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      11-10-2008, 12:06 AM   #23
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i didn't have the patience to actually read through this thread, so if i'm saying anything that's already been said, i apologize in advance...


...anyways, hard top conv. FTL. it requires more moving parts (and more parts in general) than a folding soft top. it also weighs more than the soft top that could be in its place.

now, putting functionality aside (which is appropriate since most 335i's are daily rides, not track monsters), lets concentrate on aesthetics...first we have the smooth flowing lines of the e92:



...and then there are the additional lines created by the seams in the folding hard top of the e93 (which totally disrupts the smooth flowing lines that were originally apparent on the e92):



...its funny how a few additional lines can completely break up the look of an otherwise smooth, flowing design. i love the e92, but the e93 makes me want to and ...when the top is up anyways...now would a soft top look nicer in its place? i don't know, i've never seen one b/c they don't exist, and its hard for me to picture it...but it doesn't change my opinion that the hard top conv. still looks bad. i suppose a soft top could have looked quite bad as well, in which case it seems BMW simply chose the least offensive design, kind of like the presidential election - we voted for who we thought was the lesser of two evils...
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      11-10-2008, 12:35 AM   #24
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 94JZA80 View Post
i didn't have the patience to actually read through this thread, so if i'm saying anything that's already been said, i apologize in advance...


...anyways, hard top conv. FTL. it requires more moving parts (and more parts in general) than a folding soft top. it also weighs more than the soft top that could be in its place.

now, putting functionality aside (which is appropriate since most 335i's are daily rides, not track monsters), lets concentrate on aesthetics...first we have the smooth flowing lines of the e92:



...and then there are the additional lines created by the seams in the folding hard top of the e93 (which totally disrupts the smooth flowing lines that were originally apparent on the e92):



...its funny how a few additional lines can completely break up the look of an otherwise smooth, flowing design. i love the e92, but the e93 makes me want to and ...when the top is up anyways...now would a soft top look nicer in its place? i don't know, i've never seen one b/c they don't exist, and its hard for me to picture it...but it doesn't change my opinion that the hard top conv. still looks bad. i suppose a soft top could have looked quite bad as well, in which case it seems BMW simply chose the least offensive design, kind of like the presidential election - we voted for who we thought was the lesser of two evils...

What a load of old cods waloop, stop playing pocket billairds and take your hands out of the pockets, just because you did not think to buy a vert.

The lines are probably one of the best out of all the verts currently on the market, the lines are not flowing, gives us break fruit cup!
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      11-10-2008, 02:09 AM   #25
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Originally Posted by watrob View Post
What a load of old cods waloop, stop playing pocket billairds and take your hands out of the pockets, just because you did not think to buy a vert.

The lines are probably one of the best out of all the verts currently on the market, the lines are not flowing, gives us break fruit cup!
dude, of course you're not gonna criticize the flow of your own car, which you probably dropped a good 50k on. the flow sucks on the e93. top down, it is arguably the best-flowing designed vert on the market, but top up, it's an atrocity.

lemme help point out why:
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      11-10-2008, 03:10 AM   #26
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Try more like ~$180,000 AUD to start.

...and why are y'all hating on your own 3er?

If I had a choice, I'd prefer a hardtop convertible. But not the one on the E93.
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      11-10-2008, 03:19 AM   #27
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Try more like ~$180,000 AUD to start.

...and why are y'all hating on your own 3er?

If I had a choice, I'd prefer a hardtop convertible. But not the one on the E93.
oh wow, true true. i didn't see that he's located Down Under.

i'm not hating on the 3er, i just wish the e93 was a soft top. i don't care for the visible gaps and abrupt kinks. i wish they went with a setup similar to the E63 6er.
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      11-10-2008, 08:45 AM   #28
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bimmer Loyalist View Post
dude, of course you're not gonna criticize the flow of your own car, which you probably dropped a good 50k on. the flow sucks on the e93. top down, it is arguably the best-flowing designed vert on the market, but top up, it's an atrocity.

