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      11-30-2008, 04:39 AM   #67
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Originally Posted by Powerslide View Post
Fantastic - you upheld your end of the bargain by citing specific sources. However, I'm still skeptical of Audi competing head to head with comparable BMW models because even as your own examples show, the only test where the S5 dominated the 335i was on the wet course (AWD vs. RWD - no surprises there). I don't understand how one can explain why a car with such a noticeable horsepower advantage cannot translate a noticeable track time advantage - the S5 has considerably more horsepower and torque, yet even when tested by sources that you yourself consider more reliable than C&D, there is, at best, a very slight advantage going to car that should be dominating (i.e., S5). It is a good thing for Audi's sake the 335i doesn't make 350 hp or more torque (no offense Footie - I know you're very knowledgeable about cars, and you can call me a fanboy, but even your own data fails to convince me that Audi can stand toe-to-toe with comparable BMW models.
I was never my point to show the S5 to be massively quicker than the 335i, I knew it wouldn't be much quicker, only as I and you have highlighted the only place where Quattro makes it's mark is in the wet but as a design it has shown itself to be capable in the dry as well and that is why Audi stick with what Sticky believes is a nose heavy design.

Yes the S5 has in theory more power than the 335i but when you look at it's true output you know as well as I do that 306hp is not the real figure, it's more like 330hp which I might add gives it similar power to weight figures as the S5. Even look at the data throughout the tests conducted around the world, the two are all but matched in acceleration so does a 'paper' figure of power advantage really mean anything.

The advantage that a rwd design has over awd is weight and a more efficient drive train, after that the advantage of either disappear into the ability of each company to make their respective designs handle and in this these results show that both are all but identical in their abilities. What I showed was a small (usually less than one second) advantage which in real terms means nothing and most definitely no a four second advantage that Sticky and C&D believe to be true.

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Originally Posted by Powerslide View Post
Even your example with the RS6 v. M5 - the RS6 needs a massive hp advantage over the M5 to compete. I'm not saying that Audi's are not great cars, nor am I saying that their engineering is anything less than impressive. In my opinion, however, as solidified by the the data that you yourself cited, I just don't think Audi (overall) is quite as good in overall track handling as BMW...
Again look at the data of acceleration between the two. Yes the RS6 has a small advantage which have been seen in the Gustav event held a short while ago. But though the RS6 has a slight advantage in acceleration it is also carrying a weight penalty which should be giving it a disadvantage everywhere else on the track but it isn't? The only answer I has is Quattro which is reigning in it's excesses.

There is a difference between feel and ability, BMWs because of their perfect weight balance make them feel much better on the track in comparison to Audi, I have said as much and is the real reason why I feel the M3 is a much more enjoyable car to drive but the ability and enjoyment are two different things and in this I know Audi are as good, especially their most recent designs. In fact I am looking forward to driving the new S4 with it's Sport Diff, this should add the fun factor into a otherwise brilliant design.
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      11-30-2008, 04:42 AM   #68
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Garissimo View Post
Nope. The Fifth Gear test, done on your side of the pond, also shows the 335i faster. Not by much, but extrapolated over a longer & more demanding course (like VIR), C&D's results are believable.

Fifth gear test

I don't see any compelling proof to support the "C&D conspiracy against Audi" theory or the theory that Audi's suspension setup is softened up for U.S. spec. cars.
Apparently you have not taken a spin in a TT-S like Footie. If you had, you would have four rings tattooed on your rear end by now. It is that amazing.
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      11-30-2008, 01:38 PM   #69
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Originally Posted by Sticky View Post
Apparently you have not taken a spin in a TT-S like Footie. If you had, you would have four rings tattooed on your rear end by now. It is that amazing.
Checked my ass and there appears to be no four rings tattooed there.

Is it not fair to bases the abilities of the TT-S and make an educated guess on how the TT-RS would be like based on the figures suggested. The same is true for the M3 when compared to the 335i and so on. Not once have I said that the TT-S is the most rewarding to drive, a fwd baised awd system doesn't have the playful tail of a proper rwd car but then again lack of involvement doesn't stop ability which is what I am basing my opinions on.

