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      11-02-2008, 03:40 PM   #23
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Yikes! After reading about the maintenance costs, service intervals, lack of proper warranty, etc. I am really glad I chose to go with the M3.
For what it costs to actually operate a GTR for a couple of years (or a couple of miles if you launch it) a Ferrari or Aston could be more affordable.

Then there's the Edmunds write up, where they say they were introduced to the ONE technician in Santa Monica trained to work on the car???? How could one technician possibly service all the cars that will be delivered in Santa Monica and the surrounding areas?
And then there is the wait (without a loaner) for the service to be finished, and not properly at that.

Hey Celsius..... with all the crap you've dished out about how superior the GTR is, I have a feeling you will be getting exactly what you deserve.
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      11-02-2008, 04:06 PM   #24
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Celsius View Post
There are a few things that are causing the tranny failures:

1 scenario is that excessive "wheel hop" may be the cause.
another scenario is that the shift solenoid is failing and causing the gears to "crash" during shifts.
and then it could be a combonation of both and/or more.

The first scenario listed above can be EASILY remidied with something like an "Energy Suspension" bushing upgrade, etc.

The solenoid failure can be remedied aswell!

Then there are the more indepth solutions from AnimalHouse Racing with "Stronger Gears".

In any event, the aftermarket will provide a solution to this issue, even though it's not a issue if you don't use LC.

0-60 times have been reported @ ~4 seconds without the use of LC and the last time I checked LC is not needed if you're doing "lap times"!
Are you serious, not a big deal? Spend this kind of money on a car like GT-R and having to put afermarket suspension and transmission gears into the car to make it perform and last?

The other problem with this whole point of view is that your chance of a voided warranty with aftermarket parts goes way up. I know that the law says this is not allowed, but come on aftermarket gears on a high tech transaxle dual clutch system. That would not be a solution for me.
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      11-02-2008, 04:08 PM   #25
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Irb Digital View Post
I think the GTR is a new candidate for a "Motivational" poster.
Check the link in my post #14, there are a good half dozen, HILARIOUS, "motivational" posters hidden in there.
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      11-02-2008, 04:38 PM   #26
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lucid View Post
Hah? How's top possible? Are they joking?

It sounds like you void the warranty on this car if you turn the ignition on...
You got that right!


Taken from the link that Swamp posted.
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      11-02-2008, 04:45 PM   #27
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Krueger///M3 View Post
You got that right!

Taken from the link that Swamp posted.
That is pretty funny, but on a more serious note, is also dangerous for a company that sells performance cars. If people are indeed converging on their perceptions on unrealistic warranty terms, then the word will travel. If I were considering a GTR, based on what I am hearing these warrany conditions--if they are indeed true--I would definitely walk the other way.
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      11-02-2008, 05:37 PM   #28
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Quote:
Originally Posted by swamp2 View Post
Check the link in my post #14, there are a good half dozen, HILARIOUS, "motivational" posters hidden in there.
Heading there now!

Quote:
Originally Posted by lucid View Post
That is pretty funny, but on a more serious note, is also dangerous for a company that sells performance cars. If people are indeed converging on their perceptions on unrealistic warranty terms, then the word will travel. If I were considering a GTR, based on what I am hearing these warrany conditions--if they are indeed true--I would definitely walk the other way.
My sentiments exactly. When you make a foray into the big dog category, you're already starting behind the 8 ball without name recognition in that arena. So every bit of info is critical and Nissan skirting around warranty issues with the fragility of this car, is a certain recipe to steer potential customers into the competition.

In all of the cars I've owned with a choice to disable traction/stability control, I probably average 50% of my driving with the system disabled. In dry weather conditions I see no reason for it, because they are usually too intrusive. So for that reason alone, I would no longer be in the market for this car. This is sad, because I was a big supporter of the GTR. It is a technological marvel, but at $100k, reliability issues, and warranty problems, its no longer the bargain that it was marketed as.
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      11-02-2008, 05:55 PM   #29
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lucid View Post
Hah? How's top possible? Are they joking?

