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      04-08-2017, 07:35 PM   #1
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Test drove '17 Porsche 911 Carrera & BMW M4

It's a beautiful and sunny day up here in the North East. I'm in Toronto, Canada.
Because the weather is so nice I decided, quite spontaneously, to grab one of my car friends (chipped 335 e90) and to test drive some cars.

I've been trying to convince him to get an E92 M3 for years, and his whole rebuttal has always been, no I would prefer a Porsche. Not really a rebuttal given the price difference, but I suppose there's an element of friendly rivalry there.

After all of these years I finally dragged him to the dealership.

Obviously the customer service experience was excellent because it's a very premium brand. You get free drinks and snacks. They have one of the top tiered Nespresso machines with disks (instead of pods), and little Porsche branded napkins to match. Oh, and a well dressed bartender.

This is all well and good, but it took almost one hour before we were in a car. Something about calling ahead.

After much walking around and drooling, they put us into a 2017 Carrera, NON-S. It's 375ish HP, much lighter than my E92 M3 (low 3000-3100 pound range I think.)

Both of us were quite impressed with the car. It's way lower than the E92 M3, way lower. Once you sit inside you realize how driver oriented, and tight the cabin is. Everything feels incredibly intimate, high quality soft touch surfaces (leather wrapped,) and a dash that is quite low to give you excellent visibility up front. I can't say the same for the rearview mirror, the visibility was below average, but it wasn't a big deal.

I really liked the paddle shifters on this car compared to my own, because they felt a little easier to click. The chassis felt incredibly composed and it wasn't a world apart from my M3 but it was substantially more immediate because of the weight difference.

The performance was really good. While I was asking for a naturally aspirated engine, all of the new 2017 are Turbo and so we were out of luck there. Even though it was a turbo the exhaust sounded pretty decent. No where near the S65 character, but it was louder and had a good burble and pop on deceleration.

The test drive was short, but I did gun it once and it was very linear and torquey. Definitely felt faster than the M3. I'm only saying that because most of my car's life is spent under 7,000 RPM where it really shines. In a race the M might take it, who knows.

The PDK felt crisper than the DCT and the gauge cluster, although analog was quicker than the E92 one so it felt better than it does in the M3. Probably with GTS tune it would match the PDK.

Overall the Porsche felt like an upgrade. That being said $120K or $140K (Canadian.) it wasn't 3x better than my $45,000 car. (2011 DCT)

Shortly after this we went down the road to BMW. After being greeted by a very nice lady, and having some generic coffee (not that it matters ) we were in a car within 15 minutes.

Within those 15 minutes we checked out the new 5 series which I have to say isn't really better looking that it's predecessor. But I digress.

Also, we sat in an I8 which was an amazing experience.

After our brief wait the M4 was here. It was a DCT model with all of the connected drive options and no extended leather.

We were introduced to a young guy who was going to show us the car. He was very nice and relaxed and I decided he should drive first. My friend would ride shotgun and I would sit in the back.

As I opened the passenger door and went to pull the seat forward I couldn't really get to it easily because the B pillar was in the way and the seat was too far back. After some hard pulling and an awkward angle I managed to pull it forward. No only is the handle in a worse spot, but the < > buttons are on the back. This makes it awkward and not-intuitive for first time passengers to perform this procedure. On the E92 it's on the top where it should be!

Anyway once that was over with, I sat in the back. Going from a Fox Red E92 Coupe, into a 2017 M4 coupe, it immediately felt smaller out back. I didn't take measurements, but it felt worse. The centre console was less elaborate, the side arm rests were smaller and everything just felt significantly less premium. Some part of that might have been the black interior.

Being drive around felt good and smooth but there was nothing in the back of this 100,000 dollar car to suggest that it was anything more special than a Camry.

Once the sales guy took a spin, it was my friend's turn. During the swap I went up to the passenger seat. From here I immediately noticed that everything felt super plasticky and cheap. The nice E92 coupe door compartments that are wrapped in fake suede and even have ridges to hold smaller items. GONE! Instead an ugly hole where a drink might fit. The same hole that is on every other car.

