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      11-26-2008, 12:57 AM   #67
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Originally Posted by Sticky View Post
If you want power / torque down low, why get an M3?
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      11-26-2008, 03:19 AM   #68
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I'm not sure why this question is being posed. Last time I checked, power delivery isn't the only reason one buys a car. As far as a 335i over an M3, I suggest you drive a 335i and then come see if you need to repose that question. After driving a 335i, I can promise you, its a car I'd never own. I'm pretty sure, there isn't a BMW out there that I would own that doesn't carry the M badge. I'm not sure how many of you have driven a 335i, but their just isn't that much difference in torque. The biggest difference, I felt was part throttle acceleration at lower rpm's (1500-2500). The car didn't feel that fast, and didn't feel that sporty. So let's not even go there. If you look in my previous threads, I was just as interested in the C63, IS-F, and CTS-V. Before I make my point about the centrifugal vs turbo/eaton I'll give you some of the reasons why I went with the M3. Mind you every other car I looked at had more torque than the ///M.

1. CTS-V still isn't here
2. IS-F: No nearby Lexus dealerships, terrible aftermarket, and rear bucket seats, no mechanical LSD
3. C63: No C63's in the area, many 08's lack the Performance Package, difficulty to negotiate a lower sales price, and my lack of confidence in benz reliability. No LSD without the PP
4. M3 was the best bang for my dollar. Lowest price OTD, lowest maintenance costs, 2 dealerships close by, etc... It can hang with all of them (except the caddy) in a straight line, while waxing all of them on the track (except the caddy). It has an extensive aftermarket, albeit expensive. LSD is standard. Last but not least, I felt that the BMW community would be much more helpful with any questions/DIY's and general automotive/motorsport knowledge than any other community of the cars I mentioned.
These are just a few reasons why I chose the ///M3

Now as far as the centrifugal vs turbo/roots type......after driving in cars with similar peak numbers, I prefered the centrifugal the least. How that equates to, I shouldn't have bought an M3 baffles me. The M might be peaky on paper, but it just doesn't feel that peaky to me. There is no sudden surge in the power band, or act like a slug under 6k rpm's like my S2000 did. If the numbers up top are the same, is there something wrong with choosing the stronger setup down low? Lag shouldn't be an issue with a small turbo running mild boost. IMO, centrifugals have good peak numbers, which is best for bragging rights and bench racing.

In the end, its all personal preference, I'm not saying one is better than the other......I just don't like my experience with centrifugals, and if I have other options, I would probably exercise them.
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      11-26-2008, 03:33 AM   #69
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Originally Posted by Irb Digital View Post
I'm not sure why this question is being posed. Last time I checked, power delivery isn't the only reason one buys a car. As far as a 335i over an M3, I suggest you drive a 335i and then come see if you need to repose that question. After driving a 335i, I can promise you, its a car I'd never own. I'm pretty sure, there isn't a BMW out there that I would own that doesn't carry the M badge. I'm not sure how many of you have driven a 335i, but their just isn't that much difference in torque. The biggest difference, I felt was part throttle acceleration at lower rpm's (1500-2500). The car didn't feel that fast, and didn't feel that sporty. So let's not even go there. If you look in my previous threads, I was just as interested in the C63, IS-F, and CTS-V. Before I make my point about the centrifugal vs turbo/eaton I'll give you some of the reasons why I went with the M3. Mind you every other car I looked at had more torque than the ///M.

1. CTS-V still isn't here
2. IS-F: No nearby Lexus dealerships, terrible aftermarket, and rear bucket seats, no mechanical LSD
3. C63: No C63's in the area, many 08's lack the Performance Package, difficulty to negotiate a lower sales price, and my lack of confidence in benz reliability. No LSD without the PP
4. M3 was the best bang for my dollar. Lowest price OTD, lowest maintenance costs, 2 dealerships close by, etc... It can hang with all of them (except the caddy) in a straight line, while waxing all of them on the track (except the caddy). It has an extensive aftermarket, albeit expensive. LSD is standard. Last but not least, I felt that the BMW community would be much more helpful with any questions/DIY's and general automotive/motorsport knowledge than any other community of the cars I mentioned.
These are just a few reasons why I chose the ///M3