Maybe the fact that I have had numerous brands throughout the years has made me appreicate more brands than just BMW. I don't look at a brand and think everything from them will be great, I look at each individual model and what merits they happen to have. The M3 in the 3 series range is the jewel in the crown, in the 5 series it's the 535d, the X6 is the 35d, the 1 series is the 123d, the same method is true for Audis, Mercedes, Jag, etc, etc, etc. I never ever buy out of blind faith and I doubt too many here would do things any different.
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      12-18-2008, 07:05 PM   #70
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Check out this result for the E93 convertible:

http://www.fastestlaps.com/track77.html

Notice the cars it beat out - includes Audi S5 and TT-S, Mercedes E63 - pretty darnn impressive considering 450 extra lbs over the E92 coupe!
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      12-18-2008, 07:26 PM   #71
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M3 FTW
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      12-19-2008, 10:59 AM   #72
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Hi,

I already ordered a 2009 M3, so you can't say I am biased towards the TT-S, TT-RS but I have to say I still have second thoughts about the TT-S i drove the same day as the M3. The TT-S felt so much of a sport car, in terms of being small, agile, fast etc. The M3 felt much more tamed and soft over all. Unfortunately i need real back seats and the TT-S back seats are tiny.
But again i am still hesitating over these two cars. Plus the milage is SO MUCH BETTER on the TT-S. I have to plant a couple of trees to balance the M3 CO2 emission.
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      12-19-2008, 12:01 PM   #73
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^+1

And the TT-RS will be much, much better than the S version. Pure brand loyality is the only reason to deny that the RS won't be a decent rival if space in the back isn't required.
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      12-19-2008, 04:11 PM   #74
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Just to make sure my intentions are not misunderstood - I'm sure the TT-S, and especially the TT-RS, would be incredibly fun to drive...as well as the S5, RS5, E63, etc. (I'm not trying to say that just b/c the E93 had a better track time on the link I posted, that the other cars on there would not be fun or worthy of consideration for any potential purchaser).

My purpose for that post was to show any naysayers for the convertible that it is in fact worthy of the M badge if it can get better track times that such worthy competitors (that don't have the weight/rigidity penalties of a convertible) from Audi and Mercedes...
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      12-19-2008, 07:13 PM   #75
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M3 is one and only..love that car!
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      01-07-2009, 03:23 PM   #76
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I realized this thread is mostly dead, but is there anyone here who drove the TT-S and the M3 back to back recently?
I put $1K nonrefundable deposite down on an M3 but still cannot forget the TT-S.
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      01-07-2009, 04:04 PM   #77
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I have. Short testdrive of both

++
The TTS was more fun. It felt quicker on twisty B roads and there was more feedback through the chassis. The turbos hit you in the face at WOT but there was some lag. Low seeting position. small and agile feel. Fun without the need to have the back out.

--
Turbo lag (but relatively minor)
NUMB steering....for me this ruled it out.
Potential to get bored of the turbo BOOST because there wasnt that much left at the top end. But by that time you are way above speed limits anyway.

The M3 had better steering but was much less exhilerating at normal speeds. Felt heavy and lacking the turbo boost at road speeds and during my testdrive I only really got to flex the motor to 8000 rpm maybe twice due to speed limits (which i went over but still 90mph+ before it screams) Huge fun at the top rpms but im starting to think this is a flawed concept for a road car. Think of the roads you drive....Is there potential there to rev the motor to 8k, change gear then unwind the motor again before you run out of road?
Really the M3 is a bit like a caged animal. Im sure it would absolutly FLY and be super fun at the track...but its legs are too long for most day to day driving to explore its potential. A bit like a track runner playing musical chairs, he's prob still gonna win but its frustrating given his potential.

If you dont need the extra seats...testdrive a facelift Cayman S, or wait for the TTRS (which by insider accounts is gonna move the game up) or wait for the RS5 to compare.

Then again life is short. Note also people tend to like the M3 more with extended testdrives and long term tests.
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      01-07-2009, 05:26 PM   #78
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I cannot agree with you more!

Unfortunately, I need some back seats, so right now I am still "buying" the M3, but I am hesitating so much now that makes me angree with myself.
I testdrove the M3 three times (manual x2, DCT x1) and the TT-S x2.
Gasmilage is an issue for me, not so much financially but I hate the "extra" pollution plus I am not a big OPEC supporter either.
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      01-07-2009, 09:46 PM   #79
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Quote:
Originally Posted by attila View Post
I cannot agree with you more!

Unfortunately, I need some back seats, so right now I am still "buying" the M3, but I am hesitating so much now that makes me angree with myself.
I testdrove the M3 three times (manual x2, DCT x1) and the TT-S x2.
Gasmilage is an issue for me, not so much financially but I hate the "extra" pollution plus I am not a big OPEC supporter either.
What did you think of the M3 manual gear box? Just curious as I've always been a fan of Audi's gearboxes. They just seem more precise and smoother.
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      01-07-2009, 10:24 PM   #80
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Quote:
Originally Posted by attila View Post
I cannot agree with you more!

Unfortunately, I need some back seats, so right now I am still "buying" the M3, but I am hesitating so much now that makes me angree with myself.
I testdrove the M3 three times (manual x2, DCT x1) and the TT-S x2.
Gasmilage is an issue for me, not so much financially but I hate the "extra" pollution plus I am not a big OPEC supporter either.
Are you kidding, by a Prius and dont be an Al Gore.
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      01-07-2009, 11:12 PM   #81
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Quote:
Originally Posted by V8convert View Post
I have. Short testdrive of both

++
The TTS was more fun. It felt quicker on twisty B roads and there was more feedback through the chassis. The turbos hit you in the face at WOT but there was some lag. Low seeting position. small and agile feel. Fun without the need to have the back out.

