BMW M3 Forum (E90 E92)

BMW Garage BMW Meets Register Search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read


Go Back   M3Post - BMW M3 Forum > M3 (E90 / E92 / E93) > M3 vs....
 
Post Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
      02-11-2009, 05:21 PM   #397
footie
Major General
footie's Avatar
No_Country
155
Rep
7,507
Posts

 
Drives: ????????????
Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: BMW M3 will get a V6TT

iTrader: (0)

Garage List
2008 E92 M3  [0.00]
Quote:
Originally Posted by Garissimo View Post
With all those caveats, I could possibly accept the "outlier" case of the 7:29 lap.

My question is, has Nissan represented this 7:29 ring time as typical for a production GT-R? If so, they should rightfully be raked over the coals for it.
Do you really believe that everyone will match either the ACR or ZR1 lap times?

We all have to look at these lap times objectively, they are all pretty much one-offs achieved be extremely gifted drivers who know the track and the cars better than almost anyone else will.........ever.
Appreciate 0
      02-11-2009, 07:07 PM   #398
T Bone
Brigadier General
T Bone's Avatar
144
Rep
4,021
Posts

 
Drives: 2008 335xi Coupe
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: The land where we kill baby seals

iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by lucid View Post
Those are the stats for that specific sample. If you change the sample, the stats might change. If you put a F1 driver in every single car that was included in that sample and give it ultra sticky tires, that would change the sample and the regression line, and the deviation of the GTR from that line. I am sure the GTR would still look like an outlier, but I bet we would see the deviation come down. That's why I am interested in doing a regression on a select set of cars with just the Sportauto times.
I wish we had a data set full of cars piloted by magazines and then the same cars, same day piloted by F1 drivers.

In this case if the means of the 2 normal curves + 1 standard deviation gets a GTR to 7:30 then I would believe the time.....

I thought the internet had all the data mankind ever needed
__________________
"Aerodynamics are for people who cannot build engines"......Enzo Ferrari
Appreciate 0
      02-12-2009, 01:10 AM   #399
swamp2
Lieutenant General
swamp2's Avatar
United_States
214
Rep
10,201
Posts

 
Drives: E92 M3
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: San Diego, CA USA

iTrader: (1)

Quote:
Originally Posted by footie View Post
Though to be perfectly honest with you I can't accept that the GTR didn't do the lap and the reason being I totally believe it was done, the regression data is too incomplete to be viewed as gospel. In fact for swamp to almost disregard the S3's lap time because it was so good in comparison to the cars with similar simga figures as a misprint says it all. You can't pick and chose what you want to believe just because it doesn't fit into a perfect little model, shit happens..........deal with it.
Let's be clear you and I both agree that the car is in the range of 10% under rated (the 7:29 car and regular production cars as well) and that a 7:29 is simply not possbile with stated hp. The regression model does a wonderful job of pointing this out. The S3 with -2 sigma on the 'Ring is in a whole different ballpark (different universe) than the GT-R with 480 hp at -3.5 sigma. It absolutely is not a linear scale between probabilities and sigma (please recall my multiple posts on this). Of course the model is not perfect, no one claimed it it, it is STATISTICAL in nature, but it does a darn good job of finding outliers in a rigorous/mathematical/unbiased fashion. It simply is not the case that outliers mean the model is no good. It means something is going on, I have listed long, detailed, thorough lists of the many things that could be "going on" in the past. Clearly something did go on with the GT-R, it is underrated and the model showed it. Something else is going on with that S3 time as well, something.
Appreciate 0
      02-12-2009, 01:21 AM   #400
swamp2
Lieutenant General
swamp2's Avatar
United_States
214
Rep
10,201
Posts

 
Drives: E92 M3
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: San Diego, CA USA

iTrader: (1)

Quote:
Originally Posted by T Bone View Post
I wish we had a data set full of cars piloted by magazines and then the same cars, same day piloted by F1 drivers.