The dashboard felt okay except that the plastic texturing just screamed cheap. Don't get me wrong this same plastic is on the E92 but yet somehow it isn't so pronounced. On the E92 there is a long bar which goes across with Carbon Leather and a bit of stitching which soft of increases the percieved quality level.

The screen and IDrive looked nice. The cup holder, while technically better than the E92, in that they don't soak their passenger, were ugly. I can't hide them, I just have to stare at them all of the time. They look like every other car on the market, and every similar to my 2001 Neon. The first car I ever owned.

The sun visors were the same cheap Vinyl that is on my 2011 M3. I understand penny pinching took effect after the 2010 MY. However, opening up the visor leads to this super cheap white, plastic LED light. Not a big deal, but it's the same quality as what they carry in the dollar store.

Before we even set off, there was a glaring flaw. The little arm that hands your seat belt on the E92. It isn't there! Does it sometimes screw up? YES. Does it help grab the seatbelt when the B pillar is far away, UNDENIABLY. Not only was it missing, the B pillar felt further back than on the E92.

I know some of you guys rip on this feature, but it's useful, and shows that someone was thinking about you when they designed the car. The design and materials of that arm on the E92 are no where to be found on the new cars.

While my friend drove, I felt a lot of torque and the car was undeniably faster than the E92. That being said, it sounded like garbage.

After a brief drive, it was my turn.

From the driver's perspective the cabin was an upgrade over the E92. The gauges looked better and it felt newer and more modern. However, the centre console still didn't really impress. It felt like a normal car, wheres the E92 with Nav, Carbon Leather with stitching, and the taller dash, it feels more muscular and less average. Probably I wouldn't be complaining if the M4 has a stitched dash, which I know is an option.

As I set off to drive, it felt very similar to the E92. The paddles were nicer, the chassis was the same, the steering albeit electric, was decent. It didn't communicate quite as well as the E92 but it was well weighted to simulate the effect.

One aspect that I really enjoyed was the Heads Up Display. It was very bright, crisp and in the perfect spot.

While gunning it a couple of times, there's no doubt that the car was fast! That being said, I set it up in the same M profile which I use in the E92 and the super exotic downshifts that I'm used to, sounded like absolute garbage in the M4. It sounded like a poorly tuned up 335, and not special. On several downshifts my friend and I both made disgusted faces. Not only did it sound bad, but we could hear it on the speakers and that made it worse.

While the Porsche was turbo, it sounded SO MUCH BETTER! The M4 was simply a droney bass note, meanwhile the S65 is a Tenor Saxophone.

With an intake, the downshifts on a DCT S65 put a smile on my face every day and anyone around knows that the car is special. If you drive one every day, you might get bored after a while but trust me, unless you get into an Italian Exotic, or a Porsche, you will be downgrading your car.

Sure you next car might have lane departure warning, and blind spot detection so you can text and not crash, but if it's a BMW or anything short of Porsche, Ferrari, Lambo etc... it will be a step back.

I really wanted to like the M4 but it felt less special, less expensive, less thought out. While it was faster, it didn't feel anywhere near as cool.

Over all the 911 felt like an upgrade in every way, expect for the exhaust tone. But it was pretty good.

The M4 felt like a downgrade in every way, except the Navigation system. (NBT EVO, etc.)

Sorry for the long rant. Congrats for making it down this far.

Driving the S65 back home, made me appreciate its character so much more than I have in a very long time.