Now as far as the centrifugal vs turbo/roots type......after driving in cars with similar peak numbers, I prefered the centrifugal the least. How that equates to, I shouldn't have bought an M3 baffles me. The M might be peaky on paper, but it just doesn't feel that peaky to me. There is no sudden surge in the power band, or act like a slug under 6k rpm's like my S2000 did. If the numbers up top are the same, is there something wrong with choosing the stronger setup down low? Lag shouldn't be an issue with a small turbo running mild boost. IMO, centrifugals have good peak numbers, which is best for bragging rights and bench racing.

In the end, its all personal preference, I'm not saying one is better than the other......I just don't like my experience with centrifugals, and if I have other options, I would probably exercise them.
IMO your post is all over the place and I don't get what you are trying to say.

Pretty much every supercharger available for the E46 M3 is a centrifugal. What are you talking about regarding bench racing or bragging rights? The power on an M3 is all up top, it is the same with the centrifugal blower. If anything, it makes the most sense for an M3. Not to mention with the boost building with the revs traction is not an issue down low like with a roots.

Have you ever seen what centrifugal blowers on M3's do? Mid 11's with trap speeds in the 120's is not power on paper. Take a look at videos of M3's with superchargers some time to get an idea of the real world performance.
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      11-26-2008, 04:13 AM   #70
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sticky View Post
IMO your post is all over the place and I don't get what you are trying to say.

Pretty much every supercharger available for the E46 M3 is a centrifugal. What are you talking about regarding bench racing or bragging rights? The power on an M3 is all up top, it is the same with the centrifugal blower. If anything, it makes the most sense for an M3. Not to mention with the boost building with the revs traction is not an issue down low like with a roots.

Have you ever seen what centrifugal blowers on M3's do? Mid 11's with trap speeds in the 120's is not power on paper. Take a look at videos of M3's with superchargers some time to get an idea of the real world performance.
Recap of my post:

1. Centrifugal is my last choice for an aftermarket forced induction kit, due to its power delivery. Which is irrelevent to why I bought an M3.

2. 335i vs M3, drive both and then get back to me on this. <--Not necessarily for you, just those that were asking.

3. The M3 does not feel peaky to me. Keep in mind the power delivery is not peaky it is just very efficient and makes power til redline

4. My personal experience with centrifugal superchargers was underwhelming, when compared to other forms of FI, hence my own preference, derived from real world performance, or what I like to call personal experience.

5. I don't doubt that centrifugals are fast, or make power. So looking at a vid of a E46 running 11's or even 9's for that matter isn't going to change my preference.

5. It's all personal preference, I'm not trying to tell you one is better than the other, I would just choose something else first, if it put down similar peak numbers for a similar price.

6. It might make the most sense to you to accentuate the already top heavy powerband, but some people prefer to address the weaker points.
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      11-26-2008, 04:55 AM   #71
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Irb Digital View Post
Recap of my post:

1. Centrifugal is my last choice for an aftermarket forced induction kit, due to its power delivery. Which is irrelevent to why I bought an M3.

2. 335i vs M3, drive both and then get back to me on this. <--Not necessarily for you, just those that were asking.

3. The M3 does not feel peaky to me. Keep in mind the power delivery is not peaky it is just very efficient and makes power til redline

4. My personal experience with centrifugal superchargers was underwhelming, when compared to other forms of FI, hence my own preference, derived from real world performance, or what I like to call personal experience.

5. I don't doubt that centrifugals are fast, or make power. So looking at a vid of a E46 running 11's or even 9's for that matter isn't going to change my preference.

5. It's all personal preference, I'm not trying to tell you one is better than the other, I would just choose something else first, if it put down similar peak numbers for a similar price.

6. It might make the most sense to you to accentuate the already top heavy powerband, but some people prefer to address the weaker points.
1. Uh-huh

2. Uh-huh

3. Uh-huh

4. Uh-huh

5. Uh-huh (thought I read something about bench racing)

5 again?