In this case if the means of the 2 normal curves + 1 standard deviation gets a GTR to 7:30 then I would believe the time.....

I thought the internet had all the data mankind ever needed
We already have some idea of the spread due to drivers on the 'Ring. Not statistics, but a solid idea of the magnitude of the differences. I made a post on the topic and Bruce provided some additional data points some time ago. The numbers were in the range of 2-6 seconds. Now granted these were variations among elite drivers but not quite the elite of the elite, say F1 guys. The GT-R with 480 hp is overperforming the regression by about 33 seconds. There is no way the driver alone makes the difference. Just above Bruce echoed the fairly widely held conclusion:
  • ~530hp
  • Perfect car specimen
  • Amazing tires (near race rubber)
  • Ex F1 driver
  • Massive Nissan effort (technical support and lap quantity)
  • Excellent weather and track conditions
  • Dirtied undergarments
  • Etc.
  • Viola: 7:29
Appreciate 0
      02-12-2009, 02:44 AM   #401
Robin_NL
S0THPAW
Robin_NL's Avatar
Netherlands
82
Rep
4,696
Posts

 
Drives: AW 1M , Assetto Corsa
Join Date: Apr 2005
Location: The Netherlands, Europe

iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by footie View Post
If Horst reckon he would be capable of achieving a 7:40 lap in better conditions within his three lap 'supertest' then I believe it is perfectly acceptable for Nissan with their chief development test driver who happens to be much more skilled behind the wheel than Horst and knows the track just as well and the car a million times better to do the lap they did.
So you're saying that Horst can do a lap in a stock GTR about 11 seconds slow from Suzuki in the 'stock'(?)GTR?

Which theoretically means a (ex)F1 driver or Marc Basseng(D) or Tom Coronel(NL) or Michael Vergers(NL) or Stefan Roser(D) or whoever is a pro driver at the Ring could do a lap in a stock E9xM3 6MT in about 7:54 LOL. That's what I am interested in.
Appreciate 0
      02-12-2009, 02:55 AM   #402
Robin_NL
S0THPAW
Robin_NL's Avatar
Netherlands
82
Rep
4,696
Posts

 
Drives: AW 1M , Assetto Corsa
Join Date: Apr 2005
Location: The Netherlands, Europe

iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by T Bone View Post
I wish we had a data set full of cars piloted by magazines and then the same cars, same day piloted by F1 drivers.

In this case if the means of the 2 normal curves + 1 standard deviation gets a GTR to 7:30 then I would believe the time.....

I thought the internet had all the data mankind ever needed
Well said.

A car is as good as its driver.
Appreciate 0
      02-12-2009, 03:10 AM   #403
footie
Major General
footie's Avatar
No_Country
155
Rep
7,507
Posts

 
Drives: ????????????
Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: BMW M3 will get a V6TT

iTrader: (0)

Garage List
2008 E92 M3  [0.00]
Quote:
Originally Posted by Robin Hood View Post
So you're saying that Horst can do a lap in a stock GTR about 11 seconds slow from Suzuki in the 'stock'(?)GTR?

Which theoretically means a (ex)F1 driver or Marc Basseng(D) or Tom Coronel(NL) or Michael Vergers(NL) or Stefan Roser(D) or whoever is a pro driver at the Ring could do a lap in a stock E9xM3 6MT in about 7:54 LOL. That's what I am interested in.
IS IT POSSIBLE FOR AN M3 TO KNOCK 11s OFF HORST'S TIME?

Two words : Frank Stipler.

I sincerely believe that in the right hands the M3 is capable of in the seven fifty something, what that might actually end up I honest don't know. Though I will add that the behaviour and handling charactistics of a rwd car to that of an awd one is different and it's not necessarily the case that the same driver (even a good one) will pull the best out of each.