Last edited by The-Traveler; 04-08-2017 at 07:43 PM.
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      04-08-2017, 08:50 PM   #2
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long one, read half of it,,,

porsche is beyond bmw and benz.

m4, i drove in bmw driving center 3rd one in korea.

if i want to neck win others, not a nad choic to go but

what would be difference double-vanos turboed = porsche turbo,,,

i circuited m4 maybe 20times, i almost slept thru,

am i on the same line with m4???
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      04-08-2017, 10:56 PM   #3
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"I understand penny pinching took effect after the 2010 MY"

Big time cuts and restructurations took place at BMW in 2010 following the 2009 bansksters market crash (about when they were getting into designing the M4 powerplant). It marked the end of the M division's autonomy in designing bespoke engines (S65, S85). It is also around that time that the massive M brand dillution exploded , no doubt an aggressively planned marketing trick to liquidate whatever value had been accumulated in the M division logo, with total disregard for owners of actual M cars. In Germany M car owners tend to be more subdued and some would rather option 'delete' the M distinctive logo to go stealthy but it is totally the opposite in the USA were people want their M logo conspicuous and messing around the M logo to confuse and win customers is negatively perceived by the M cars buyers segment.


" It sounded like a poorly tuned up 335"
It is (!) a tuned up very mildly modified 335 N55 engine with a Mitsubishi bi-turbo ( hello japanese cars !)

"we could hear it on the speakers "

That BMW persisted with that fake engine sound chip in the cabin says something about their lack of faith in the S55 engine. You'd think they'd On/Off optioned it after the despised , dejected reaction it got all across the board, but no. Got to be some German stubborness to persist against general reprobation

"While the Porsche was turbo it sounded SO MUCH BETTER!"

the m4 would probably win award for worst sounding turbo car over $75k (GT-R, Porsche, Mercedes) if there was one.

"a droney bass note"
the infamous lazy cow mow.

"The M4 felt like a downgrade in every way, except the Navigation system. (NBT EVO, etc.) "

You got that right. How could they possibly make an upgrade starting from an N55 engine (335i), 3.0 liters with only minimal changes and slapping a mitsubishi biturbo on it + doing cuts in interior materials and processes. As we know speed is not that important, character is. The M4 ranks behind the V8 M3 in character and has no long lasting effect to make up for it.

The 2018 M5 will be 4WD with controls to decouple the front differential to make it RWD. Engine will be 4.0 liter turbo. From that you can infer that the next M3/4 will be 4WD (12 years lagging behind the GT-R !!) probably 3.2-3.4 liters coupled with an electric engine hybridation. The E92 is bound to become a legendary model as its *positive* differentiation will only accentuate with age. The F8x M4 on the other hand will have a very hard time being only similar but not as good as the next turbo engine.

The E9x M3 will eventually become more valuable and desirable than the F8x M4/3, I have no doubt about it.

Last edited by Rajmun340; 04-08-2017 at 11:17 PM.
      04-09-2017, 12:52 AM   #4
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Really appreciate this write up/ review. I really love my M3 but also long for a 911. I am almost afraid to drive one as that starts down the path to ownership..
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      04-09-2017, 01:43 AM   #5
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Porche makes a great car but I really just loooooove the S65! It's a Bavarian's version of the Chevy small block or Ford 302 as far as I see. Cool lil V8 in a sweet E92 skin!
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      04-09-2017, 03:41 AM   #6
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Nice write up OP!
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      04-09-2017, 04:10 AM   #7
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I was considering an M4 after I sold my E90 M3 in December, but I ended up going with a 2007 911 Turbo instead. I test drove an M4, and while I was impressed with most aspects of it, they just aren't anything special, and everyone and their brother has one. Same goes for the E9x these days it seems, but at least that S65 was something special, and with a supercharger they were monsters (I still miss mine).

The M4 beats the E9x in many ways. Looks (subjective), performance, interior, overall build quality; they're all a step up in the newer M3/M4. As I said, my E90 was supercharged, so the M4 didn't impress me too much as far as performance goes, but stock:stock, the M4 was undeniably the faster of the two. The exhaust note was garbage, and left something to be desired, but every car has it's faults.