It sounds like you void the warranty on this car if you turn the ignition on...

If I had to read Nissan's minds here......we know the drivetrain is extremely finicky... There is speculation wheel hop kills the tranny, if that is the case, the wheels are an integral part of the drivetrain and preventing people from using aftermarket rules is a way to reduce the likelihood of tranny failure.

Wheelhop was the reason BMW initially didn't support DSC off on the 6MT E60 M5s.


I honestly think Nissan needs to be given some breathing room to sort out the car. I applaud Nissan (and other car companies) bringing out performance cars in the era of unshaven legs and Hybrids.

But Nissan cannot be excused for the warranty crap. They are doing R&D on the customers' dime.....and they are not standing by their product.

If Porsche wants to attack the GTR, they would attack from this angle.....instead of whining.
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      11-02-2008, 06:05 PM   #30
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Quote:
Originally Posted by T Bone View Post
If I had to read Nissan's minds here......we know the drivetrain is extremely finicky... There is speculation wheel hop kills the tranny, if that is the case, the wheels are an integral part of the drivetrain and preventing people from using aftermarket rules is a way to reduce the likelihood of tranny failure.

Wheelhop was the reason BMW initially didn't support DSC off on the 6MT E60 M5s.
I don't think the tranmission issue has much to do with wheelhop. If you recall, Edmunds identified the transmission as the "weak link" in this car right after it was released in Japan. They informally tested a privately owned GTR there. After using LC a few times, they reported that the transmission overheated to the extent that they could feel the heat coming up through the center console. (That was a production car just to be clear.)
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      11-02-2008, 06:11 PM   #31
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lucid View Post
I don't think the tranmission issue has much to do with wheelhop. If you recall, Edmunds identified the transmission as the "weak link" in this car right after it was released in Japan. They informally tested a privately owned GTR there. After using LC a few times, they reported that the transmission overheated to the extent that they could feel the heat coming up through the center console. (That was a production car just to be clear.)

It is a transaxle so wheel hop will jiggle some stuff in the tranny
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      11-02-2008, 07:24 PM   #32
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There is no excuse for how Nissan is handling these transmission issues. If the minority of these trannys fail due to abuse that's one thing but Nissan should really step up and clarify this in the face of public opinion.

In the end, whether fact or fiction, these tranny issues may very well attach themselves to this car. So, no matter what the truth really is, MY2009 GT-Rs will likely be known as the GT-R with a frail transmission, which will hurt resale.

Although the truth likely lies somewhere in the middle, a GT-R consumer needs to ask why does the owner's manual have seven different locations for the dealers to enter replacement transmission information. And, why would the owner have to even consider changing tranny fluid at 18,000 miles let alone 1,800 miles. The fact that it holds 10.3 quarts is all the more reason that intervals should be longer. Obviously Nissan knows there is a problem and the way they are handling it is just fuel to the fire. This reason alone is the reason I wouldn't buy one.
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      11-02-2008, 07:28 PM   #33
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Quote:
Originally Posted by T Bone View Post
It is a transaxle so wheel hop will jiggle some stuff in the tranny
I am sure you can destroy the transmission by not backing off if you are experiencing hop, but Edmunds wasn't. At least, that's not why they identified the GTR transmission as the weak link.
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      11-02-2008, 10:40 PM   #34
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Makes me glad I chose to get the C63 instead of the GT-R
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      11-02-2008, 10:43 PM   #35
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Yeh, nice car to have in the garage and look at and only drive to church on Sundays. You certainetly could'nt mod a Nissan like you can the M3. The dealer would void your warranty as soon as you drove up to the dealership.
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      11-02-2008, 10:49 PM   #36
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lucid View Post
I am sure you can destroy the transmission by not backing off if you are experiencing hop, but Edmunds wasn't. At least, that's not why they identified the GTR transmission as the weak link.