If you drive a rwd car as neatly as possible you achieve the best out of it but if you drive an awd likewise it will not. Most awd cars you need to be beyond neat, to get a four wheel drift at times is the optimum way.
Appreciate 0
      02-12-2009, 03:49 AM   #404
Robin_NL
S0THPAW
Robin_NL's Avatar
Netherlands
82
Rep
4,696
Posts

 
Drives: AW 1M , Assetto Corsa
Join Date: Apr 2005
Location: The Netherlands, Europe

iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by footie View Post
IS IT POSSIBLE FOR AN M3 TO KNOCK 11s OFF HORST'S TIME?

Two words : Frank Stipler.

I sincerely believe that in the right hands the M3 is capable of in the seven fifty something, what that might actually end up I honest don't know. Though I will add that the behaviour and handling charactistics of a rwd car to that of an awd one is different and it's not necessarily the case that the same driver (even a good one) will pull the best out of each.

If you drive a rwd car as neatly as possible you achieve the best out of it but if you drive an awd likewise it will not. Most awd cars you need to be beyond neat, to get a four wheel drift at times is the optimum way.
You're right, Frank Stippler could also do the job.
Appreciate 0
      02-12-2009, 03:56 AM   #405
Robin_NL
S0THPAW
Robin_NL's Avatar
Netherlands
82
Rep
4,696
Posts

 
Drives: AW 1M , Assetto Corsa
Join Date: Apr 2005
Location: The Netherlands, Europe

iTrader: (0)

Come to think of it: The 430 Scuderia(my favourite 'normally available' sportscar at the moment) did the job in 7:39 with also Horst behind the wheel. Which means 7:28 theoretically with [insert F1 driver]could be possible.

Haleluja praise the Lord. LOL



Sorry for OT though...
Appreciate 0
      02-12-2009, 04:19 AM   #406
footie
Major General
footie's Avatar
No_Country
155
Rep
7,507
Posts

 
Drives: ????????????
Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: BMW M3 will get a V6TT

iTrader: (0)

Garage List
2008 E92 M3  [0.00]
Quote:
Originally Posted by Robin Hood View Post
Come to think of it: The 430 Scuderia(my favourite 'normally available' sportscar at the moment) did the job in 7:39 with also Horst behind the wheel. Which means 7:28 theoretically with [insert F1 driver]could be possible.

Haleluja praise the Lord. LOL



Sorry for OT though...
It's possible, but you may have to look at Horst's track record with awd cars, he's only 2 seconds out with the GT2 compared to Walter but is 11 seconds out compared to Stipler. Maybe his driving style suit rwd cars better, who knows.

But I reckon you maybe right about the F430 Scuderia, on other tracks the four rivals are always extremely close in lap times, the F430scud, the GT2, the LP560/4 and the GTR so if the GTR has done a 7:29 and the GT2 did a 7:32 you could well expected the Ferrari to be around either of those times in the right hands and on the right day.
Appreciate 0
      02-12-2009, 09:18 AM   #407
bruce.augenstein@comcast.
Lieutenant Colonel
21
Rep
1,908
Posts

 
Drives: Legacy GT - 13.704@99.39
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: Manheim, PA

iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Robin Hood View Post
So you're saying that Horst can do a lap in a stock GTR about 11 seconds slow from Suzuki in the 'stock'(?)GTR?

Which theoretically means a (ex)F1 driver or Marc Basseng(D) or Tom Coronel(NL) or Michael Vergers(NL) or Stefan Roser(D) or whoever is a pro driver at the Ring could do a lap in a stock E9xM3 6MT in about 7:54 LOL. That's what I am interested in.
As is the norm with all things 'Ring, it gets a little complicated. I personally doubt that a U.S. spec M3 could be herded into a sub eight minute time, but as long as the Euro version is available from the factory with PSC+ sneakers, I have little doubt that a cockpit assassin would get solidly into the sevens.

The 8:05 time was set with both PSC+ rubber and the over-the-counter hot-damn brake pads not available from the assembly line. Not sure what the brakes were worth, but figure at least a second a minute from the tires over PS2s, as the PSC+ tires are in fact PSCs with one additional tread groove -same as offered in the GT3, etc.