6 (7). What is the weaker point? You don't need forced induction to address the low end if that is what you want. Get a shorter final drive, ta-da, problem solved.

You don't want a centrifugal, ok, well that is all you are going to get if you want forced induction on the M3. Eventually someone may do a turbo kit, but by that time we will all be on the next generation M3.
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      11-26-2008, 10:10 AM   #72
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sticky View Post
1. Uh-huh

2. Uh-huh

3. Uh-huh

4. Uh-huh

5. Uh-huh (thought I read something about bench racing)

5 again?

6 (7). What is the weaker point? You don't need forced induction to address the low end if that is what you want. Get a shorter final drive, ta-da, problem solved.

You don't want a centrifugal, ok, well that is all you are going to get if you want forced induction on the M3. Eventually someone may do a turbo kit, but by that time we will all be on the next generation M3.
We can go round and round forever but I think our points have been made. You are certainly correct in saying a turbo is a ways off if ever so this is more or less gee whiz, what if, etc... Most likely, my only choices will be centrifugal. As far as the "weaker points" comment, a better choice of words would have been, I'd rather strengthen the entire powerband instead of the top 20%. Ok, bench racing might have been a low blow. Things like "80 roll champ", "dyno queen", "highway killer", etc..., come to mind, but name calling is immature, so I won't do that.

That last part was a joke but in all seriousness, if both setups are running the same max boost pressure with similar peak numbers, a properly sized turbo will hit peak boost pressure a lot sooner in the powerband, giving much better numbers under the curve.
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      11-26-2008, 10:37 AM   #73
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sticky View Post
They cracked 400 wheel with the first kits for the E46 M3.

I would expect 530 wheel on the E92 @ 5.5 psi, if not more. 5.5 psi is fine even on piss 91 octane.
IIRC, the very first kit that AA produced, which was the "first s/c kit for the E46 M3" was less than 400whp. AA's kit was right on par with Dinan's S3-M3. I believe the next gen was the one that broke the 400whp mark.

I'd have to go searching through my stacks of magazines to find out for sure though.

Either way, I'm a dork for remember this useless info.

Now that I think about it, maybe these E9X kits will cost more. I don't think as many people will feel a need to upgrade from only 414hp. Therefore, companies will have to charge more money per kit to recoup R&D costs.

On the other hand, I'm getting the feeling that there are a lot more E9X M3s on the road than E46 M3s at the same point in their lifecycles.

But who knows for sure until someone releases pricing. Again, can't wait to see when VF finished their kit!
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      11-26-2008, 02:49 PM   #74
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no detonation is premature fuel burn inside the cylinder. basically, unburned fuel and air inside the cylinder can ignite under pressure and heat outside of the normal burn that occurs with each stroke. it can cause damage because of the added pressure detonation puts on the rods and crank. when he's talking about detonation of street gas he's talking about gases with lower octane ratings. the higher the octane rating, the more efficiently and evenly it burns, the less likely chance of detonation.
haha I was just kidding btw but thanx for the clearification
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      11-26-2008, 09:12 PM   #75
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Irb Digital View Post
We can go round and round forever but I think our points have been made. You are certainly correct in saying a turbo is a ways off if ever so this is more or less gee whiz, what if, etc... Most likely, my only choices will be centrifugal. As far as the "weaker points" comment, a better choice of words would have been, I'd rather strengthen the entire powerband instead of the top 20%. Ok, bench racing might have been a low blow. Things like "80 roll champ", "dyno queen", "highway killer", etc..., come to mind, but name calling is immature, so I won't do that.

That last part was a joke but in all seriousness, if both setups are running the same max boost pressure with similar peak numbers, a properly sized turbo will hit peak boost pressure a lot sooner in the powerband, giving much better numbers under the curve.
I respect your point of view.

I love turbos, just on porsche's
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      11-26-2008, 09:19 PM   #76
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Originally Posted by bigjae1976 View Post
IIRC, the very first kit that AA produced, which was the "first s/c kit for the E46 M3" was less than 400whp. AA's kit was right on par with Dinan's S3-M3. I believe the next gen was the one that broke the 400whp mark.