lemme help point out why:

you need to see it in person and not just pics, its looks different from different angles, some angles are horrible.
however, I agree the chopped sections dont look as good ass the coupes rooflines. I mean of course they dont. however, its a convertible.
the trunk section you cricled does not look back, I actually prefuer the slope of the rear window on the 93 then the 92. the trunk on 93 is longer and the lines on the sides dont look as good as the 92.

so all that said, there are gives and takes (to me) on both cars. however, only one car drops the top, and if someone wants that option there is no better one out there...period.

now the M3 looks better then the 335 but both are best of both worlds for someone wanting very high performance in a convertible.
people(like me) dont buy a convertible to track it every weekend and race everyone around, we buy it cause we want that option and we want a nice high performance car.

so there is no need to critisize the convertibles. and if it were a soft top, I would not have bought one. the .001 of a second faster haveing a soft top is irrelavent on these cars.
now why do you guys buy coupes? there are much faster cars in the price bracket. lighter and faster same aprrox price. so why buy a e92????
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      11-10-2008, 09:05 AM   #29
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Soft tops are better on cars that were designed to be convertibles solely by far. Other cars, such as the 3 depend on the implementation.
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      11-10-2008, 09:20 AM   #30
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Quote:
Originally Posted by watrob View Post
What a load of old cods waloop, stop playing pocket billairds and take your hands out of the pockets, just because you did not think to buy a vert.

The lines are probably one of the best out of all the verts currently on the market, the lines are not flowing, gives us break fruit cup!
actually my top DOES come off...it may not be automatic and happen in 20 seconds like yours, but at least it doesn't add an additional 200-lbs. to the highest possible location on my car . at any rate, take a look at my sig, and you can rest assured that i didn't make any mistake in not choosing a 335i, coupe, convertible, or otherwise .

...you also seem to have trouble separating fact from opinion. that the e93 is not very good looking with the top up is just my opinion, and i have no problem acknowledging that. but the fact that the lines don't flow with the top up is just that - a fact. the object of my post was not to upset or offend any e93 owners - it was to give an opinion on the issue brought up by the OP. if i unintentionally offended any e93 in the process, such as yourself, too f_cking bad. there were bound to be arguments both for and against the hard top convertible...did you expect everyone here to say its awesome just b/c we're on a BMW board?




Quote:
Originally Posted by Bimmer Loyalist View Post
the flow sucks on the e93. top down, it is arguably the best-flowing designed vert on the market, but top up, it's an atrocity.
+1

...this is the bottom line, i don't care what anyone says...
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      11-10-2008, 09:45 AM   #31
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Originally Posted by buschy View Post
you need to see it in person and not just pics, its looks different from different angles, some angles are horrible.
however, I agree the chopped sections dont look as good ass the coupes rooflines. I mean of course they dont. however, its a convertible.
the trunk section you cricled does not look back, I actually prefuer the slope of the rear window on the 93 then the 92. the trunk on 93 is longer and the lines on the sides dont look as good as the 92.

so all that said, there are gives and takes (to me) on both cars. however, only one car drops the top, and if someone wants that option there is no better one out there...period.

now the M3 looks better then the 335 but both are best of both worlds for someone wanting very high performance in a convertible.
people(like me) dont buy a convertible to track it every weekend and race everyone around, we buy it cause we want that option and we want a nice high performance car.

so there is no need to critisize the convertibles. and if it were a soft top, I would not have bought one. the .001 of a second faster haveing a soft top is irrelavent on these cars.
now why do you guys buy coupes? there are much faster cars in the price bracket. lighter and faster same aprrox price. so why buy a e92????
I sorta see what you're saying, so I'll reply from my perspective (**opinion**).

Well, first off I've seen enough e93s to still think that it just doesn't look right. I'm against the breaks, and I'm against the abrupt kink at the base of the rear window. I'm also not a fan of the longer rear decklid (the lengthier trunk as your were referring to). Typically, I think a sloping roofline with a short rear decklid is the ultimate combo (think DB9, F430 or 350z). So obviously then for me, the e92 has the much better profile.

I think criticism should be welcome on this forum, especially on our cars. It's the criticism that BMW listens to in order to make their cars better.

