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      10-06-2008, 08:01 PM   #1
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m3 vs. M5

i currently have an m5 with the dct and i love how the car is jerky just like it is a manual car. Now i bought an M3, is there a way to make the M3 as jerky as the M5, because i know the M3 is a lot smoother than the M5
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      10-06-2008, 08:17 PM   #2
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You don't have an m5 with dct.
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      10-06-2008, 08:33 PM   #3
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You have am M5 with "SMG" Transmission. DCT only exist in E9x M3's. That being said, i don't know the answer to your question.
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      10-06-2008, 08:35 PM   #4
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Highly doubt that you have an M5 with DCT. If you want to pretend like your driving a manual put it in S6. I'm sure that'll make it seem like your "more" involved
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      10-06-2008, 08:43 PM   #5
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Ok guys we all know that it isn't DCT, no need to rub it in, he probably just doesn't know much.
but as m2831 said, putting it in S6 will make it more involving
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      10-06-2008, 08:46 PM   #6
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Having owned both cars, I have to say that I prefer SMG over DCT. In terms of smoothness, DCT obviously takes the cake. That's why I got the M3 6sp, because I can *sorta* replicate that BANG with my foot!

There was nothing like that 8,500 RPM shift in the M5 in S6 mode
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      10-06-2008, 09:07 PM   #7
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike Benvo View Post
Having owned both cars, I have to say that I prefer SMG over DCT. In terms of smoothness, DCT obviously takes the cake. That's why I got the M3 6sp, because I can *sorta* replicate that BANG with my foot!

There was nothing like that 8,500 RPM shift in the M5 in S6 mode
8500 RPM? You must of had the ESS software raising the rev limiter.

Wait, are you Mike@ESS tuning from M5board?
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      10-06-2008, 09:11 PM   #8
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike Benvo View Post
Having owned both cars, I have to say that I prefer SMG over DCT. In terms of smoothness, DCT obviously takes the cake. That's why I got the M3 6sp, because I can *sorta* replicate that BANG with my foot!

There was nothing like that 8,500 RPM shift in the M5 in S6 mode
I've owned both cars too (2006 M5 and now 2008 M3) and I definitely prefer DCT over the SMG. The DCT can be made to shift just as jerky as the SMG did by simply putting it on S5/S6. However, it seems as if the jerk in the DCT is very artificial (as if bmw programmed it in). This is likely because I've made myself well-versed in the mechanical workings of the dual-clutch transmission and I know in my mind that DCT by design does not normally make jerky shifts even when driven hard unless it is artificially programmed in. I guess ignorance would've been bliss but so goes it. The SMG's auto mode was completely useless while I find the auto mode in the DCT actually very fun to drive and almost telepathic with regards to the gear it needs to be in no matter what my driving mood is. That said, I drive mostly with the DCT in manual S4 mode... the mode where shifts are still lightning quick but smooth enough that it won't unsettle the chassis in case of a high-G mid-corner upshift at speed, and smooth yet aggresive enough that it will still chirp the tires in 2nd and 3rd gear during hard near-redline accelerations. Fun stuff, great tranny. I recognize the improvements that can still be made (hopefully through software updates) but it's an excellent first try by bmw at dual-clutch technology and I don't miss driving a 6mt much at all.
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      10-06-2008, 09:14 PM   #9
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Quote:
Originally Posted by amgthis View Post
8500 RPM? You must of had the ESS software raising the rev limiter.

Wait, are you Mike@ESS tuning from M5board?
Yes, that's me.
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      10-06-2008, 09:16 PM   #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by masmole View Post
I've owned both cars too (2006 M5 and now 2008 M3) and I definitely prefer DCT over the SMG. The DCT can be made to shift just as jerky as the SMG did by simply putting it on S5/S6. However, it seems as if the jerk in the DCT is very artificial (as if bmw programmed it in). This is likely because I've made myself well-versed in the mechanical workings of the dual-clutch transmission and I know in my mind that DCT by design does not normally make jerky shifts even when driven hard unless it is artificially programmed in. I guess ignorance would've been bliss but so goes it. The SMG's auto mode was completely useless while I find the auto mode in the DCT actually very fun to drive and almost telepathic with regards to the gear it needs to be in no matter what my driving mood is. That said, I drive mostly with the DCT in manual S4 mode... the mode where shifts are still lightning quick but smooth enough that it won't unsettle the chassis in case of a high-G mid-corner upshift at speed, and smooth yet aggresive enough that it will still chirp the tires in 2nd and 3rd gear during hard near-redline accelerations. Fun stuff, great tranny. I recognize the improvements that can still be made (hopefully through software updates) but it's an excellent first try by bmw at dual-clutch technology and I don't miss driving a 6mt much at all.

