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      11-11-2008, 10:21 AM   #1
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Turner Motorsport Claim + 40 Whp (Cat.Delet/Reprog.)

I have came across this Tunning Company with some impressive claims.Sounds to me that they have succeded similar resaults with Noelle Motorsport in a American Price Tag.Delete of the First Catalytic Converters and ReProgramm the ECU...Does anyone have any reviw on this Company about the level of expertice on BMW over the years...?????Bottom line looks like they have managed to get 40 Wheel Horse Power with these modifications(something that Noelle (476 hp) also claims) and that alone is a something at least worthy of mentioning...




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      11-11-2008, 10:56 AM   #2
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Don't know about the accuracy of the gains they claim but Turner is a very well respected company when it comes to building and racing BMWs.
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      11-11-2008, 11:03 AM   #3
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Turner Motorsport is extremely well respected in the BMW community as they race, modify, tune, and sell BMW parts. Not unlike companies like EVOsport.....

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      11-11-2008, 11:09 AM   #4
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humm..

Well they do have a base run and and after with the mods and it is 40hp more thats a fact.. But keep in mind those dyna pack hub dyno read high... Its not a load base dyno so it doesnt put load on the tires, it just spins freely with no resistance.. Dyno Dynamics, Mustang dyno, and dyno jet (roller type)...


"Mac Daddy" Dyno Dynamics


IMO The Dyno Dynamics is one of the best Dynos out there.. Some people dont like it cuz they usally get low number.. As far as tunning the DD and the Mustang hands down.

Last edited by eagletangogreen; 11-11-2008 at 06:45 PM.
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      11-11-2008, 11:11 AM   #5
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Sorry about the curly hair on one of the dyno sheets..... LOL
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      11-11-2008, 11:56 AM   #6
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$1800 for Stage 1 software gets you 17HP/16TQ. If you want to increase rev limiter to 8600 RPM it's an additional $300! Ouch!

For stage 2 you have to get race headers to delete the front cats as well as the reprogram of the software. This will give you 40 HP/32TQ for $1900 +$300 for increasing the rev limiter to 8600 RPM.

I know that Turner is a reputable company but I'd much rather go for the AA software (also another reputable company) which has been shown by PencilGeek's Dyno results (http://www.m3post.com/forums/showthread.php?t=178680) to give you 20+HP/20+TQ for less money, granted his baseline was with Evo Pulley's and Gruppe M CAI.
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      11-11-2008, 01:26 PM   #7
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PencilGeek View Post
Let's not do this again please. I don't think you could be more wrong about how Dynapack works. When it's so easy to use the internet to do a little research, go to their web site, read how it works, it makes me wonder why or how this type of nonsense continues to propogate itself.

So, for the 20th time, here's how a Dynapack works. The Dynapack works on the EXACT same principle as a real motor dyno. It applies a hydraulic load onto the hubs to load the motor DOWN to whatever RPM you want to measure. It reads the torque at that RPM. The torque sensors are accurate to 1/10th of a foot-pound over the entire life of the product. Since there are no wheels to slip, no friction to maintain, no "smoothing functions" to select in the output screen, and the hubs attach directly to the hydraulic loader, there is no inaccuracy, no voodoo-magic, no F=M*A guestimates to infer horsepower based on mass and acceleration like you do with your intertial dynos. The Dynapack doesn't "read high" -- it reads accurate -- just like a real motor dyno.

You say the Dynapack "reads high" because it typically shows a 9-11% loss from crankshaft to hubs. But the roller dyno's read accurate when they show a 20-25% loss between crank and wheels. If a 20-25% friction loss were actually occurring, it would generate enough heat to boil the transmission oil and melt the gears. So what on earth makes you think these dynos -- that you swear by -- are even remotely accurate? Why wouldn't you trust a dyno that uses the exact same principle as a real motor dyno and is accurate to 1/10th of a foot-pound of torque?
Well said sir....you made me laugh too bro! "So, for the 20th time, here's how a Dynapack works..." hahaha...remember, patience is a virtue.
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      11-11-2008, 01:56 PM   #8
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PencilGeek View Post
Let's not do this again please. I don't think you could be more wrong about how Dynapack works. When it's so easy to use the internet to do a little research, go to their web site, read how it works, it makes me wonder why or how this type of nonsense continues to propogate itself.