Don't get me wrong, I truly enjoyed the M4, and was close to pulling the trigger on one, but I don't think I would've remained happy with it in a year or so. Like I said, it wasn't special. It's hard to explain, and I can't explain it, but I didn't feel right in the M4. Maybe it's because I already had two ///M cars before it, and I wanted something different and more exotic. Maybe it was because you see them everywhere, especially over here in Germany. American's buy them as soon as they get off the plane because it's the car to have over here. I see at least 4 or 5 a day driving around on base. I would've loved the M4 as a daily driver, and still would, but as a weekend cruiser/track toy, I would've gotten bored with it and eventually wanted to upgrade, and the 911 is a huge upgrade, even my 10 year old Turbo (sans interior quality) feels so much more special driving around in, and I can count on one hand the 911 Turbo's/GT2's/GT3's I've seen driving around over here "in the wild" in my 3 years in Germany, opposed to hundreds of ///M cars. You see them at car shows and at the Nurburgring, but just driving around daily, not nearly as much.

You drove an entry level Carrera, the bottom end 911 and you feel that strongly about Porsche vs. BMW. Imagine how you would feel if you got in a GT3, or even an older (997) GT2/Turbo model. Not trying to talk down on BMW, but Porsche is a huge upgrade in every way.
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      04-09-2017, 04:42 AM   #8
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Thanks for the post. Good Sunday reading. Haven't driven M4, but your post makes me appreciate my M3 even more.
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      04-10-2017, 02:01 PM   #9
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I have mixed feelings about the 991.2 turbocharged base model. I had a 2017 base carrera for a business trip and the thing that outshined my E92 M3 was the light chassis. On factory suspension and brand new Pirelli P Zero tires, the car was ROCK SOLID on highway onramps and offramps. The suspension was far more compliant on expansion joints and uneven surfaces too.

My car is on Ohlins RT and Pilot Sport Cup 2 but could not hold a corner on any day better than the Carrera. That 375 hp turbo motor in the Carrera has torque and a more usable delivery of power than the S55 motor but perhaps due to the Porsche not having the optional sport exhaust, the straight line acceleration felt quite muted (no pun intended) and boring compared to the M3 acceleration coupled with my Akra Evo.

Another weak point of the base Carrera is the drivetrain response. It just had no sense of urgency but the car is extremely friendly to drive. Ergonomics are amazing in the Porsche. The seat goes very low and far back, yet the steering wheel telescopes out super far so you can sit properly as a tall person. The Carrera standard seat is far too narrow though, leaving zero bolstering for shoulders. They do not compare to Recaro Sportster/performance seats. They are probably even less comfortable than the stock M3 seat despite having optimal seating position.

Anyway, I love how the F80 M3 looks and the M4 a bit less, especially with the E92 M3 showing a bit of age...but I am not a buyer of the base Carrera on any day. By the time I could justify buying a Carrera 4S or Targa 4S, I would undoubtedly push an extra 20k and get a GT3 anyway. I appreciate the F8X but I am also not interested in owning any turbocharged car that isn't a 911 Turbo or other larger turbocharged sedan where it's designed to be more of a straight line car anyway where having turbos isn't a total drag.

For now, it's going to be quite difficult to knock my M3 out of ownership.
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      04-10-2017, 02:30 PM   #10
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great write up. I was in the market for a F82 but felt like it had no soul compared to the E92.
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      04-10-2017, 02:55 PM   #11
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Great write up. Sounds like a great way to spend a sunny day after a long dark winter
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      04-10-2017, 05:36 PM   #12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rat3d ///M View Post
I was considering an M4 after I sold my E90 M3 in December, but I ended up going with a 2007 911 Turbo instead. I test drove an M4, and while I was impressed with most aspects of it, they just aren't anything special, and everyone and their brother has one. Same goes for the E9x these days it seems, but at least that S65 was something special, and with a supercharger they were monsters (I still miss mine).

The M4 beats the E9x in many ways. Looks (subjective), performance, interior, overall build quality; they're all a step up in the newer M3/M4. As I said, my E90 was supercharged, so the M4 didn't impress me too much as far as performance goes, but stock:stock, the M4 was undeniably the faster of the two. The exhaust note was garbage, and left something to be desired, but every car has it's faults.