I'd have to go searching through my stacks of magazines to find out for sure though.

Either way, I'm a dork for remember this useless info.

Now that I think about it, maybe these E9X kits will cost more. I don't think as many people will feel a need to upgrade from only 414hp. Therefore, companies will have to charge more money per kit to recoup R&D costs.

On the other hand, I'm getting the feeling that there are a lot more E9X M3s on the road than E46 M3s at the same point in their lifecycles.

But who knows for sure until someone releases pricing. Again, can't wait to see when VF finished their kit!
I was referring to VF-engineering regarding the first kits comment as the supercharger pictured in this thread is theirs.
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      11-27-2008, 08:29 PM   #77
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Irb Digital View Post
My goal, dream is a better word is to be in the 450-500whp range. So I'll be keeping an eye on this kit as well as what Active's plans are.
Hmmm...talk about 335 Territory....Just a bit sad that you guys have to spend another 15K on top to get there.... Flame suit on.....My Gobble gobble day didn't go well, I HAVE TO BUST SOMEONES B@LL$.
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      11-27-2008, 09:37 PM   #78
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Hmmm...talk about 335 Territory....Just a bit sad that you guys have to spend another 15K on top to get there.... Flame suit on.....My Gobble gobble day didn't go well, I HAVE TO BUST SOMEONES B@LL$.
No 335's are in this range that I know of atm.....explain please.
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      11-27-2008, 11:11 PM   #79
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Hmmm...talk about 335 Territory....Just a bit sad that you guys have to spend another 15K on top to get there.... Flame suit on.....My Gobble gobble day didn't go well, I HAVE TO BUST SOMEONES B@LL$.
What 335 is the 500+ wheel range?

If 15k is an issue in mods for someone the 335 is a nice alternative to fit into their weaker financial situation. The WRX STI is a great choice as well. As an M3 owner, I could care less about bang for the buck or else I would be in a Z06.

335 owners seriously have let their cars go to their heads:


It is sad how overrated the 335 is when modded. Tell me, how much would someone with a 335 have to spend to get 500+ wheel? You don't know, because it has not been done. Sad thing is it will take way more than 15k to get there, and good luck on pump gas.
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      11-28-2008, 12:40 AM   #80
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What 335 is the 500+ wheel range?

If 15k is an issue in mods for someone the 335 is a nice alternative to fit into their weaker financial situation. The WRX STI is a great choice as well. As an M3 owner, I could care less about bang for the buck or else I would be in a Z06.

335 owners seriously have let their cars go to their heads:


It is sad how overrated the 335 is when modded. Tell me, how much would someone with a 335 have to spend to get 500+ wheel? You don't know, because it has not been done. Sad thing is it will take way more than 15k to get there, and good luck on pump gas.
Wow big baller...please contain yourself, its just an m3.
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      11-28-2008, 01:15 AM   #81
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Originally Posted by 335e90 View Post
Wow big baller...please contain yourself, its just an m3.
Do you read some of the so-called kill stories on E90post. They are a joke.

You guys set yourself up for the insults.

I mean look at what the 335i owner stated above. Tuned 335i's are running 500 hp to the wheel. I don't think so.
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      11-28-2008, 02:21 AM   #82
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Wow big baller...please contain yourself, its just an m3.
You are right, for some reason it just sounds better to say its just an M3 rather than its just a 335.
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      11-28-2008, 02:52 AM   #83
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Do you read some of the so-called kill stories on E90post. They are a joke.

You guys set yourself up for the insults.

