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      10-31-2008, 11:18 AM   #1
Blip Bavarian
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ZR1 vs. GT-R

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      10-31-2008, 11:25 AM   #2
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good job GM
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      10-31-2008, 12:42 PM   #3
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      10-31-2008, 01:48 PM   #4
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For all those who believe all of the GT-Rs track performance is from its UFO like handling here we see it getting trounced on both the slalom and skidpad.
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      10-31-2008, 02:07 PM   #5
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WOW very awesome job Nissan!!!! wow very impressive.... but more WOW's to GM for this masterpiece!!!!

GM's victory here doesnt by any means suggest Nissan didnt do a great job on the GTR!

edit: Nissan got a small block V6, turbo'd it and tuned it and got an awesome car to match the Z06. GM got the Z06, FI'd it and tuned it and got something nice. I'd like to see the ZR1 with ACR tho... i hate when people go "unbeatable" and all that bullshit! fuck you edmunds, race that with McLaren F1 or CCX-R and tell me who's unbeatable lol

didnt the ACR beat the ZR1 on N'Ring?
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      10-31-2008, 02:48 PM   #6
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Quote:
Originally Posted by swamp2 View Post
For all those who believe all of the GT-Rs track performance is from its UFO like handling here we see it getting trounced on both the slalom and skidpad.
Don't read to much into the slalom or skidpad results. First slalom is something that usually doesn't go well for awd cars, plus you have to consider that the GTR got hellish close to the ZR1 yet weighed considerably more, it me that is some achievement.

Second skidpad figures do not prove cornering ability, the actual speed through a corner is the only thing which matters and due to the way awd car shuffle the power means they can produce less Gs but equally as quick cornering speed.

The most interesting thing on the lap with the way the two cars behaved, the GTR was ultra stabled and composed, while the ZR1 was very twitchy which they commented on and this is a smooth track and nothing like the rough and bumpy surface that makes up the ring.

P.S.
I don't want another 100 post back and forth on this, only highlighting what I know. There is no doubt the ZR1 is an amazing machine, like it's lapped the ring within a whisker of the ACR which I regard as a race car with road plates and generates real downforce.
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      10-31-2008, 02:50 PM   #7
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The final scene was pretty funny with the ZR1 doing a burnout circle around the GTR.
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      10-31-2008, 04:24 PM   #8
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Quote:
Originally Posted by footie View Post
Second skidpad figures do not prove cornering ability, the actual speed through a corner is the only thing which matters and due to the way awd car shuffle the power means they can produce less Gs but equally as quick cornering speed.
This is incorrect, period. Like I posted in the other thread cornering g and speed are one and the same. For any object, planet or car, traveling in an arc that is closely/locally a section of a circle (and any line/curve can be nearly perfectly approximated in this way):

g force = speed^2/(radius x gravity constant)

Cornering g force and speed absolutely are locked in and related in this fashion. Understanding cars in detail requires and understanding of basic science.

So again I am not saying you can predict real world track corner g force from the skidpad values on a different radius and different speed. What I am saying is that you can not take two vehicles and have one corner faster but produce less g force in the same corner with the same line!
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      10-31-2008, 05:06 PM   #9
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Quote:
Originally Posted by swamp2 View Post
This is incorrect, period. Like I posted in the other thread cornering g and speed are one and the same. For any object, planet or car, traveling in an arc that is closely/locally a section of a circle (and any line/curve can be nearly perfectly approximated in this way):

g force = speed^2/(radius x gravity constant)

Cornering g force and speed absolutely are locked in and related in this fashion. Understanding cars in detail requires and understanding of basic science.

So again I am not saying you can predict real world track corner g force from the skidpad values on a different radius and different speed. What I am saying is that you can not take two vehicles and have one corner faster but produce less g force in the same corner with the same line!
You seem to be ignoring the example I showed you in the other thread.

Quote:
Flugplatz
Enzo 100.3mph G Force 1.56 - CXX 104.0mph G Force 1.39
Either this was recorded in the Bermuda triangle where logical physics goes out the window or EVO had a typo, which I doubt.

The other examples show how speed and Lateral Gs can differ, the Enzo and CXX recording the same Gs reading through Hohe Acht, but differ in speed by 2.4mph and through Brunnchen where the speeds were all but identical yet the G figures were again different for each other.