It really is amazing how efficient the internet is in exploting the weaknesses of a car / setting the perception with a small but vocal base.

But as Devo points out I think the bit has been flipped that the tranny is the weaklink on an otherwise good car. Imagine if a car was known for blowing engines? Bad for resale.

There seems to be an undue attention level given to wheels / alignment though....I wonder what Nissan's secret data shows.... I wonder why this is a sore spot.....

BTW, at the heart of this issue is the tranny. Can we honestly say BMW or any other manufacturer has a better track record? Look at the SMG 2, 3 failures and MDCT. Nissan outsourced the tranny to Getrag....It is just a dual clutch tranny.

BUT the big difference seems to be Nissan's software (crashing the gears) and their insane policy of warranty denial.....Nissan should be commended for ripping PR defeat out of the jaws of victory.
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      11-02-2008, 11:05 PM   #37
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Quote:
Originally Posted by T Bone View Post
There seems to be an undue attention level given to wheels / alignment though....I wonder what Nissan's secret data shows.... I wonder why this is a sore spot.....
I wonder if the AWD system uses absolute angular velocity data of each wheel to function properly, and if the wheel/tire sizes differ from stock, that causes problems??? A wild guess at best...

Quote:
Originally Posted by T Bone View Post
BTW, at the heart of this issue is the tranny. Can we honestly say BMW or any other manufacturer has a better track record? Look at the SMG 2, 3 failures and MDCT.
This is a fine point. However, as you mentioned earlier, BMW seems to have done a much better job in standing behind its product, and making things right for the owners in the long run as opposed to isolating them.
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      11-02-2008, 11:30 PM   #38
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lucid View Post
I wonder if the AWD system uses absolute angular velocity data of each wheel to function properly, and if the wheel/tire sizes differ from stock, that causes problems??? A wild guess at best...



This is a fine point. However, as you mentioned earlier, BMW seems to have done a much better job in standing behind its product, and making things right for the owners in the long run as opposed to isolating them.
iirc bmw attributed the engine failures on the early e46 m3 on user error then later fessed up to manufacturing issues. once nissan gets the actual issue sorted out im guessing they will work on a solution. if there really is that high of a failure rate there's no way they can ignore it but the actual rate is something that im curious about considering how most posts cite basically one owner's issue with the transmission.
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      11-03-2008, 12:04 AM   #39
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ismelllikepoop View Post
iirc bmw attributed the engine failures on the early e46 m3 on user error then later fessed up to manufacturing issues. once nissan gets the actual issue sorted out im guessing they will work on a solution. if there really is that high of a failure rate there's no way they can ignore it but the actual rate is something that im curious about considering how most posts cite basically one owner's issue with the transmission.
True, but the bearing issue with the E46 engine was experienced by many folks--meaning you didn't necessarily have to drive the car hard for it to surface. At least that is my understanding (which might be false as I wasn't really into the M3 scene then).

GTR's transmission issue will most likely be experienced by people who will really push their cars hard however (I don't mean abuse it), so it might effect a smaller portion of the owners in the long run. As I mentioned, the transmission issue has been identified earlier by a magazine. I am pretty sure I've read about other cases although I can't remember where, so I can't reference them here.
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      11-03-2008, 12:21 AM   #40
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Quote:
Originally Posted by devo View Post
a GT-R consumer needs to ask why does the owner's manual have seven different locations for the dealers to enter replacement transmission information.
Absolutely unreal. I saw that page of the owners manual but it was in the midst of so many GT-R "motivational posters" I was not sure it was authentic. If it is, I find this utter disturbing and nearly inconceivable. SEVEN?
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      11-03-2008, 12:23 AM   #41
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ismelllikepoop View Post
iirc bmw attributed the engine failures on the early e46 m3 on user error then later fessed up to manufacturing issues. once nissan gets the actual issue sorted out im guessing they will work on a solution. if there really is that high of a failure rate there's no way they can ignore it but the actual rate is something that im curious about considering how most posts cite basically one owner's issue with the transmission.
Quote:
Originally Posted by lucid View Post
True, but the bearing issue with the E46 engine was experienced by many folks--meaning you didn't necessarily have to drive the car hard for it to surface. At least that is my understanding (which might be false as I wasn't really into the M3 scene then).