So, for the 20th time, here's how a Dynapack works. The Dynapack works on the EXACT same principle as a real motor dyno. It applies a hydraulic load onto the hubs to load the motor DOWN to whatever RPM you want to measure. It reads the torque at that RPM. The torque sensors are accurate to 1/10th of a foot-pound over the entire life of the product. Since there are no wheels to slip, no friction to maintain, no "smoothing functions" to select in the output screen, and the hubs attach directly to the hydraulic loader, there is no inaccuracy, no voodoo-magic, no F=M*A guestimates to infer horsepower based on mass and acceleration like you do with your intertial dynos. The Dynapack doesn't "read high" -- it reads accurate -- just like a real motor dyno.

You say the Dynapack "reads high" because it typically shows a 9-11% loss from crankshaft to hubs. But the roller dyno's read accurate when they show a 20-25% loss between crank and wheels. If a 20-25% friction loss were actually occurring, it would generate enough heat to boil the transmission oil and melt the gears. So what on earth makes you think these dynos -- that you swear by -- are even remotely accurate? Why wouldn't you trust a dyno that uses the exact same principle as a real motor dyno and is accurate to 1/10th of a foot-pound of torque?
Whoa there guy! I could careless what dyno is better at what.. What I posted is just my opinion, take it with a grain of salt, everyone here is grown up enough to make their own conclusions.. As far as the Dynpack i yet to find a competent operator to give me some decent #'s.. Both Dynapack I have been too have recorded 75-150 hp higher, so go figure where my optimism is coming from.

Thats why i always go to the track, to see if my "Dyno numbers" are true..
Your trap speed does not lie no matter how crapy a driver you are.

I also never posted anything about any dyno being accurate

I will keep your post in mind in the event I ever decide do go back and do a pull on a Dynapack.

Cheers
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      11-11-2008, 02:02 PM   #9
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So they leave the secondary cats in? Interesting, I have been wondering if the major gain in the exhaust will be found in the primary cats. I keep hearing conflicting opinions on what the loss of backpressure without the primary will do to the low end torque.

40 wheel though? Wow...
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      11-11-2008, 03:32 PM   #10
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Headers and cat's and softwareeeeee?????40........
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      11-11-2008, 05:07 PM   #11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AlpenWhite25 View Post
I have came across this Tunning Company with some impressive claims.Sounds to me that they have succeded similar resaults with Noelle Motorsport in a American Price Tag.Delete of the First Catalytic Converters and ReProgramm the ECU...Does anyone have any reviw on this Company about the level of expertice on BMW over the years...?????Bottom line looks like they have managed to get 40 Wheel Horse Power with these modifications(something that Noelle (476 hp) also claims) and that alone is a something at least worthy of mentioning...
Well, whatever the case, with race headers, deleted front cats as well as the reprogrammed software to include 8,600 rev limiter, it may be possible to get +40bhp not IMO whp. Don't honestly know what 200 more revs will get you but who knows with all that reprogramming everywhere. A word of caution, I've not seen one reputable tuner make more than 20bhp with ECU, not Dinan, nor ACS, nor RDSport, nor GPower, etc..., etc... Also, I paid for an ECU reflash that was dynoed at 44+bhp gain (dyno is on this site) and I honestly don't think I got half that. Just my opinion!! Serves my right for working with a second rate tuner I suppose, lol! In any event and for the life of me, I just can't see what those other tuners than claim big numbers know about the engines that is not known by other very, very reputable tuners.

