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      12-01-2008, 08:48 PM   #199
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Quote:
Originally Posted by enigma View Post
I'm just tired of people talking about what RPM a turbo spools at as if that is the same thing as lag. Its not. The little 1.8l I4 I have doesn't make any real power until 6200. Does it have lag, nope. It has a narrow powerband.

Lag is the delay from when you press the accelerator to when the engine reaches is peak power FOR THE CURRENT RPM. Turbo cars suffer from much more of a delay than NA cars since when going from low to high power the turbine has to accelerate to working speed in addition to all the other things a NA or supercharged car might need to do.

Far too many people here and elsewhere confuse the 335s very wide powerband with an absence of lag.

The flip side is I have seen the lag present in cars like the 335 make drivers think they are better than they are as the gradual build of power from when you hit the gas in effects filters their harsh throttle inputs and gives the effect of rolling on the gas gently.
Look, whatever way you want to label it go right ahead.

I think the majority of people refer to the "delay" before the turbo spools as lag. I'm not going go through and count how many times the word lag was used, but obviously it is something to consider in turbo cars.

The RPM at which a turbo spools is pretty important stuff.
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      12-02-2008, 01:22 PM   #200
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I said it before but no one commented.....the important part when driving an MT is a sharp throttle, I've yet to drive a turboed car that had the pinpoint throttle control that my E46 M3 did. If BMW can achieve that, then I'm all for a Turbo ///M car, but if they can't then it's going to involve a compromise not everyone will be willing to make.
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      12-02-2008, 06:14 PM   #201
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Quote:
Originally Posted by enigma View Post
Compare the throttle response of the E46 M3 to the 335. The E46 wins hands down.
I believe this has more to do with the ///M tune than anything else. If BMW decides to produce a turbocharged ///M car, I highly doubt that the throttle response will suffer.
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Originally Posted by Moderato View Post
I said it before but no one commented.....the important part when driving an MT is a sharp throttle, I've yet to drive a turboed car that had the pinpoint throttle control that my E46 M3 did. If BMW can achieve that, then I'm all for a Turbo ///M car, but if they can't then it's going to involve a compromise not everyone will be willing to make.
Well said!
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      12-02-2008, 06:24 PM   #202
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sedan_Clan View Post
I believe this has more to do with the ///M tune than anything else. If BMW decides to produce a turbocharged ///M car, I highly doubt that the throttle response will suffer.
All they would need to do is find a way to accelerate the turbine from slow to full speed instantly.


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      12-02-2008, 06:53 PM   #203
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Listen, this turbo lag is being blown out of all proportions. Who here has driven either a RS6 or a 997tt, I for one have and compared to any other 'turbo' engined car they are both pretty instant on the throttle response. Would it be as instant as a well judge throttle like comes in an M3, probably not but it's not the dreadful thing that some here are saying it is.

For heaven sake I have yet to hear one review complain or make a comment regarding either cars throttle response which proves my point. Anyway there is numerous other advantages of having turbo or supercharging which more than outweigh the minor concerns of a throttle not being as instant as before.

P.S.
Sticking your head in the sand or your fingers in your ears will not make the inevitable go away, BMW like every other will have to shift to FI in the future.
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      12-02-2008, 07:04 PM   #204
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got power?

wow, very good discussion here.

I can't imagine what kind of discussions will take place when cars go electric.....they will, eventually.

hopefully I'll live long enough to witness it.
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      12-02-2008, 08:13 PM   #205
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mkoesel View Post
It seems like you misread my post completely though. I don't know how you read that I was suggesting BMW would get rid of the M Division. It's hard to critique my own words of course, but I tried to pick out any piece of what I wrote that could somehow be construed as me saying that the M Division was going away and I simply cannot understand how it could be interpreted that way. I'd be happy to clarify though, if you can point me to which part of my post made you think that I claimed that.
my mistake, when i read what you wrote before about BMW using BMW performance parts and what not i assumed you implied them getting rid of their M division. however i still disagree with your explanation, but like you said no one knows, so we will have to wait and see.