And in regards to the statement about why I chose a coupe, well that's simple: I think it looks sexy as fuhk. Coupes are my sorta thing; they flow well, tend to look sportier, and more often than not, perform better than their sedan or convertible counterparts (not so much the case with the e90/e92). A vert has all that extra weight in the worst spot, and I'm not a top down kinda guy, so the whole vert thing is null and void to me.

Also, it's not just the lighter weight of a soft top I find attractive, it's the look. It just seems more like a genuine drop top. I personally don't buy into the whole "hardtop is the new trend" thing. I just feel like it's one big compromise in order to make the car "safer". Looks are subjective, so that topic is left out. I personally think the e63 6 series perfected the soft top look, what with the buttresses and all. But hey, that's just me.
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      11-10-2008, 10:03 AM   #32
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but the hard top gives you much more, if you live where you never have to put it up, then soft top FTW. otherwise hard top FTW.
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      11-10-2008, 10:08 AM   #33
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I don't mind the "breaks" any more than I object to the lines of the door opening. They don't affect the overall form of the body. As for the "kink" of the roof line to rear deck, it's no worse than the "kink" of the roofline to rear deck on my 740iL, nor is it any worse than a large number of classic coupes, not all of which would be considered "fastbacks" like the 3er coupe. At least it's not a reverse notch like the Citroen Ami6... I'd say it's no worse than a 2002, an E24 6 series (which are considered beautiful coupes), or even the very notchy E30 or semi-fastback E36.

Is this an ugly coupe? it's got a notch in the roof that doesn't flow, according to some here...



As for hardtop vs soft top, the hardtop is definitely more practical in concept, for weatherproofing and for security, though in reality, the added complexity will probably be troublesome as the cars get older. For that reason, I'd prefer a soft top on a convertible, like all my convertibles have had over the years.
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      11-10-2008, 10:11 AM   #34
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Quote:
Originally Posted by buschy View Post
but the hard top gives you much more, if you live where you never have to put it up, then soft top FTW. otherwise hard top FTW.
haha, fair points. i never found anything wrong with my dad's 645Ci, but yeah, i can see what you're saying.
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      11-10-2008, 10:15 AM   #35
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bimmer Loyalist View Post
dude, of course you're not gonna criticize the flow of your own car, which you probably dropped a good 50k on. the flow sucks on the e93. top down, it is arguably the best-flowing designed vert on the market, but top up, it's an atrocity.

lemme help point out why:
+1 the three black seams across the top kill the car. I was thinking about vert when I ordered M3, telling myself to just keep the top down 24/7
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      11-10-2008, 10:15 AM   #36
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I don't mind the "breaks" any more than I object to the lines of the door opening. They don't affect the overall form of the body. As for the "kink" of the roof line to rear deck, it's no worse than the "kink" of the roofline to rear deck on my 740iL, nor is it any worse than a large number of classic coupes, not all of which would be considered "fastbacks" like the 3er coupe. At least it's not a reverse notch like the Citroen Ami6... I'd say it's no worse than a 2002, an E24 6 series (which are considered beautiful coupes), or even the very notchy E30 or semi-fastback E36.

Is this an ugly coupe? it's got a notch in the roof that doesn't flow, according to some here...

Not comparable in my opinion. Flow and cohesion have to work together to look good.

Old BMW styling was blocky as a whole. I personally think the e30 M3 is the all time best looking BMW (with the 507 being a close second), and it's by far the notchiest, squarish design they've made (or so I think). That's because it all goes together.

On the e93, you have swooping curves throughout the bumpers, hood, character lines and swage lines. However, that flow is interrupted by a nasty kink in the rear. It completely ruins the effect imo. And I defintely wouldn't compare the gaps in the roof with the door gaps. The door gaps were actually designed to flow with the A-pillar, and the rear end of the door is designed to look like an elegant swoop. They're not technical, nor do they intersect in a way that interrupts the design.