Quote:
Originally Posted by PencilGeek View Post
They certainly read as if they were stated as fact. You even went on to recommended other dynos and said they produced numbers that you believed in (which implies accuracy). But let's move on and possibly look into the numbers you got from the dyno....

...I'm sorry, but I do not even remotely believe that is true. And if it isn't true, then obviously driver ability plays a role in final trap speed.
+1 PencilGeek!
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      11-11-2008, 06:42 PM   #12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PencilGeek View Post
They certainly read as if they were stated as fact. You even went on to recommended other dynos and said they produced numbers that you believed in (which implies accuracy). But let's move on and possibly look into the numbers you got from the dyno.

The most accurate way to measure is using steady-state. But steady-state testing will put a lot of continuous load on your motor, and might be rather hard on it. So most people do ramp testing. If the ramp is too low (like 1 second per 1000 RPMs) then the numbers will read too LOW (not high) because the wheels are somewhat free-running. I've found that 2.5 seconds per 1000 RPMs is a good compromise. It seems to produce numbers that are very close to steady-state numbers, only a few percentage points off. How does the dyna take into account the wheels rotational mass?? Is this data inputed to correct for the missing wheels and tires?

..

You also want to look at the correction factors. The Dynapack will allow you to select one of 4 or 5 correction formulas (all based on standards-bodies such as SAE). I typically use the SAE 1349 correction because it's meant to correct for temperature, humidity, altitude, etc. But if the ambient temperature sensor is placed in the motor intake (as many dyno operators will do), then this causes the sensor to read very hot,<--- 100% true I seen this multiple times, or some time it's place near something hot.. and produces VERY HIGH corrected results. I've had this problem myself at one operator. I had to go back and use the national weather service to get the temperature, humidity, and barometric pressure for that time and area and plug them into the SAE 1349 correction formulas and "re-correct" my own results because the operator had placed the sensor in the wrong location.

If you still have your Dynapack dyno files, I could look at them and give you an idea if anything looks wrong. I will see if I have them.



I've heard this before, but I find it impossible to believe. In fact at SEMA I asked this exact question to a professional drag racer, and he said it was utter nonsense. He even laughed and said "where did you hear that...on some forum on the internet?"

So if you are correct, then the following would be true.

I could accelerate as fast as possible in 1st gear. Coast for two seconds before shifting into second gear. Accelerate as fast as I can in 2nd gear. Coast for FOUR seconds before shifting into third gear. Then accelerate as fast as possible in 3rd gear to achieve the same exact trap speed as if I hadn't coasted for six seconds in between gear shifts. Dude come on!! Your killing me!
I am taking into account a average driver that will take a second to make a shift..


I'm sorry, but I do not even remotely believe that is true. And if it isn't true, then obviously driver ability plays a role in final trap speed.<-- it absolutely does play a role, giving he is consistent
Sorry for the thread Jack
PG PM me with your reply so we dont thread jack..

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      11-11-2008, 07:08 PM   #13
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AlpenWhite25 View Post
Does anyone have any reviw on this Company about the level of expertice on BMW over the years...?????
Like many said above they are a well respected BMW tuning company.

One that actual puts its products and technical skills to use on the track.

They race in the Koni challange, SCCA World Challange, and BMW CCA Club racing.

Their racecars (notice they have an E92 M3 racecar in the works):
http://www.turnermotorsport.com/html/tms_racecars.asp
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      11-11-2008, 08:51 PM   #14
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BMW-M-Mexico View Post
Don't honestly know what 200 more revs will get you but who knows with all that reprogramming everywhere.
If the torque stays flat it will get you ((8600/8400)-1)*414 = ~10 hp.
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      11-11-2008, 09:27 PM   #15
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Quote:
Originally Posted by eagletangogreen View Post
humm..