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Originally Posted by mkoesel View Post
However, if a year ago someone posted to this forum and said BMW is making an X6 "M"and it will use an N64-based motor, few will agree with that person, and furthermore that person will get flamed.
well i for one would have supported that person. unlike pretty much everyone on this forum i actually think its about time BMW got into the "high performance SUV" market and show everyone how its done correctly.
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      12-02-2008, 09:19 PM   #206
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Quote:
Originally Posted by footie View Post
Anyway there is numerous other advantages of having turbo or supercharging which more than outweigh the minor concerns of a throttle not being as instant as before.
I would be fine with that option. Its the right one for a sports car.
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      12-02-2008, 10:49 PM   #207
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ILLCOMM View Post
FI = more efficient
FI = more power and torque
FI = cheaper
FI = lighter

Why all the hate?
Uneven power delivery making the car handling interesting if you are mid turn as the turbos kick in.
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      12-02-2008, 11:05 PM   #208
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Quote:
Originally Posted by footie View Post
Listen, this turbo lag is being blown out of all proportions. Who here has driven either a RS6 or a 997tt, I for one have and compared to any other 'turbo' engined car they are both pretty instant on the throttle response. Would it be as instant as a well judge throttle like comes in an M3, probably not but it's not the dreadful thing that some here are saying it is.

For heaven sake I have yet to hear one review complain or make a comment regarding either cars throttle response which proves my point. Anyway there is numerous other advantages of having turbo or supercharging which more than outweigh the minor concerns of a throttle not being as instant as before.

P.S.
Sticking your head in the sand or your fingers in your ears will not make the inevitable go away, BMW like every other will have to shift to FI in the future.
I have driven both cars and I certianly noticed that both cars were turbo's in the 1st few moments of driving both.
The RS6 is a wonderful big sedan but certianly not a sports car because of its size & weight and because of the automatic the response issues of a turbo are very well masked and makes this into a extremly competent year round fast sedan.It still has the issue of when it is at high boost levels small changes in the throttle opening make non proportional changes in the power output and this also applies to the 997 TT.I like like the 997TT an aweful lot but if it was my money buying ,it would a new C2s for everyday as I think it is a much more of a drivers car than the TT.I guess that I like having a much more linear power delivery than A FI engine can offer at this point in time.
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      12-02-2008, 11:29 PM   #209
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Quote:
Originally Posted by enigma View Post
I would be fine with that option. Its the right one for a sports car.
turbo > supercharging any day
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      12-02-2008, 11:34 PM   #210
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Quote:
Originally Posted by duk View Post
turbo > supercharging any day
Depends...

Gordon Murray for example believes supercharging makes more sense for a sports car. Hence the choices he made during the development of the SLR.

I think the word of the McLraren F1 designer carries some weight.

Just depends on the application, motor, etc, lots of variables and goals to take into consideration.
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      12-02-2008, 11:45 PM   #211
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sticky View Post
Depends...

Gordon Murray for example believes supercharging makes more sense for a sports car. Hence the choices he made during the development of the SLR.

I think the word of the McLraren F1 designer carries some weight.

Just depends on the application, motor, etc, lots of variables and goals to take into consideration.
yes it does depend, however that was more of my personal choice hehe
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      12-03-2008, 03:37 AM   #212
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sticky View Post
Depends...

Gordon Murray for example believes supercharging makes more sense for a sports car. Hence the choices he made during the development of the SLR.

I think the word of the McLraren F1 designer carries some weight.

Just depends on the application, motor, etc, lots of variables and goals to take into consideration.
Gordon Murray is God.
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      12-03-2008, 04:50 AM   #213
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Quote:
Originally Posted by enigma View Post
I would be fine with that option. Its the right one for a sports car.
I too feel the same way, supercharging is more instant in it throttle response than turbocharging and the accompanying power curve can be made to mimic that of N/A engines with of course the added lift of the boosting. Many people disregarded the new S4 because of the shift to a V6 with compressor but as yet no one who has driven to thing has anything other than praise of the way it performs with the possible exception being the noise.

I would personally feel happier with a compressor attached to the new M3 than a turbo but I doubt BMW will go that way.
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      12-03-2008, 07:49 AM   #214
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Quote:
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well i for one would have supported that person. unlike pretty much everyone on this forum i actually think its about time BMW got into the "high performance SUV" market and show everyone how its done correctly.
However, BMW can enter the high performance SUV market without an X6 M. In fact, they have done it in the past with the X5 4.6si and X5 4.8si. Their official explanation for this was always that an SUV cannot offer all of the characteristics of a vehicle that wears the M badge. So, now they have made an about-face. This essentially means that they have decided that the M brand is too valuable to restrict it to products that meet a certain criteria. Instead, they will loosen their standards and allow more vehicles to be labeled M, even if it means changing the message of the brand. It really is a big turn of events. As I said before, I suspect there is at least one more big "180" coming, and probably more than that. But we'll have to wait and see. And whether these changes mean that much of the current M target market is abandoned in favor of a newer (no doubt larger, either way) one, we cannot yet say.
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      12-03-2008, 08:33 AM   #215
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Well the V8 TT 450+hp X6 M & X5 M are coming to Australia in 2009, I currently also have a TT Diesel X5 Sports with 600nm, this is my third deisel X5 sports and for me its enough power, damn it does over 200kph and weighs 2 & 1/2 ton, but also gets good fuel economy. The brakes & rotors on my current X5 diesel are larger the current V8 model

I just don't see the need for this powerful SUV with a 450+hp V8 TT, they may sell alot but the price of fuel is going to go back up as sure as the sun will rise tomorrow and there not cheap to run. The diesel has more power than the current V8 X5 and gets twice the fuel economy. The V8 TT X5 might be a big seller in the States but not in Australia.