Quote:
Hohe Acht
Enzo 66.9mph G Force 1.52 - CXX 69.3mph G Force 1.53

Brunnchen
Enzo 65.7mph G Force 1.46 - CXX 65.9mph G Force 1.52
As I said speed through a corner is a better gauge of handling ability than G figures.
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      10-31-2008, 06:26 PM   #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by footie View Post
You seem to be ignoring the example I showed you in the other thread.

Either this was recorded in the Bermuda triangle where logical physics goes out the window or EVO had a typo, which I doubt.

The other examples show how speed and Lateral Gs can differ, the Enzo and CXX recording the same Gs reading through Hohe Acht, but differ in speed by 2.4mph and through Brunnchen where the speeds were all but identical yet the G figures were again different for each other.

As I said speed through a corner is a better gauge of handling ability than G figures.
There are a plethora of other possbilities that don't require breaking the laws of physics which simply are not broken. Pretty soon you are going to tell me someone has accelerated a particle faster than the speed of light and you have a measurement to prove it. You just don't seem to get it that some things really are absolute. Like any situation where something like this occurs it is obvious that the two sides/langauages/results are not entirely on the same page. The possibilities include:

1. The measurements are not instantaneous, perhaps averaged over a short section.
2. The cars used different lines, hence different radii.
3. The accelerometers were not accurately calibrated.
4. The cars were accelerating tangentially while cornering (i.e. a corner at constant speed is still accelerating, what I mean is that the speedo was also changing).
5. The turns are banked confounding the measurement process.
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      10-31-2008, 06:44 PM   #11
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As mentioned previously, the GTR competes with the Z06, not the ZR1.

The new GTR V-Spec out next year can blow away the ZR1 .

V-spec: almost completely carbon fiber for estimated 400lbs less, no back seats, more boost to around 520+horsepower. Do the math.
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      10-31-2008, 07:24 PM   #12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by swamp2 View Post
There are a plethora of other possbilities that don't require breaking the laws of physics which simply are not broken. Pretty soon you are going to tell me someone has accelerated a particle faster than the speed of light and you have a measurement to prove it. You just don't seem to get it that some things really are absolute. Like any situation where something like this occurs it is obvious that the two sides/langauages/results are not entirely on the same page. The possibilities include:

1. The measurements are not instantaneous, perhaps averaged over a short section.
2. The cars used different lines, hence different radii.
3. The accelerometers were not accurately calibrated.
4. The cars were accelerating tangentially while cornering (i.e. a corner at constant speed is still accelerating, what I mean is that the speedo was also changing).
5. The turns are banked confounding the measurement process.
I would add that unless the instruments were on constant-level mounts, then any lean angle difference between the cars will also affect the readings.

As a by-the-way, I don't think you guys are actually disagreeing in the slightest.

Bruce
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      10-31-2008, 07:34 PM   #13
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bruce.augenstein@comcast. View Post
I would add that unless the instruments were on constant-level mounts, then any lean angle difference between the cars will also affect the readings.
Yup, that was my point #5.

Quote:
Originally Posted by bruce.augenstein@comcast. View Post
As a by-the-way, I don't think you guys are actually disagreeing in the slightest.
Well we are perhaps closer than total disagreement but I can't see how you can get to not even a slight disagreement. Foot seems to believe they numbers are free to adjust each independently (perhaps even under ideal conditions and based on how many drive wheels in the car).
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      10-31-2008, 07:39 PM   #14
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AParsh335i View Post
As mentioned previously, the GTR competes with the Z06, not the ZR1.
Not when you look at their ring times.

Quote:
Originally Posted by AParsh335i View Post
The new GTR V-Spec out next year can blow away the ZR1 .

V-spec: almost completely carbon fiber for estimated 400lbs less, no back seats, more boost to around 520+horsepower. Do the math.
Sure I'll do the math. If it is anywhere as close to as under rated at the regular model that got the 7:29 it will put out about 600 hp and that indeed will be quite a car.
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      10-31-2008, 07:49 PM   #15
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Now back to the matter in hand, the actual GTR that posted the 7:29. Swamp, I got your reply on my observation and well, what do you think?

I would prefer not to debate on the V-spec, especially with the few thousand posts already on the standard version, with the small exception that I believe the weight won't drop by 400lbs but do believe the power will approach the 600hp point (unofficially).
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      10-31-2008, 08:33 PM   #16
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GT-R got smoked.
Nice vid.