Well they do have a base run and and after with the mods and it is 40hp more thats a fact.. But keep in mind those dyna pack hub dyno read high... Its not a load base dyno so it doesnt put load on the tires, it just spins freely with no resistance.. Dyno Dynamics, Mustang dyno, and dyno jet (roller type)....
"The Dynapack is a true load-brake dyno - just like the best engine dynos. We directly measure the work being performed, while others just estimate it. Since we have real hydraulic load brakes, we allow you to perform tests that simple inertia-dynos are incapable of. You can now have unprecedented control over the vehicle with a degree of resolution and precision that has to be seen to be believed." --Dynapack website

Hmmm....sounds like you may be confusing dynos.
Edit--guess I should have read the whole thread before responding--sorry.
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      11-11-2008, 09:39 PM   #16
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GregW / Oregon View Post
"The Dynapack is a true load-brake dyno - just like the best engine dynos. We directly measure the work being performed, while others just estimate it. Since we have real hydraulic load brakes, we allow you to perform tests that simple inertia-dynos are incapable of. You can now have unprecedented control over the vehicle with a degree of resolution and precision that has to be seen to be believed." --Dynapack website

Hmmm....sounds like you may be confusing dynos.
Edit--guess I should have read the whole thread before responding--sorry.
No Prob! PG and I have discussed this through PM
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      11-11-2008, 10:39 PM   #17
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The further problem with this approach of deleting front cats is that it is "for off road use only". For most of us that have to pass emmisions tests every few years, that's not going to work.
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      11-12-2008, 12:49 AM   #18
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Originally Posted by GregW / Oregon View Post
The further problem with this approach of deleting front cats is that it is "for off road use only". For most of us that have to pass emmisions tests every few years, that's not going to work.
You can get the AA setup, bolt in the cat, bolt it out. Completely modular, not an issue.
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      11-12-2008, 04:54 PM   #19
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GregW / Oregon View Post
The further problem with this approach of deleting front cats is that it is "for off road use only". For most of us that have to pass emmisions tests every few years, that's not going to work.
Removing the cats is called "tampering" by the EPA and as such is a federal offense. I don't know what the punishment is but nowadays I wouldn't be surprised if being convicted of "contempt of the EPA" gets you the death penalty.
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      11-12-2008, 05:09 PM   #20
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Removing the cats is called "tampering" by the EPA and as such is a federal offense. I don't know what the punishment is but nowadays I wouldn't be surprised if being convicted of "contempt of the EPA" gets you the death penalty.
Hahahaha!! Well, no, not a death penalty yet, just 40 years no probation.
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      11-12-2008, 06:17 PM   #21
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I had a few questions so I contacted Turner, I think this might shed some more light:

"I was wondering about the gains you list for the Stage II M3 software. You say the primary cat is deleted by either modifying the factory manifold or by going to a race manifold. What is the cost for each?

If I am not local to you how do I get my factory header modified? Where are the details on the race headers? Are the gains shown from a modified factory exhaust or the race header?

Many people say the primary cat being deleted gives a loss in low end torque, is this true? "

Response:

Quote:
We will have race center sections for sale in about 30 days - or you can have a local shop chop out your pre cats (assuming the car is for off road / race use) OR Supersprint has a sport cat pipe that was just released. Any / all of these options would work.

There is no loss in low end torque over stock with the pre cat removed - I have never tried taking off the primary cats (that would be too loud)

They dyno I have posted is from a car with the cats pre cats deleted from the factory system.
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      11-14-2008, 04:16 PM   #22
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PencilGeek View Post
So if you are correct, then the following would be true.

I could accelerate as fast as possible in 1st gear. Coast for two seconds before shifting into second gear. Accelerate as fast as I can in 2nd gear. Coast for FOUR seconds before shifting into third gear. Then accelerate as fast as possible in 3rd gear to achieve the same exact trap speed as if I hadn't coasted for six seconds in between gear shifts.
Uh. No. Coasting for 6 seconds will result in a lower trap speed due to distance traveled and speed bled off while coasting.
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