Don't get me wrong, I truly enjoyed the M4, and was close to pulling the trigger on one, but I don't think I would've remained happy with it in a year or so. Like I said, it wasn't special. It's hard to explain, and I can't explain it, but I didn't feel right in the M4. Maybe it's because I already had two ///M cars before it, and I wanted something different and more exotic. Maybe it was because you see them everywhere, especially over here in Germany. American's buy them as soon as they get off the plane because it's the car to have over here. I see at least 4 or 5 a day driving around on base. I would've loved the M4 as a daily driver, and still would, but as a weekend cruiser/track toy, I would've gotten bored with it and eventually wanted to upgrade, and the 911 is a huge upgrade, even my 10 year old Turbo (sans interior quality) feels so much more special driving around in, and I can count on one hand the 911 Turbo's/GT2's/GT3's I've seen driving around over here "in the wild" in my 3 years in Germany, opposed to hundreds of ///M cars. You see them at car shows and at the Nurburgring, but just driving around daily, not nearly as much.

You drove an entry level Carrera, the bottom end 911 and you feel that strongly about Porsche vs. BMW. Imagine how you would feel if you got in a GT3, or even an older (997) GT2/Turbo model. Not trying to talk down on BMW, but Porsche is a huge upgrade in every way.
M4 looks better than E92....Oh hell no. That bungled-up rear-end and straight front hood line on the M4 LOL...like you said, subjective.

Completely agree Porsche is in another league - and it should be given pricing.
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      04-11-2017, 02:46 AM   #13
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Typer0318 View Post
long one, read half of it,,,

porsche is beyond bmw and benz.

m4, i drove in bmw driving center 3rd one in korea.

if i want to neck win others, not a nad choic to go but

what would be difference double-vanos turboed = porsche turbo,,,

i circuited m4 maybe 20times, i almost slept thru,

am i on the same line with m4???

If you are only going to read half a post, what makes you think that you can respond intelligently to all of it?
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      04-11-2017, 02:49 AM   #14
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Quote:
Originally Posted by timothy2001 View Post
Really appreciate this write up/ review. I really love my M3 but also long for a 911. I am almost afraid to drive one as that starts down the path to ownership..
It didn't for me. I came close to buying a 911 Carrera, but in the final analysis, my M3 was slightly better in all performance aspects and had the added bonus of having a real back seat and trunk.
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      04-11-2017, 08:38 PM   #15
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Thank you guys! I really appreciate everyones' positive comments.
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      04-13-2017, 10:20 AM   #16
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Quote:
Originally Posted by The-Traveler View Post
It's a beautiful and sunny day up here in the North East. I'm in Toronto, Canada.
Because the weather is so nice I decided, quite spontaneously, to grab one of my car friends (chipped 335 e90) and to test drive some cars.

I've been trying to convince him to get an E92 M3 for years, and his whole rebuttal has always been, no I would prefer a Porsche. Not really a rebuttal given the price difference, but I suppose there's an element of friendly rivalry there.

After all of these years I finally dragged him to the dealership.

Obviously the customer service experience was excellent because it's a very premium brand. You get free drinks and snacks. They have one of the top tiered Nespresso machines with disks (instead of pods), and little Porsche branded napkins to match. Oh, and a well dressed bartender.

This is all well and good, but it took almost one hour before we were in a car. Something about calling ahead.

After much walking around and drooling, they put us into a 2017 Carrera, NON-S. It's 375ish HP, much lighter than my E92 M3 (low 3000-3100 pound range I think.)

Both of us were quite impressed with the car. It's way lower than the E92 M3, way lower. Once you sit inside you realize how driver oriented, and tight the cabin is. Everything feels incredibly intimate, high quality soft touch surfaces (leather wrapped,) and a dash that is quite low to give you excellent visibility up front. I can't say the same for the rearview mirror, the visibility was below average, but it wasn't a big deal.