I mean look at what the 335i owner stated above. Tuned 335i's are running 500 hp to the wheel. I don't think so.
Ya and they need to stfu

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Originally Posted by Sticky View Post
You are right, for some reason it just sounds better to say its just an M3 rather than its just a 335.
No doubt it sounds better. My comment was more directed at you being a pretentious little bitch by assuming people are in certain cars due to someone's financial situation. If you make that assumption, then I guess that means you buy the nicest car that you can possibly afford, which is an M3 in your case, which clearly shows you aren't that well off yourself.
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      11-28-2008, 03:32 AM   #84
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Ya and they need to stfu



No doubt it sounds better. My comment was more directed at you being a pretentious little bitch by assuming people are in certain cars due to someone's financial situation. If you make that assumption, then I guess that means you buy the nicest car that you can possibly afford, which is an M3 in your case, which clearly shows you aren't that well off yourself.
You are one special little guy You are able to come to the conclusion that the M3 is the best car I can afford? I am on M3post for ONE of the cars in my stable, which is an M3. It also is my daily driver. When I want to show just how much better off I am than someone like yourself, I drive the Rolls Royce. If its sunny, I drop the top in the SL. The M3 happens to be the cheapest car in my garage, what is yours?

Most people drive 335's and talk about "bang for the buck" upgrades for them because they can't afford the M3 and they most certainly can't afford to modify it. They make themselves feel better about it by talking about how they can get M3 performance by chipping the 335 (haha ya right!) You know, people like you.

I wish the M3 was more expensive and more upscale than it is but they have to keep it somewhat attainable. It is far too close for comfort to the low end masses with 335's so we have to deal with people like yourself annoying us on M3post.

Last edited by Sticky; 11-28-2008 at 03:57 AM.
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      11-28-2008, 02:52 PM   #85
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You are one special little guy You are able to come to the conclusion that the M3 is the best car I can afford? I am on M3post for ONE of the cars in my stable, which is an M3. It also is my daily driver. When I want to show just how much better off I am than someone like yourself, I drive the Rolls Royce. If its sunny, I drop the top in the SL. The M3 happens to be the cheapest car in my garage, what is yours?

Most people drive 335's and talk about "bang for the buck" upgrades for them because they can't afford the M3 and they most certainly can't afford to modify it. They make themselves feel better about it by talking about how they can get M3 performance by chipping the 335 (haha ya right!) You know, people like you.

I wish the M3 was more expensive and more upscale than it is but they have to keep it somewhat attainable. It is far too close for comfort to the low end masses with 335's so we have to deal with people like yourself annoying us on M3post.
What kind of rolls royce?

Also once again you are showing your belief that the car someone drives directly correlates with their wealth by saying you are better off than me? Man, Warren Buffet drives a Crown Vic so you must be like 10 times richer than him right? I think you are just some idiot who knows nothing about finances and is probably over his head based on everything you have said.

Last edited by Ryan@Motorwerks; 11-28-2008 at 06:40 PM.
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      11-29-2008, 06:39 AM   #86
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What kind of rolls royce?

Also once again you are showing your belief that the car someone drives directly correlates with their wealth by saying you are better off than me? Man, Warren Buffet drives a Crown Vic so you must be like 10 times richer than him right? I think you are just some idiot who knows nothing about finances and is probably over his head based on everything you have said.
Warren Buffet is a better person than either of us, he is wealthier. Where have you been? Don't you know that how good you are as a human being is directly correlated with your net worth?

I see your point, the majority of 335 owners drive that car simply because they choose to. If they really dipped into their millions, excuse me, billions, they would still be in their 335's.

I am way over my head and don't know anything about finances. You are clearly in a position to dictate finances to me. I'm listening intently, tell me, how many 80 year old billionaires are in BMW's of any sort? Since you are so finance savvy, any tips for those of us in the slums of Orange County?

Can't you peasants keep to E90post? This thread is about the VF-engineering supercharger for the M3, not for 335 owners to try to make themselves relevant.
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      11-29-2008, 09:46 PM   #87
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Sticky... As a supercharged M3 owner and a modded 335 owner I don't think you know how you make yourself sound with your replies. If you were to tone down your comments you wouldn't get into these forum debates.
All you have to do Is admit a properly modded 335 can out run a M3 with non FI bolt ons or shall I say "keep up".
There is always a faster car out there.....
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      11-29-2008, 09:51 PM   #88
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ps... a FI e92 by vf should be a beast...... congrats if that is the way you are going.
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