Bruce
Appreciate 0
      02-12-2009, 09:25 AM   #408
southlight
Moderator / European Editor
southlight's Avatar
607
Rep
6,748
Posts

 
Drives: BMW
Join Date: Apr 2006
Location: Germany

iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by bruce.augenstein@comcast. View Post
The 8:05 time was set with both PSC+ rubber and the over-the-counter hot-damn brake pads not available from the assembly line. Not sure what the brakes were worth, but figure at least a second a minute from the tires over PS2s, as the PSC+ tires are in fact PSCs with one additional tread groove -same as offered in the GT3, etc.

Bruce
My understanding was that the PSC+ also has a new tire compound that differs from the PSC's.

http://www.reifenpresse.de/CDML007/e...97&RecID=14471



Best regards, south
__________________
Those forums...WHY NOT?


JOIN THE 6MT CLUB GROUP
Appreciate 0
      02-12-2009, 09:41 AM   #409
footie
Major General
footie's Avatar
No_Country
155
Rep
7,507
Posts

 
Drives: ????????????
Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: BMW M3 will get a V6TT

iTrader: (0)

Garage List
2008 E92 M3  [0.00]
Quote:
Originally Posted by southlight View Post
My understanding was that the PSC+ also has a new tire compound that differs from the PSC's.

http://www.reifenpresse.de/CDML007/e...97&RecID=14471



Best regards, south
You are right south, they are different. Unlike the old CUPs which carried a disclaimer on both temperature and wet conditions I don't believe the new CUP+ carry the same concerns.

Though I drove an M3 equipped with CUP+ on a wet October in N.Ireland and I wouldn't have any faith in Mr Joe Average not having a 'soiled pant' induced moment or two in the 5~6 months of winter weather that we get. That's why I Went for the 18" with PS2 instead.
Appreciate 0
      02-12-2009, 12:33 PM   #410
T Bone
Brigadier General
T Bone's Avatar
144
Rep
4,021
Posts

 
Drives: 2008 335xi Coupe
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: The land where we kill baby seals

iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by swamp2 View Post
  • Dirtied undergarments
  • Etc.
  • Viola: 7:29

HAHA
__________________
"Aerodynamics are for people who cannot build engines"......Enzo Ferrari
Appreciate 0
      02-12-2009, 12:43 PM   #411
bruce.augenstein@comcast.
Lieutenant Colonel
21
Rep
1,908
Posts

 
Drives: Legacy GT - 13.704@99.39
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: Manheim, PA

iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by southlight View Post
My understanding was that the PSC+ also has a new tire compound that differs from the PSC's.

Best regards, south
Yes, the inside rubber is slightly less aggressive, as mentioned. Not of particular importance in the dry.

Long ago, I mentioned that I thought the M3 could get down to an 8:02 or thereabouts with PS2s and a cockpit asassin aboard. Close, but no cigar on the seven minute rarified air.

I wouldn't mind if I were proven wrong, however.

Bruce
Appreciate 0
      02-12-2009, 01:06 PM   #412
Garissimo
Captain
Garissimo's Avatar
7
Rep
645
Posts

 
Drives: 4 doors, 6 gears, 8 cylinders
Join Date: Apr 2006
Location: Hippie Town, USA

iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by footie View Post
Do you really believe that everyone will match either the ACR or ZR1 lap times?
Match? No. Approach? Yes.

So far no-one outside of Nissan has come close to a 7:29 lap in a stock GT-R.
__________________
2013 Audi S6, Ibis White
2008 E90 M3, Jerez Black, Black Nappa, Brushed Aluminium, 6-speed, Premium, Tech, Cold Weather *sold*
Appreciate 0
      02-12-2009, 01:11 PM   #413
footie
Major General
footie's Avatar
No_Country
155
Rep
7,507
Posts

 
Drives: ????????????
Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: BMW M3 will get a V6TT

iTrader: (0)

Garage List
2008 E92 M3  [0.00]
Has someone got close to either the ACR's or ZR1's times?

