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      10-23-2008, 02:05 PM   #89
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I'll be the first to admit that I like my gadgets and toys. If the M weren't my daily driver, I could pick and choose which trips to take it on. I could save it for twisty and challenging roads where my focus is simply on driving. The problem is, I have to drive in a city with traffic, where distractions like the stereo system and conveniences like nav with traffic alerts are necessary for sanity. I also like sound proofing. I suspect that I'm not alone in this regard. Take away all or most of this, and you'd have a very light and nimble car. You'd also have a Lotus. You know, I'm sure better than most, that the M3 has always been about striking the right balance, which is extremely subjective.

That said, ruff, I do see your point that the gadgets and technology might be taking focus and resources away from other performance-oriented priorities. Do I wish that BMW had introduced direct injection with this engine? Sure. Do I wish that the brakes were a little more suitable for track work out of the box? Sure. Would I like more steering feel? Certainly. But those weaknesses have all been acknowledged and discussed ad infinitum, and I personally don't see (with the exception of the brakes, maybe) most owners defending those weaknesses or lowering their expectations. I've found that most of the regulars here are fairly honest in their assessments of the M3.
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      10-23-2008, 02:07 PM   #90
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Just go with the car you like. There is always a faster car. With the 1000mph car project in the UK under way, GTR, M3, etc. suck to say the least.... I personally, love the sound and and driving experience of M3. It's just does it for me, even knowing that this is not the best performing car in the world. Let's also be realistic, how fast can you go in 35mph zone and keep your license...
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      10-23-2008, 02:14 PM   #91
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I see BMW's current innovation as multiple progression bars that get averaged into their latest current model line-up. Or, in more simple terms I see BMW's course of innovation occuring in many different areas. Picture each different aspect of a car having potential and this potential measured on a ruler. Each area (weight, comfort, aesthetic, style, speed) starts at 1 on the ruler. When a breakthrough in one major area is made and that field moves up the ruler then I believe they would begin to work on a different weaker (or older) area until it catches up. If no major breakthroughs are made that jump a field up its potential ruler, then the catch-up process is drawn out. In this case in particular (with regards to your arguement about light materials instead of complex user systems) I think the appearance of Carbon Fiber is the break through in materials science. Leaving the significant limiting factor as the driver in terms of performance. So, improving the driver and his decision and control over the car would be much more beneficial than making the car lighter. Its true that in 5 years after a peice of software is developed and implemented it may show some significant bugs. These bugs will get worked out however, and in a short time after these aforementioned 5 years, the bugs will go away. Take for example idrive. Over time it has been improved upon as we see with this new iteration in 2009. But the original idrive wasn't the human interface breakthrough that BMW perhaps hoped it would be, so we are left with the steady progression of the driver interface and control over the car until they catch up on the potential ruler. The driver, still, being the limiting factor in performance. Also, I imagine there is a cost effective barrier witholding any greater application of light-weight materials than we have already seen. (Not to mention any basic physics related barriers preventing further improvement in weight reduction.)

When you couple all of the above aspects with the current market of automobiles, I don't mean the economy shit-hole we are in, I mean consumer products and industry standards. Products being made user friendly, widely adaptable for every individual because we are all different, and aesthetically appealing because looks matter in everything. BMW can't simply be the introvert and ignore the growing human aspect considerations that are being made by competitors. They are the ultimate 'Driving' machine, not the ultimate 'racing' machine. Driving involves comfort, thrills, and relaxation even. While this is an enthusiast's car, we are still only a portion of their sales.
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      10-23-2008, 02:22 PM   #92
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this is like trying to compare/justify buying $800 D&G jeans (M3/M5/M6/porsche) to $65 Levi's jeans (GT-R)...

completely diff cars, for diff people w/ diff financial circumstances and diff tastes, wants and needs...
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      10-23-2008, 02:23 PM   #93
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Imagine what it would do for the performance of these cars if BMW would take out the human error part of the equation, but still made the cars just as thrilling and involving to drive. This, I imagine, would be the ultimate goal of all these aids and complexities of any car. Then, once this goal was met the limiting factor would return to being the car itself and its weight : power : balance.

The Interface is also much cheaper to produce and innovate on right now than materials as well. And each car we see during a drawn out innovation process is only a snap-shot so to speak of where that innovation is at.
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      10-23-2008, 02:28 PM   #94
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TLud View Post
That said, ruff, I do see your point that the gadgets and technology might be taking focus and resources away from other performance-oriented priorities. Do I wish that BMW had introduced direct injection with this engine? Sure. Do I wish that the brakes were a little more suitable for track work out of the box? Sure. Would I like more steering feel? Certainly. But those weaknesses have all been acknowledged and discussed ad infinitum, and I personally don't see (with the exception of the brakes, maybe) most owners defending those weaknesses or lowering their expectations. I've found that most of the regulars here are fairly honest in their assessments of the M3.
Pretty sure that the technology for DFI at such a high RPM isn't at the cost point where it would be feasible for application into a consumer product. At least, I remember reading something about this being the case. I could certainly be wrong in this aspect however.
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      10-23-2008, 02:37 PM   #95
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Pretty sure that the technology for DFI at such a high RPM isn't at the cost point where it would be feasible for application into a consumer product. At least, I remember reading something about this being the case. I could certainly be wrong in this aspect however.
I don't remember the specific reason why the DFI wasn't introduced, but I do remember some BMW executive providing an explanation as to why or how it wasn't ready yet. Can't find it now though.
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      10-23-2008, 02:49 PM   #96
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I don't remember the specific reason why the DFI wasn't introduced, but I do remember some BMW executive providing an explanation as to why or how it wasn't ready yet. Can't find it now though.
The M Division basically loped of two cylinders of the S85 to cut costs and time. It is also difficult to combine the latest version of DFI with high reving power plants, though Ferrari is now moving forward with it beginning with the California. Lambo just introduced it in the LP560-4 with excellent power to efficiency results.
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      10-23-2008, 02:57 PM   #97
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The M Division basically loped of two cylinders of the S85 to cut costs and time. It is also difficult to combine the latest version of DFI with high reving power plants, though Ferrari is now moving forward with it beginning with the California. Lambo just introduced it in the LP560-4 with excellent power to efficiency results.
So, sounds pretty much like the technology has a good chance of being in the next M3.
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      10-23-2008, 03:40 PM   #98
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RS4 had DFI also.
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      10-23-2008, 03:44 PM   #99
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all of this coming from a person who owns a 91 accord?