I really liked the paddle shifters on this car compared to my own, because they felt a little easier to click. The chassis felt incredibly composed and it wasn't a world apart from my M3 but it was substantially more immediate because of the weight difference.

The performance was really good. While I was asking for a naturally aspirated engine, all of the new 2017 are Turbo and so we were out of luck there. Even though it was a turbo the exhaust sounded pretty decent. No where near the S65 character, but it was louder and had a good burble and pop on deceleration.

The test drive was short, but I did gun it once and it was very linear and torquey. Definitely felt faster than the M3. I'm only saying that because most of my car's life is spent under 7,000 RPM where it really shines. In a race the M might take it, who knows.

The PDK felt crisper than the DCT and the gauge cluster, although analog was quicker than the E92 one so it felt better than it does in the M3. Probably with GTS tune it would match the PDK.

Overall the Porsche felt like an upgrade. That being said $120K or $140K (Canadian.) it wasn't 3x better than my $45,000 car. (2011 DCT)

Shortly after this we went down the road to BMW. After being greeted by a very nice lady, and having some generic coffee (not that it matters ) we were in a car within 15 minutes.

Within those 15 minutes we checked out the new 5 series which I have to say isn't really better looking that it's predecessor. But I digress.

Also, we sat in an I8 which was an amazing experience.

After our brief wait the M4 was here. It was a DCT model with all of the connected drive options and no extended leather.

We were introduced to a young guy who was going to show us the car. He was very nice and relaxed and I decided he should drive first. My friend would ride shotgun and I would sit in the back.

As I opened the passenger door and went to pull the seat forward I couldn't really get to it easily because the B pillar was in the way and the seat was too far back. After some hard pulling and an awkward angle I managed to pull it forward. No only is the handle in a worse spot, but the < > buttons are on the back. This makes it awkward and not-intuitive for first time passengers to perform this procedure. On the E92 it's on the top where it should be!

Anyway once that was over with, I sat in the back. Going from a Fox Red E92 Coupe, into a 2017 M4 coupe, it immediately felt smaller out back. I didn't take measurements, but it felt worse. The centre console was less elaborate, the side arm rests were smaller and everything just felt significantly less premium. Some part of that might have been the black interior.

Being drive around felt good and smooth but there was nothing in the back of this 100,000 dollar car to suggest that it was anything more special than a Camry.

Once the sales guy took a spin, it was my friend's turn. During the swap I went up to the passenger seat. From here I immediately noticed that everything felt super plasticky and cheap. The nice E92 coupe door compartments that are wrapped in fake suede and even have ridges to hold smaller items. GONE! Instead an ugly hole where a drink might fit. The same hole that is on every other car.

The dashboard felt okay except that the plastic texturing just screamed cheap. Don't get me wrong this same plastic is on the E92 but yet somehow it isn't so pronounced. On the E92 there is a long bar which goes across with Carbon Leather and a bit of stitching which soft of increases the percieved quality level.

The screen and IDrive looked nice. The cup holder, while technically better than the E92, in that they don't soak their passenger, were ugly. I can't hide them, I just have to stare at them all of the time. They look like every other car on the market, and every similar to my 2001 Neon. The first car I ever owned.

The sun visors were the same cheap Vinyl that is on my 2011 M3. I understand penny pinching took effect after the 2010 MY. However, opening up the visor leads to this super cheap white, plastic LED light. Not a big deal, but it's the same quality as what they carry in the dollar store.

Before we even set off, there was a glaring flaw. The little arm that hands your seat belt on the E92. It isn't there! Does it sometimes screw up? YES. Does it help grab the seatbelt when the B pillar is far away, UNDENIABLY. Not only was it missing, the B pillar felt further back than on the E92.

I know some of you guys rip on this feature, but it's useful, and shows that someone was thinking about you when they designed the car. The design and materials of that arm on the E92 are no where to be found on the new cars.

While my friend drove, I felt a lot of torque and the car was undeniably faster than the E92. That being said, it sounded like garbage.

After a brief drive, it was my turn.