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      10-31-2008, 11:19 PM   #17
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Major props to GM...RESPECT....but on a twisting road, the ZR-1 wouldn't see which way the GT-R went.
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      11-01-2008, 12:06 AM   #18
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Quote:
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Major props to GM...RESPECT....but on a twisting road, the ZR-1 wouldn't see which way the GT-R went.
I think according to edmunds the ZR1 handles better, but is harder to drive.
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      11-01-2008, 12:39 AM   #19
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Quote:
Originally Posted by footie View Post
Don't read to much into the slalom or skidpad results. First slalom is something that usually doesn't go well for awd cars, plus you have to consider that the GTR got hellish close to the ZR1 yet weighed considerably more, it me that is some achievement.

Second skidpad figures do not prove cornering ability, the actual speed through a corner is the only thing which matters and due to the way awd car shuffle the power means they can produce less Gs but equally as quick cornering speed.

The most interesting thing on the lap with the way the two cars behaved, the GTR was ultra stabled and composed, while the ZR1 was very twitchy which they commented on and this is a smooth track and nothing like the rough and bumpy surface that makes up the ring.

P.S.
I don't want another 100 post back and forth on this, only highlighting what I know. There is no doubt the ZR1 is an amazing machine, like it's lapped the ring within a whisker of the ACR which I regard as a race car with road plates and generates real downforce.
I enjoy cars where you have to earn your lap time. The ZR-1 has the numbers and the involvement factor. Both cars are amazing, but one really appeals to me more. You seem more of a techy guy, so a paddle shifter and AWD is more your style.

Quote:
Originally Posted by De90man View Post
Major props to GM...RESPECT....but on a twisting road, the ZR-1 wouldn't see which way the GT-R went.
Did you even watch the video?
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      11-01-2008, 09:11 AM   #20
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Quote:
Originally Posted by swamp2 View Post
Yup, that was my point #5.
I wasn't referring to banked turns. I was referring to differences in lean angle of the cars around whatever turn.

Quote:
Originally Posted by swamp2 View Post
Well we are perhaps closer than total disagreement but I can't see how you can get to not even a slight disagreement. Foot seems to believe they numbers are free to adjust each independently (perhaps even under ideal conditions and based on how many drive wheels in the car).
You're both referring to the same thing, which is that a given vehicle may get through a given turn more quickly than another vehicle, while generating no more peak G, and possibly less.

You're quoting physics 101 scripture, but on the actual planet, attacking a curve in an ideal manner varies from car to car - and of course from driver to driver. The ideal line will vary, and a driver may in fact induce an "artificial" peak G via wheel or throttle action in order to get a given car to behave in a way the driver prefers, for alignment into the next turn, or whatever.

As far as I know, nobody who does skidpad tests measures average G with an accelerometer, even though that wouldn't be difficult. They do average G by measuring how long it takes to get around a circle of a given radius, and, on a racecourse, they typically only measure peak G.

As an aside, I'm guessing that measuring average G around a given turn would probably generate at least as many questions as it would answer (because of the differences involved in attacking a given curve with a given driver), so as far as I know, it's seldom done.

In any event, you two are agreeing on the primary point, mentioned in my first paragraph.

Bruce
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      11-01-2008, 03:09 PM   #21
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Celsius View Post
GTR = $80k / ZR-1 = $100+k......doesn't look like that is comparable
GTR = non ceramic rotors / ZR-1 = ceramic rotors.....not a fair comparison too
GTR = heavier / ZR-1 = WAY lighter.....apples to oranges
GTR = 400 RWHP / ZR-1 = 500 RWHP.....I dont see anything close to compare

except for the times.....


Also, the GTR is a direct comparison to the Z06!
The GTR Spec-V will compete against the ZR-1.
Point.....I think the comparison was just for fun......Everybody knows that V spec will be a more suitable competitor to ZR1.

P.S.......I love 2 cars on your signature....LS430 and GTR
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      11-01-2008, 03:34 PM   #22
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Celsius View Post
GTR = $80k / ZR-1 = $100+k......doesn't look like that is comparable
GTR = non ceramic rotors / ZR-1 = ceramic rotors.....not a fair comparison too
GTR = heavier / ZR-1 = WAY lighter.....apples to oranges
GTR = 400 RWHP / ZR-1 = 500 RWHP.....I dont see anything close to compare

except for the times.....


Also, the GTR is a direct comparison to the Z06!
The GTR Spec-V will compete against the ZR-1.
Viola! That is the whole point. How does the GT-R end up lapping the N'Ring very close to the ZR1???
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