Just my $.02.
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      11-10-2008, 10:17 AM   #37
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Originally Posted by M3MIKE View Post
+1 the three black seams across the top kill the car. I was thinking about vert when I ordered M3, telling myself to just keep the top down 24/7
if the seams are what's bothering you, have you considered ordering an e93 in a darker color? sparkling graphite (now no longer an option), sapphire black, and jet black all do a good job of masking them.
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      11-10-2008, 10:38 AM   #38
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bimmer Loyalist View Post
if the seams are what's bothering you, have you considered ordering an e93 in a darker color? sparkling graphite (now no longer an option), sapphire black, and jet black all do a good job of masking them.

No I got the e92. The roof killed it for me. I love e93 with the top down
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      11-10-2008, 10:46 AM   #39
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bimmer Loyalist View Post
On the e93, you have swooping curves throughout the bumpers, hood, character lines and swage lines. However, that flow is interrupted by a nasty kink in the rear. It completely ruins the effect imo. And I defintely wouldn't compare the gaps in the roof with the door gaps. The door gaps were actually designed to flow with the A-pillar, and the rear end of the door is designed to look like an elegant swoop.
And on your circled example, the rear folding line flows with the rear window, and the line at the base of the top flows with the bottom of the side windows, same as the door cutline "flows" with the A pillar (and yet the door cutline completely cuts across the horizontal bodyline, thus not "flowing" any more than the roof cuts do).

And the notch still flows, to my designer eyes, as well as the notch on the 6 series or my 7 series, or the roof on a E36 coupe. And if those are too blocky, then it flows no worse then the roofline on a say, '69 Camaro:



Swoopy and curvy.
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      11-10-2008, 11:00 AM   #40
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And on your circled example, the rear folding line flows with the rear window, and the line at the base of the top flows with the bottom of the side windows, same as the door cutline "flows" with the A pillar (and yet the door cutline completely cuts across the horizontal bodyline, thus not "flowing" any more than the roof cuts do).

And the notch still flows, to my designer eyes, as well as the notch on the 6 series or my 7 series, or the roof on a E36 coupe. And if those are too blocky, then it flows no worse then the roofline on a say, '69 Camaro:



Swoopy and curvy.
Well we could go on and debate this, but ultimately it's a matter of subjective tastes, and I can tell we're not going to agree. But it's all good. I actually like debating design.

I think the cant-rails should be uninterrupted by break lines, which is why I think it throws the flow off. Now about the rear, I don't know if that's comparable to the 6 series. Are you referring to the e63 or the older e24 model like the one you showed? I think the soft top 6er flows perfectly. The C-pillars go straight into the rear where it dips. I can't seem to find a decent picture online to show this, but I hope you see what I'm saying (maybe you can find one).

Again, you referenced the Camaro, but I don't think that's a fair comparison. The overall design is completely different, and muscle cars have always had a nice blend of straight edges and curves.

I dunno. It's hard for me to say what I want to say without having a picture or something. It's much easier for me to talk and animate my arms while pointing things out...damn internet and its limitations...hahaha.
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      11-10-2008, 12:06 PM   #41
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I dont see any flow problems

like one poster said, if its the lines across the top where it folds are the problem, Get a dark color, you wont see them.
also if that is a problem how can you like a completely colred roof(soft top).

no debating, just wondering.
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      11-10-2008, 12:59 PM   #42
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I think they did a good job with the hard top on the 3, well, as good as you could on any convertible.

I have had convertibles since I started driving and always found that the cloth tops were a lot more trouble to take care of than a hard top. Once, I had to spend hours vacuuming my cloth roof when someone used a very linty towel to dry the roof at a body shop. Bird poo is hard to remove too. The vinyl ones weren't much better.

I think BMW did the right thing by putting the folding hard top on the 3. Ther were a lot of comments about the added complexity, but have you ever watched the process for an E46 soft top going up or down? It's pretty complex too.
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      11-10-2008, 01:45 PM   #43
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      11-10-2008, 02:33 PM   #44
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I love how convertables look with cloth tops. Sure it takes extra maintinance but i take care of my cars already, so a little extra attention to the Z is much appreciated.

I do not purposly drive my z in the rain but occationaly i do get caught in it. i have a garage and its always parked in there. I almost feel like crying with i DO get caught in the rain... or moisture accumulates on it in the morning when left outside.
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