From the driver's perspective the cabin was an upgrade over the E92. The gauges looked better and it felt newer and more modern. However, the centre console still didn't really impress. It felt like a normal car, wheres the E92 with Nav, Carbon Leather with stitching, and the taller dash, it feels more muscular and less average. Probably I wouldn't be complaining if the M4 has a stitched dash, which I know is an option.

As I set off to drive, it felt very similar to the E92. The paddles were nicer, the chassis was the same, the steering albeit electric, was decent. It didn't communicate quite as well as the E92 but it was well weighted to simulate the effect.

One aspect that I really enjoyed was the Heads Up Display. It was very bright, crisp and in the perfect spot.

While gunning it a couple of times, there's no doubt that the car was fast! That being said, I set it up in the same M profile which I use in the E92 and the super exotic downshifts that I'm used to, sounded like absolute garbage in the M4. It sounded like a poorly tuned up 335, and not special. On several downshifts my friend and I both made disgusted faces. Not only did it sound bad, but we could hear it on the speakers and that made it worse.

While the Porsche was turbo, it sounded SO MUCH BETTER! The M4 was simply a droney bass note, meanwhile the S65 is a Tenor Saxophone.

With an intake, the downshifts on a DCT S65 put a smile on my face every day and anyone around knows that the car is special. If you drive one every day, you might get bored after a while but trust me, unless you get into an Italian Exotic, or a Porsche, you will be downgrading your car.

Sure you next car might have lane departure warning, and blind spot detection so you can text and not crash, but if it's a BMW or anything short of Porsche, Ferrari, Lambo etc... it will be a step back.

I really wanted to like the M4 but it felt less special, less expensive, less thought out. While it was faster, it didn't feel anywhere near as cool.

Over all the 911 felt like an upgrade in every way, expect for the exhaust tone. But it was pretty good.

The M4 felt like a downgrade in every way, except the Navigation system. (NBT EVO, etc.)

Sorry for the long rant. Congrats for making it down this far.

Driving the S65 back home, made me appreciate its character so much more than I have in a very long time.
The new rules from BMWCCA and BMWCCC now ban any cars with these features so, having them not necessarily a good thing either.
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      04-13-2017, 03:46 PM   #17
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Quote:
Originally Posted by drchuck72 View Post
The new rules from BMWCCA and BMWCCC now ban any cars with these features so, having them not necessarily a good thing either.
From what I've read, it's not the BMWCCA and BMWCCC that has banned these features, it's specifically the Genesee Valley Chapter of the BMWCCA.

http://www.roadandtrack.com/car-cult...its-trackdays/
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      04-13-2017, 04:10 PM   #18
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I test drove a Porsche 997.2 C2S and I loved the car! I was very close to purchasing it, to replace my e93m. However, when I drove the e92m, I felt the performance was very similar. Yes, I would give the upper hand to the C2S, but it also came with some compromises for daily driving. I would need to have a second car and it would be stored for half the year. I decided for me, the e92 was a better fit. I can drive it year round and the performance is on par.
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      04-13-2017, 05:04 PM   #19
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Awesome write-up, thanks for sharing.
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      04-13-2017, 06:26 PM   #20
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f80 sucks
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      04-18-2017, 06:10 PM   #21
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I am pretty confident that the F8x will go down as a very dark time in the annals of BMW M. It will be widely panned in the future. It's just a soulless, characterless car with immense flaws (sound, traction). It has "lease and return" written all over it. And I'm sorry, but the F8x ZCP wheels have to be among the most ugly wheels BMW has ever designed.

The E92 M3 has to be on the Mt. Rushmore of cars in BMW's history. The chassis, engine, and transmission (DCT) is just other-worldly engineering for the mid-2000s when it was designed. The only fly in the ointment is the bearings. In an odd way, though, that will only add to the car's value in 10-15 years since a working, running S65 will be a unicorn in 2030 and beyond.
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      04-19-2017, 01:36 PM   #22
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911's are solid cars. Probabaly the best bang for the buck at that level of vehice.
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