If so please post a link because I am unfamiliar with it.
Appreciate 0
      02-12-2009, 03:31 PM   #414
Garissimo
Captain
Garissimo's Avatar
7
Rep
645
Posts

 
Drives: 4 doors, 6 gears, 8 cylinders
Join Date: Apr 2006
Location: Hippie Town, USA

iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by footie View Post
Has someone got close to either the ACR's or ZR1's times?

If so please post a link because I am unfamiliar with it.
You might want to take a gander at how the ACR's record time was achieved. The laps preceding it were all close.

ACR's Hot Ring Lap
__________________
2013 Audi S6, Ibis White
2008 E90 M3, Jerez Black, Black Nappa, Brushed Aluminium, 6-speed, Premium, Tech, Cold Weather *sold*
Appreciate 0
      02-12-2009, 06:40 PM   #415
swamp2
Lieutenant General
swamp2's Avatar
United_States
214
Rep
10,201
Posts

 
Drives: E92 M3
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: San Diego, CA USA

iTrader: (1)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Robin Hood View Post
Which theoretically means a (ex)F1 driver or Marc Basseng(D) or Tom Coronel(NL) or Michael Vergers(NL) or Stefan Roser(D) or whoever is a pro driver at the Ring could do a lap in a stock E9xM3 6MT in about 7:54 LOL. That's what I am interested in.
EXCELLENT, back on topic with the main topic of this entire message board. I commend you for that. Thanks!

I too would like to know where the M3 would end up with a similar effort that Nissan put into the 7:29 time. Well under rating by 100 hp would certainly get its time solidly into the 7:XX range, that's for sure . Even being honest with the power a Nissan style assault with the PSC+, M-DCT, factory track brake pads and ace driver would be plenty enough as well to get into the 7:XX range.

We are still waiting patiently for the M-DCT supertest. Hopefully they will have 31.2 software or newer .
Appreciate 0
      02-12-2009, 07:38 PM   #416
footie
Major General
footie's Avatar
No_Country
155
Rep
7,507
Posts

 
Drives: ????????????
Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: BMW M3 will get a V6TT

iTrader: (0)

Garage List
2008 E92 M3  [0.00]
If the RS4 could do a 7:58 lap then it's a cert that the M3 should be able to better that time by 2 or 3 seconds. I actually surprised that more companies don't post videos of the best laps to just show what is truly capable.Though unlike swamp I am not so sure DCT will make that much of a difference.

P.S.

Why is it that SportAuto can get their hands on a yet to be launch DCT 335i to test but can't seem to find an M3 with M-DCT? I think BMW are to blame for this and not SportAuto, I wish someone could enlighted us as to why this is.
Appreciate 0
      02-13-2009, 03:27 AM   #417
swamp2
Lieutenant General
swamp2's Avatar
United_States
214
Rep
10,201
Posts

 
Drives: E92 M3
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: San Diego, CA USA

iTrader: (1)

Quote:
Originally Posted by footie View Post
]Why is it that SportAuto can get their hands on a yet to be launch DCT 335i to test but can't seem to find an M3 with M-DCT? I think BMW are to blame for this and not SportAuto, I wish someone could enlighted us as to why this is.
But they did not do the supertest with 'Ring time yet for the 335i DCT did they? We've beat the horse pretty well dead on the lack of a M-DCT 'Ring time as well. There very well may have been a BMW suggested/requested/mandated delay but for some time the weather and track conditions have been the reason to not test. I'm sure in spring there will be a test and release of the number.
Appreciate 0
Post Reply

Bookmarks

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 12:59 AM.




m3post
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.7.0
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
1Addicts.com, BIMMERPOST.com, E90Post.com, F30Post.com, M3Post.com, ZPost.com, 5Post.com, 6Post.com, 7Post.com, XBimmers.com logo and trademark are properties of BIMMERPOST