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      10-03-2008, 04:19 PM   #1
ruff
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The best thing that ever happened to the M Division

and for that matter the rest of the sports car world:

The Nissan GT-R.

Gotta love the outcry of incestuous whining among the car manufactures and their fanboys about this car.

Let me start with Porsche and their cult following. Porsche simply needs to shut up, step up to the plate and produce, especially given their highway robbery price points. Porsche can't beat Nissan right now, in fact they can't even compete, when comparing dollar to dollar. Porsche's hand has now been forced. The monopoly is over, thank you very much Nissan.

BMW doesn't produce any car, even a 100k one that can compete with the GT-R. This is not my opinion, this is a fact. BMW enthusiasts need to write a letter of thanks to Nissan for waking up the M Division, who have been asleep at the wheel for two too many German winters.

I find it fascinating when E92 M3 enthusiasts like to say the GT-R is not a direct competitor to the M3. They say this for one reason and one reason only, the M3 does not perform up to Nissan standards. So who is the M3's direct competitor, the four dour ISF, the four door C63, and the four door RS4, simply because it can beat them consistently on the track? Or how about the two door, four seat GT-R configured the same as the M3?

That leads to the argument about the M3 being the best all around daily driver. Answer is: it use to be. This M3 is no longer a great daily driver for one simple reason: It is a gas pig, especially for a lightweight low torque 4 litre V8. To put it in to perspective, the Viper's 600 hp 8.4 litre V10 with gargantuan levels of torque is able to attain a 13/22 mileage rating. Think about it.

Dct has been a disappointment. No real efficiency advantage as advertised and glitches that actually make it a liability at the track. On the other hand, The GT-R's dct transmission is an advantage at the track.

The M3 brakes are what they are, good stoppers but fade prone and not up to extended track work. How about the argument that multi piston are not an advancement over single piston? And what will we be saying when the M3 finally gets multi-piston stoppers? Who among us will still cling to the mantra that single piston is better? Love the argument that nice looking painted brakes are not desirable, yet these same people spend more than a grand to buy 19" bling wheels that slightly reduce performance over the standard 18s.

Thanks to the the the GT-R, the poor economy, high fuel prices, and even the CTS-V and R8, I believe in the near future, the M division is going to once again be at the head of it's class at building the best all around sports car for the money. You watch, world class engine and drivetrains + DFI and light weight materials = world beater at a reasonable price.
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      10-03-2008, 04:27 PM   #2
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nobody was hating on the gtr dbag
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      10-03-2008, 04:33 PM   #3
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most of us love the GTR. GTR is not a competitor to M3 coz not only it beats it by far in terms of performance but also technology. you forgot RS5 as a competitor to m3 which is a 4 seater 2 door coupe

the GTR was aimed at 997tt, not at anything else. GTR is a very stiff ride, the M3 and its competitors are "luxury" comfortable fast rides.

I'm not sure how GTR woke up the M division. i still dont see a car that can compete with it, not today, not tomorrow.

The japanese have done great work on the GTR, it's a brilliant piece of engineering for sure, and competition will always bring the best to us, consumers.

it's unfortunately but yes 80% of M3 drivers get it coz its the "top of the line 3 sports car from bmw", and they do throw some bling bling shit on it, most dont know how to drive it, cant appreciate the performance aspects it offers. it's sad, but true.

DCT is on its first release, it is like any other thing bound to have bugs which are being worked on. do you know that the GTR is bug-free?? no!
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      10-03-2008, 04:36 PM   #4
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ruff - you make good points. The M3 is a great machine - I drove it for 450 km on the track. The GT-R is a better preforming car that is for sure and I do see it as competing with the E92 M3 - and winning. Some people say it's a Nissan and it is - but it is a great car!
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      10-03-2008, 04:48 PM   #5
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Quote:
Originally Posted by enfield View Post
ruff - you make good points. The M3 is a great machine - I drove it for 450 km on the track. The GT-R is a better preforming car that is for sure and I do see it as competing with the E92 M3 - and winning. Some people say it's a Nissan and it is - but it is a great car!
+1!
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      10-03-2008, 04:50 PM   #6
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This thread serves no real purpose.

Everything that was mentioned is pretty much a given. Apparently, we aren't allowed to like the M3 for what it is. Are we expected to always like and be enthusiastic about the biggest, bestest, fastest thing out there?