You are absolutely correct about the SMG's auto mode being COMPLETELY useless (unless you changed the throttle inputs accordingly, which is counter intuitive to begin with). However, I never drove it in auto mode. I wish the DCT felt like the SMG when starting from a stop and during shifts. There is no comparison between an S6 SMG shift and S6 DCT shift in terms of the bang. But for smoothness and quickness around a track, DCT wins hands down.

I bought one of the first 6sp M3's that hit the market, while I currently had an 08 DCT M3 on order. After purchasing the car I cancelled the order. My buddy took delivery of his M3 DCT Coupe about a month ago, and although I think that DCT is an unbelievably genius system, it just doesn't do it for me like the SMG III did (when going balls out). For normal driving, the DCT takes the cake though. It just comes down to personal preference. There is no doubt that the technology involved with DCT is much more advanced. And I am VERY unhappy with BMW's choice of a ZF transmission from the 335 in this car for the 6sp models. The previous generations E46 M3 Getrag transmission was MUCH better.
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      10-06-2008, 11:11 PM   #11
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soo is there any way to replicate the m5 feeling to the m3's DCT
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      10-06-2008, 11:22 PM   #12
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M5 is really bangs the shift in. DCT does it artificially as mentioned, so put it in S6 mode on the DCT. I personally don't think the thunk would be as satisfying to the driver like the SMG, but then again, I have never driven both.
These shift bangs right?--http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=10Ht1...eature=related

Edit: I read the post again. You are talking about the manual gearbox feel. I dunno about that one
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      10-06-2008, 11:23 PM   #13
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Quote:
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soo is there any way to replicate the m5 feeling to the m3's DCT
Have you not read any of the thread?
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      10-06-2008, 11:36 PM   #14
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike Benvo View Post
I bought one of the first 6sp M3's that hit the market, while I currently had an 08 DCT M3 on order. After purchasing the car I cancelled the order. My buddy took delivery of his M3 DCT Coupe about a month ago, and although I think that DCT is an unbelievably genius system, it just doesn't do it for me like the SMG III did (when going balls out). For normal driving, the DCT takes the cake though. It just comes down to personal preference. There is no doubt that the technology involved with DCT is much more advanced. And I am VERY unhappy with BMW's choice of a ZF transmission from the 335 in this car for the 6sp models. The previous generations E46 M3 Getrag transmission was MUCH better.
Agree 100% with everything you say here. Have you thought about installing a SSK to alleviate some of the 6MT's weaknesses?
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      10-07-2008, 05:13 AM   #15
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DCT shifts in S6 are brutal, way more so than SMG.
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      10-07-2008, 07:41 AM   #16
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike Benvo View Post
Yes, that's me.
My sentiments exactly. I do not want a surge that upsets the chasis - smooth is better. And S4 is smooth. I much prefer the dct to the smgII I had in my e46M3.
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      10-07-2008, 08:34 AM   #17
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DCT Shifts on S6 with full throttle is scary as hell.. I think that packs quite a bang.

I think the trick with DCT is when you put it as high shifts mode (S5-S6) and you put full throttle, the car is extremely jerky and hard when it shifts. However, if you put half throttle and shift at 4,000 - 5,000 rpm, the car is not as jerky. I think the whole purpose is for the car to be jerky and rough when you want it to be while smooth and cultured when you desire it. But I definitely realized that the throttle definitely affects the 'jerkiness' when you shifts gear with the DCT.

I down own and drive an E60 on a daily basis but I have test driven an M5 E60. IMHO, I recall that it was not be as exciting when I wanted the rush or as smooth as I wanted it to be.
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      10-07-2008, 12:20 PM   #18
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TLud View Post
Agree 100% with everything you say here. Have you thought about installing a SSK to alleviate some of the 6MT's weaknesses?
I thought about it, but in a sense it seems counter intuitive. If I install an SSK, then I'll have no recourse for this problem at the dealer. I've brought it to them about four times regarding the issue, and my friends brand new AW
E90 M3 coupe does the same thing. BMW should never have used this transmission in this car.

I'm real upset about this unsmoothness. I have owned many BMW's in the past, and although I love the M3 and all of it's characteristics, I want my E60 M5 back due to the transmission. I paid about 10K more for the M3 than I did for the M5, and I somtimes regret not getting another E60. The only benefit for me is the nimbleness of the M3 and the gas mileage. Everything else about the M5 took the cake (less the SMG in auto mode). But then again I don't have auto mode at all so I can't complain!
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