GTR's transmission issue will most likely be experienced by people who will really push their cars hard however (I don't mean abuse it), so it might effect a smaller portion of the owners in the long run. As I mentioned, the transmission issue has been identified earlier by a magazine. I am pretty sure I've read about other cases although I can't remember where, so I can't reference them here.

BMW handled it much differently. There was a period where they didn't know what was going on. They found out the rod bearings were wearing, had a recall and I even think the warranty was extended.

BMW caught some PR flack but it was a footnote in the grand success of the E46 M3.

The GTR, so few and so young, appears to need an epilogue...
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      11-03-2008, 06:52 AM   #42
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Celsius View Post
The truth is:
There have only been approx ONLY 2 vehicles in the US with documented cases of Tranny failures and this was after numerous launches with only <2000 miles on the clock!
It just so happens that those guys are DEEPly connected to the Internet and Forums so the word spread FAST.

It's kinda like when someone posts an issue on a forum about a car they just bought and having bad results, giving bad reviews. (335 fuel pump, E46 bearrings, C63 "engine check lights", etc). The "haters" of that car will "fuel" the fire!

Luckily, not everyone on the forum believes what they read!
Maybe only two failed after extensive abuse maybe more, but you would have to admit that the transmission fluid intervals and owner's manual alone appear very suspicious. The fact that Nissan has temporarily stopped production doesn't help either.

I would like to know if any, and how many, have failed in other countries.
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      11-03-2008, 07:02 AM   #43
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Quote:
Originally Posted by T Bone View Post
BMW handled it much differently. There was a period where they didn't know what was going on. They found out the rod bearings were wearing, had a recall and I even think the warranty was extended.

BMW caught some PR flack but it was a footnote in the grand success of the E46 M3.

The GTR, so few and so young, appears to need an epilogue...
Regarding the E46 M3 (MY2002) BMW recalled and replaced the rod bearings and oil pump or its gears, I can't remember. They also extended the warranty to 6years or 100,000 miles as to alleviate any customer concerns over longevity and in a (successful) attempt to retain a strong resale. Definately, kudos to BMW on that one for how they handled it.

If Nissan did something similar, it would bolster such consumer confidence. They don't have to give the farm away, but they could certainly handle this better.
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      11-03-2008, 08:00 AM   #44
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Celsius View Post
true, but I'm thinking that Nissan has not started a recall campaign because ~2 confirmed US failures does not warrant one
It is possible to think about some connections here:

1.Edmunds tests a privately owned production car, and the transmission overheats after a few launches (I can't remember how many, but they said it interrupted their testing, so they weren't really into it. Plus, they said they were taking it easy on the car since it was privately owned.)

2.There seems to be strange language around transmission warranty in the manual (I haven't seen it for myself though but I doubt that the people posting that info on this thread are lying).

3.There are "some" examples of transmission failures. If 2 have been reported in the US on the internet, you can pretty much bet that there are more not only in the US but elsewhere as well. Not everybody runs to the internet when something is wrong with their car for various reasons. However, even then, is that statistically significant? We don't know yet.

Regardless of how this plays out, again, if I were a potential buyer, I'd put my decision on hold. There is something going on here, and we'll find out more with time.

Finally, voiding the warranty for using a feature that the product has in stock form is absurd. If the feature cannot be used safely, then it should be disabled or made avaliable on a limited basis. It is an $80k sports car. It is natural that some owners want to enjoy launching it. That does not necessarily constitute abuse.
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