--
Turbo lag (but relatively minor)
NUMB steering....for me this ruled it out.
Potential to get bored of the turbo BOOST because there wasnt that much left at the top end. But by that time you are way above speed limits anyway.

The M3 had better steering but was much less exhilerating at normal speeds. Felt heavy and lacking the turbo boost at road speeds and during my testdrive I only really got to flex the motor to 8000 rpm maybe twice due to speed limits (which i went over but still 90mph+ before it screams) Huge fun at the top rpms but im starting to think this is a flawed concept for a road car. Think of the roads you drive....Is there potential there to rev the motor to 8k, change gear then unwind the motor again before you run out of road?
Really the M3 is a bit like a caged animal. Im sure it would absolutly FLY and be super fun at the track...but its legs are too long for most day to day driving to explore its potential. A bit like a track runner playing musical chairs, he's prob still gonna win but its frustrating given his potential.

If you dont need the extra seats...testdrive a facelift Cayman S, or wait for the TTRS (which by insider accounts is gonna move the game up) or wait for the RS5 to compare.

Then again life is short. Note also people tend to like the M3 more with extended testdrives and long term tests.
I totally agree. I have a 6MT and by the time you're in 8K you're way out of the daily driving speed limit. Don't get me wrong it's puts a smile on my face when you're in that rev range, but a lot of the times it does feel very long. You're always on the edge.

Another thing is, I really feel this engine with DCT is a better match. The car just revs so fast that DCT really allows you to take advantage of that. I think the M engineers had this in mind. You definitely need to shift this car a lot.

This is coming from a pretty decent 6MT driver and owner.

I totally know what you mean by "caged" animal.
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      01-08-2009, 09:58 AM   #82
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My experience with the 6sp manual and DCT M3s are limited, however I drove them back to back on the same route.
The DCT car was new (09), just arrived to the dealer, ODO was about 50miles if I recall correctly, the manual was way older (08) already had the 1200miles service.
The manual felt more alive, again I was not allowed to rev them north of 4500rpm. (I did a few times on the 6sp)
The DCT car was smooth, gear changes fast, etc, BUT it had some hesitation from red lights and just did not feel as fast, it felt like the car is dampened, dull somewhat. Again it was a very new car, plus I surely would need more time to get used to the DCT.
I am afraid of the service issues with the DCT. But I would love to try though. Right now I am ordering the manual car.
Comparing the M3 manual gearbox/shifter combo to Audi the Audi is better, crisper more positive engagement, not as rubbery etc. I hope the M3 gearbox will loosen up and loose some of it's rubbery caracter.

Overall, I liked the M3 but was disapointed the same time. I was expecting more, more of a sport car, like Porsche based upon reviews etc. Still better than Lexus IS-F or the MB C63.

"Are you kidding, by a Prius and dont be an Al Gore."

I would rather be Al Gore than G.W. Bush!! And yes, I am buying a Chevy Volt as soon as it's available. (or a Fisker Karma)
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      01-08-2009, 11:29 AM   #83
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Last month Dutch racecardriver Peter Kox(http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peter_Kox) drove a few sporty cars around the Zandvoort track here in the Netherlands. He liked the Audi TTS the best, followed by the M3 E92 DCT, Mini JC Works, C63AMG, Megane R26(not R) a EVO X , Lexus ISF, Impreza and other sporty cars...

Laptimes:
M3 DCT 2:01.7
C63: 2:03.6
TTS: 2:04.4
ISF: 2:05.5
Impreza STi: 2:07.4
Megane F1 R26 268BHP 2:07.8
Lancer EVO X: 2:07.9
Mini JCW: 2:10.1

The overall winner was the M3 but PK really loved the TTS.
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      01-08-2009, 11:32 AM   #84
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Wow, that's interesting I would not have thought that the TT-S is faster than the IS-F on a track!
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      01-08-2009, 11:35 AM   #85
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Quote:
Originally Posted by attila View Post
Wow, that's interesting I would not have thought that the TT-S is faster than the IS-F on a track!
PK and I neither.
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      01-08-2009, 11:39 AM   #86
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Are there any pics of how this car will look. I honestly donīt like the TT from a purely aesthetic point of view.
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      01-08-2009, 11:53 AM   #87
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Here is a rough idea as to how the TT-RS might look.



Noticed the bits of the 3 slots that have been cut out, similar in design to what is seen on the R8.



I imagine is could be a combination of both styles but should look really well, as all sporty Audis do.

In case you haven't seen an videos of it on the Nurburgring, here is one.

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      01-08-2009, 12:05 PM   #88
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Like the front, but just donīt like the rest of it.
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