And as for what type of motor will be in the next M3, who knows. I do know that new Audi R8 coming to Australia is going to have the V12 diesel TT option as well as the V10 petrol and there bring in a vert model as well. The V12 diesel is the motor that they raced last year and they say it will have close to 1000nm, who needs a petrol V8 TT, damn that thing will be a monster!

So as far as I am thinking my next sports type car will need to be something new, get away from the square box thinking. BMW put a high revving V8 into the M3, that was different to the last M3 (e46) which in turn was different to the previous M3 before that and they are all quite exciting to drive. I am not sure the next M3 will be exciting to drive if it gets heavier and with more weight in the frontend with a slower revving V8 TT.

Sounds like the M3 is turning into a AMG and loosing it's track car features which I hope does not happen because to me that's not what a M3 is! In that case they may as well put the M3 badge on the 335 TT or 135 TT!
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      12-03-2008, 12:07 PM   #216
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Gearhead999s View Post
I have driven both cars and I certianly noticed that both cars were turbo's in the 1st few moments of driving both.
The RS6 is a wonderful big sedan but certianly not a sports car because of its size & weight and because of the automatic the response issues of a turbo are very well masked and makes this into a extremly competent year round fast sedan.It still has the issue of when it is at high boost levels small changes in the throttle opening make non proportional changes in the power output and this also applies to the 997 TT.I like like the 997TT an aweful lot but if it was my money buying ,it would a new C2s for everyday as I think it is a much more of a drivers car than the TT.I guess that I like having a much more linear power delivery than A FI engine can offer at this point in time.

You are talking about the C5 RS6, great car but not nearly as good as the new C6 RS6 with regards to throttle response and power delivery. It in my opinion is much better than the 997tt, it feels instant, not dissimilar to the M3.

Admittedly we are talking a very big engine with small turbos which aren't really being worked hard but it's still amazing how linear the delivery of the power is and in no way would you guess it was anyway other than N/A.

I don't know if you will get the RS6 in Canada but if it comes I recommend a test drive if only to experience the way it's power is delivered. It and the 335i are two cars which show the how to apply turbos successfully.
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      12-03-2008, 12:20 PM   #217
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Quote:
Originally Posted by footie View Post
You are talking about the C5 RS6, great car but not nearly as good as the new C6 RS6 with regards to throttle response and power delivery. It in my opinion is much better than the 997tt, it feels instant, not dissimilar to the M3.

Admittedly we are talking a very big engine with small turbos which aren't really being worked hard but it's still amazing how linear the delivery of the power is and in no way would you guess it was anyway other than N/A.

I don't know if you will get the RS6 in Canada but if it comes I recommend a test drive if only to experience the way it's power is delivered. It and the 335i are two cars which show the how to apply turbos successfully.
The new RS6 is not coming to Canada and there were only 70something of the old ones so I guess I will never experiance the power delivery in this country.My wifes 335 has very good power delivery for a turbo car but does not have the linear power delivery like a good N/A engine does and I am not talking about turbo lag(which the N54 has very little of).I guess I am spoiled as I grew up around large displacement V8's when set up properlly had very fluid power deliveries.
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      12-03-2008, 02:15 PM   #218
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Originally Posted by Gearhead999s View Post
The new RS6 is not coming to Canada and there were only 70something of the old ones so I guess I will never experiance the power delivery in this country.My wifes 335 has very good power delivery for a turbo car but does not have the linear power delivery like a good N/A engine does and I am not talking about turbo lag(which the N54 has very little of).I guess I am spoiled as I grew up around large displacement V8's when set up properlly had very fluid power deliveries.
That's a shame, I think you would like the way the new RS6 performs. It's got a lovely delivery and I can't think of too many cars which feel as strong.
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      12-03-2008, 02:24 PM   #219
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That's a shame, I think you would like the way the new RS6 performs. It's got a lovely delivery and I can't think of too many cars which feel as strong.
A RS5 could be in the future to replace the 335 however!
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      12-03-2008, 05:30 PM   #220
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If they do, I want big cheesy TURBO stickers to be standard!
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