Nobody here has ever bashed the GTR. Half of the poeple here would probably take one, if made available, over the M3. But the car itself isn't the only issue in buying and owning a car. Nissan warranty, Nissan service department, and Nissan Techs. You'll be sitting in the same waiting room as the soccer moms and the ricers. This may be viewed as derogatory or it may not be. But its the truth, and no matter how fast your car is you won't out run that. Not to mention, as of any order put into their system after Sept. 5th the price of the GTR was increased by, nearest makes no difference, $8,000. Coming in to a MSRP of ~$87,900 for the premium trim version of the GTR. Add dealer mark-ups (Typically $10k) and it is by no means in the price range of an M3 anymore at a 'out the door' price of over $100k.

Kudos for trying to come up with some kind of drama inducing thread. Though, I believe we are pretty content in our choice. And through our confidence in our choice and the M3, its only logical that we would rationalize any possible negative aspect of it. ie. single piston brakes, heavy weight, low gas mileage. The car feels great to drive, and that is what we are buying. The thrills!
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      10-03-2008, 04:54 PM   #7
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sorry but I need my backseats
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      10-03-2008, 05:12 PM   #8
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To the OP: Nice read. Also, curious.. have you driven the new M3?
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      10-03-2008, 05:36 PM   #9
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ruff View Post

That leads to the argument about the M3 being the best all around daily driver. Answer is: it use to be. This M3 is no longer a great daily driver for one simple reason: It is a gas pig, especially for a lightweight low torque 4 litre V8. To put it in to perspective, the Viper's 600 hp 8.4 litre V10 with gargantuan levels of torque is able to attain a 13/22 mileage rating. Think about it.
i stopped reading after this stupid point... LOW TORQUE? uh huh..

you're comparing a 6 cyl turbo vs an 8 cyl naturally aspirated.. basicly you want us to say thank you and wake up M division? if i ever decided to go away from the M tradition of naturally aspirated and put in turbo.. a turbo charged M3 will kill the gtr. sorry buddy but you were never comparing apples to apples.. just the price tag.

nice try though..
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      10-03-2008, 05:42 PM   #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rob612 View Post
i stopped reading after this stupid point... LOW TORQUE? uh huh..

you're comparing a 6 cyl turbo vs an 8 cyl naturally aspirated.. basicly you want us to say thank you and wake up M division? if i ever decided to go away from the M tradition of naturally aspirated and put in turbo.. a turbo charged M3 will kill the gtr. sorry buddy but you were never comparing apples to apples.. just the price tag.

nice try though..
+ a bazillion
btw what crawled up the OP's ass
what's with the hate for no reason?
go PMS somewhere else
this place is reserved for positive minded enthusiasts
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      10-03-2008, 05:46 PM   #11
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ruff is always here to stir the pot. =)
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      10-03-2008, 05:58 PM   #12
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Why does everyone think the Nissan GTR is rewriting the book... the R33 GTR ran 7:59 around the ring in 1997... even the new M3 cant do that.... The GTR is just new to the states...move on

GTR's have been spanking M3's for decades... so have Porsche's, so get over it

Nothing new here...move along now

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      10-03-2008, 06:04 PM   #13
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ruff View Post
and for that matter the rest of the sports car world:


BMW doesn't produce any car, even a 100k one that can compete with the GT-R. This is not my opinion, this is a fact. BMW enthusiasts need to write a letter of thanks to Nissan for waking up the M Division, who have been asleep at the wheel for two too many German winters.
This point is almost laughable. Since when has BMW ever produced a car than can compete with a GTR. Not the R32, Not the R33, Certainly not the R34...and here we are again... not the R35...

I hate this GTR BS because people think this car came out of nowhere... The R35 is the latest of a long line of BMW beaters...

BMW does not care!
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Last edited by JEllis; 10-03-2008 at 06:20 PM.
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      10-03-2008, 06:14 PM   #14
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ruff: Just buy a GT-R and be proud that you are the only one who sees the light.
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      10-03-2008, 06:20 PM   #15
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I find it amusing an accord driver has to come tell us this fascinating news.
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      10-03-2008, 06:41 PM   #16
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i think he has a point when it gets everyone's panties in a bunch.
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      10-03-2008, 06:45 PM   #17
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I sense complete hypocrisy.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ruff View Post
The M3 is an incredible car: A visual and auditory delight. It is quick, fast, well balanced, and agile on it's feet. It even has room for a party of four to enjoy the whole magic carpet ride together. A heritage only matched by the Corvette and 911. It offers two excellent tranmission choices and the best trick LSD in a production car. The M boys did us good. I love M3s like no other car.