Cmon man an m3 is an m3

And the m3 was never aimed to beat a gtr..

Sorry to say but i would take a M3 over a gtr anyday of the week.

The car has luxury looks speed and everything else i desire. Its not a daily driver, i beg to differ. How so?..

I own a 335 and i would get an m3 in a heartbeat!
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      10-23-2008, 03:49 PM   #100
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Quote:
Originally Posted by UltimateBMW View Post
So, sounds pretty much like the technology has a good chance of being in the next M3.
When the M3 was being developed, the economy was growing and fuel prices were both stable and reasonable. With the advent of the current world economy and it's woes, IMO, the M Division has no choice but to switch to direct injection. Hopefully they will not feel the need to resort to FI. I find it fascinating that BMW flaunts itself as the leader in technological innovations yet employs old world port injection in their own power plants. Just as an example of the benefits of DFI: The 09 C2S new mileage rating is 19 city and 27 highway with PDK. The stick, I believe, is a mile per gallon less. It achieves a remarkable 8.5 percent horsepower increase while at the same time reducing C02 emissions by 15.2 percent and using 12.8 percent less fuel than last years model.

I suspect the S65 is being tweaked in DFI form as we speak.
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      10-23-2008, 03:58 PM   #101
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When the M3 was being developed, the economy was growing and fuel prices were both stable and reasonable.
??? Right, when was the economy stable again ??? before or after 1900? You sound like BMW was living in its own world separate from others....
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      10-23-2008, 04:01 PM   #102
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Quote:
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When the M3 was being developed, the economy was growing and fuel prices were both stable and reasonable...
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??? Right, when was the economy stable again ??? before or after 1900? You sound like BMW was living in its own world separate from others....
Don't misquote the man. He didn't say the economy was stable. He said the economy was growing and fuel prices were stable, which was the case when the S65 was being developed.
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      10-23-2008, 04:02 PM   #103
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RS4 had DFI also.
First generation DFI. The RS4 mpg rating is 13/20 which is wash with the M3 considering it has AWD. Audi is known for having poor fuel mileage when compared to similarly equipped BMWs. Audi is starting to address their fuel mileage woes with the upcoming supercharged V6 S4.
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      10-23-2008, 04:07 PM   #104
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Don't misquote the man. He didn't say the economy was stable. He said the economy was growing and fuel prices were stable, which was the case when the S65 was being developed.
To me when the economy is growing and the fuel prices are stable, this means the economy is stable...

But don't want to argue that I "misquoted" or not, just wanted to say that I think that BMW knows what it does...
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      10-23-2008, 04:13 PM   #105
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all of this coming from a person who owns a 91 accord?

Cmon man an m3 is an m3

And the m3 was never aimed to beat a gtr..

Sorry to say but i would take a M3 over a gtr anyday of the week.

The car has luxury looks speed and everything else i desire. Its not a daily driver, i beg to differ. How so?..

I own a 335 and i would get an m3 in a heartbeat!
The 335 is a great car. Have you heard that BMW may be ready to build a 335tii with a possible power bump, possible LSD option, and hopefully subjected to a strict diet plan?
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      10-23-2008, 04:17 PM   #106
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The 335 is a great car. Have you heard that BMW may be ready to build a 335tii with a possible power bump, possible LSD option, and hopefully subjected to a strict diet plan?
Now that would be an interesting car, but I doubt that the weight reduction would be significant. Any links to this info ruff?
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      10-23-2008, 04:24 PM   #107
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Now that would be an interesting car, but I doubt that the weight reduction would be significant. Any links to this info ruff?
I highly doubt a significant weight reduction as well, but I like dreaming.

http://www.e90post.com/forums/showthread.php?t=177842
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      10-23-2008, 04:44 PM   #108
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I highly doubt a significant weight reduction as well, but I like dreaming.

http://www.e90post.com/forums/showthread.php?t=177842
That post has no credited source. I haven't heard anything about a 3 series Tii. I kind of doubt BMW would make it since it would severely impede what little M3 sales are going on right now. I'm not saying they won't, but I'm not holding my breathe.
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      10-23-2008, 05:22 PM   #109
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That post has no credited source. I haven't heard anything about a 3 series Tii. I kind of doubt BMW would make it since it would severely impede what little M3 sales are going on right now. I'm not saying they won't, but I'm not holding my breathe.
I believe I read about it in Roundel. I'll try to scan the article in when I get home if I haven't thrown the issue out already.
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      10-23-2008, 05:32 PM   #110
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Krueger, you are much too kind. More so than I deserve. I have responded to you a number of times because I respect your opinion. I apologize for my less than kind words in my previous response.
Thanks!
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