Through no fault of their own, the M boys couldn't have been unluckier in the timing of the release of their latest beast. Economics and fuel prices are in the process of killing the sales of this car. This is good for the current M owner and the enthusiast who can look past the present and into the future and see the much bigger picture. The high revving flat torqued S65 is an "exotic" sounding and performing piece of engineering genius that could of pushed the M3 into 80+k territory. Instead, one with a fair amount of means, can purchase a base car at bargain basement price of less than 60k and they even throw in a free car and maintenance to boot. Who would of thunk?

What are BMW and the M division to do in economic times that resemble the 70s. May I make some humble suggestions. FI needs to be the future of BMW but not the M Division. I hope BMW sticks with the basic configuration of the S65. They had better be working on implementing cutting edge DFI technology and the much ballyhooed KERS technology into a new S65. Imagine in few short years the M3 gaining a second life with a NA powerplant that now generates in the neighborhood of 450 hp with a high red line, flat as a table top torque curve and weighs the same or if we are real lucky, a bit less than the current car. And here is the kicker 23+ mpg highway and NO gas guzzler tax. DFI is the critical component to making this car happen. The same treatment can be done to the amazing S85 V10. Again, as I have argued until I am blue in the face, DFI is the critical component here. The R&D needs to be spent there, rather than the current focus of hocus pocus and overly complicated electronics that dilute the driving experience, drive up cost, and create reliability issues galore.

Then BMW can finally bring to market a true halo M car, the worthy successor to the vaunted M1. A V8/V10 configured mid engine car weighing significantly less than the M3 and at a slightly lower price point than a heavier all wheel drive R8...I like dreaming, especially about playing cat and mouse with an F430.

Finally, BMW must decide to CPO their current and future M cars. To not, is simply conceding to the wise consumer what BMW must already understand that owning an M for more than a few years will be a reliability and money pit nightmare. BMW stop washing your hands of your M cars once the dotted line has been signed. Simplify your cars and make them more reliable and support your own product with a CPO stamp of approval.
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      10-03-2008, 07:42 PM   #18
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I got a good laugh out of this post.

its quite hysterical.
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      10-03-2008, 07:53 PM   #19
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this from an Accord driver?
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      10-03-2008, 08:19 PM   #20
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The GTR performance argument is getting old. There are many factors that go into the decision making process when you purchase a new vehicle. 'Enthusiasts' would consider track performance and 0-60 times etc as one of those variables. But I stress ONE of those variables. It is silly to think that the consumer (even a sports car enthusiast) just wants the fastest car.

The flip side is that the auto industry is also not trying to just develop the fastest street legal car. BMW is not and does not want to produce an M3competitive with the GTR. They have no reason to. They are balancing the needs of different consumers to provide a solution that works for a number of individuals with different priorities. Every enthusiast doesn't necessarily want to have the fastest car on the track with major compromises for everyday livability. Not to mention the GTR is so loaded with technical 'helpers' that the driver often becomes detached from the experience.

Based on the fact that you seem to believe everyone is out to produce the fastest car, I guess Nissan needs to go back to the drawing board since the Viper ACR is significantly faster on the track. So Dodge must be light years ahead of Porsche and Nissan .

This is laughable. Nissan built a very nice fast car at a reasonable price, but it hardly resets the standard for other manufacturers with different goals.

On a side note, if you read most professional reviews of the GTR, it seems the writers would ultimately take a Porsche over a GTR even though it may produce a slower lap - back to the basic concept that achieving the fastest lap isn't the 'end all be all' of a performance car.
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      10-03-2008, 08:25 PM   #21
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hey ruff, I drive an M3 cause' it makes me smile... my bet is that you don't smile much
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      10-03-2008, 08:33 PM   #22
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Yes the GT-R can out-perform the M3 in all technical catagories, but where the M3 shines is the feeling of driving it. The perfect balance, connected steering, agile chassis, high-reving V8...

A car is not just about setting lap times, it's also about the fun of driving it.
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