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      09-30-2008, 01:12 PM   #1
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Porsche accuses Nissan GT-R of cheating the "Ring":

I'm not sure if this belongs here, but i've seen several GTR threads. Enjoy

Quote:
Originally Posted by Autoblog
Sour grapes or legitimate complaint? That's the question we're left pondering after reading that Porsche believes Nissan must have cheated to record its 7:29:03 lap time of the famed Nürburgring race circuit. Porsche claims that it had been suspicious of the Nissan's lap times, so it acquired a U.S.-spec GT-R for testing back-to-back with its own 911 Turbo and GT2. The result? The mighty Godzilla was toppled by the Teutonic German duo, with the GT-R posting times a good 25-seconds slower than Nissan's claim.

How can Porsche explain the discrepancy? "This wonder car with 7:29 could not have been a regular series production car. For us, it's not clear how this time is possible. What we can imagine with this Nissan is they used other tires," says August Achleitner, the man in charge of the 911 program. There is footage of the GT-R lapping the 'Ring at high speed, but it's taken from inside the car where the tires cannot be seen.

Considering the fact that Nissan saw fit to issue a press release commemorating the car's fast-lap, we doubt this is something that will be taken lightly. There's a big can 'o worms here, and Porsche's in the corner holding the opener.
http://www.autoblog.com/2008/09/30/p...ting-the-ring/
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      09-30-2008, 01:22 PM   #2
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Is there a Sportauto time for the GTR?
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      09-30-2008, 01:25 PM   #3
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lucid View Post
Is there a Sportauto time for the GTR?
Not yet. Sportauto drove a preproduction GTR some months ago (~7.50 with two wet sections), though.


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      09-30-2008, 01:40 PM   #4
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Porsche ought to be very careful. They are getting into the area of libel/slander. If Nissan can show pictures or video of the car before its run along with affadavits from people who were there, and it all shows the lap was on the up and up, they might be able to put together a lawsuit.
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      09-30-2008, 01:46 PM   #5
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jaiman View Post
Porsche ought to be very careful. They are getting into the area of libel/slander. If Nissan can show pictures or video of the car before its run along with affadavits from people who were there, and it all shows the lap was on the up and up, they might be able to put together a lawsuit.


are you kidding me? not even close to libel/slander.

p.s. are you a lawyer?
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      09-30-2008, 01:48 PM   #6
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jaiman View Post
Porsche ought to be very careful. They are getting into the area of libel/slander. If Nissan can show pictures or video of the car before its run along with affadavits from people who were there, and it all shows the lap was on the up and up, they might be able to put together a lawsuit.
Don't you think the people at Porsche are aware of that either? Porsche has to be quite sure what they're talking about and I don't have any doubt they are.



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      09-30-2008, 01:52 PM   #7
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nlpamg View Post


are you kidding me? not even close to libel/slander.

p.s. are you a lawyer?
Are you a lawyer?

In my opinion unfair competition comes to mind...


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      09-30-2008, 02:00 PM   #8
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We need a 3rd party to verify this.
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      09-30-2008, 02:04 PM   #9
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Quote:
Originally Posted by southlight View Post
Are you a lawyer?

In my opinion unfair competition comes to mind...


Best regards, south
Yes, I am.

Definitely unfair competition if Porsche's claims are true.

That would be great. I should get a GT-R now, so that I can be part of the class...
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      09-30-2008, 02:08 PM   #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nlpamg View Post


are you kidding me? not even close to libel/slander.

p.s. are you a lawyer?
Definition of defamation from Wikipedia:

"In law, defamation (also called calumny, libel, slander, and vilification) is the communication of a statement that makes a false claim, expressly stated or implied to be factual, that may give an individual, business, product, group, government or nation a negative image. Slander refers to a malicious, false, and defamatory statement or report, while libel refers to any other form of communication such as written words or images. "

But I'm definitely not a lawyer.
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      09-30-2008, 02:13 PM   #11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jaiman View Post
Definition of defamation from Wikipedia:

"In law, defamation (also called calumny, libel, slander, and vilification) is the communication of a statement that makes a false claim, expressly stated or implied to be factual, that may give an individual, business, product, group, government or nation a negative image. Slander refers to a malicious, false, and defamatory statement or report, while libel refers to any other form of communication such as written words or images. "

But I'm definitely not a lawyer.
Wikipedia definitions don't cut it. And, you forgot to quote the defenses to defamation in Wikipedia.

Do you think Microsoft is suing Apple for all those "I'm Windows" ads?

If Porsche legitimately tested a US Spec car and even if Nissan was there and did the real 7:29 lap, there would be absolutely no case.

A defamation case would get laughed out of court.

No offense dude, but people shouldn't be crying lawsuit or crying out "you lie, I'll sue you". That's why I called you out on it.

Unfair competition however, would be pretty easy if Porsche's claims were indeed true.
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      09-30-2008, 02:20 PM   #12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nlpamg View Post
Wikipedia definitions don't cut it. And, you forgot to quote the defenses to defamation in Wikipedia.

Do you think Microsoft is suing Apple for all those "I'm Windows" ads?

If Porsche legitimately tested a US Spec car and even if Nissan was there and did the real 7:29 lap, there would be absolutely no case.

A defamation case would get laughed out of court.

No offense dude, but people shouldn't be crying lawsuit or crying out "you lie, I'll sue you". That's why I called you out on it.

Unfair competition however, would be pretty easy if Porsche's claims were indeed true.
Explain to me what the unfair competion part is about?
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      09-30-2008, 02:21 PM   #13
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porsche always complains lol

japanese drivers know how to drive, that's all
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      09-30-2008, 03:03 PM   #14
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ///Mantis View Post
porsche always complains lol

japanese drivers know how to drive, that's all
+1

You are probably right.

Best Regards, Maika
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      09-30-2008, 04:27 PM   #15
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nlpamg View Post
Wikipedia definitions don't cut it. And, you forgot to quote the defenses to defamation in Wikipedia.

Do you think Microsoft is suing Apple for all those "I'm Windows" ads?

If Porsche legitimately tested a US Spec car and even if Nissan was there and did the real 7:29 lap, there would be absolutely no case.

A defamation case would get laughed out of court.

No offense dude, but people shouldn't be crying lawsuit or crying out "you lie, I'll sue you". That's why I called you out on it.

Unfair competition however, would be pretty easy if Porsche's claims were indeed true.
+1

Even if it had a case (and I agree that there doesn't seem to be one here), no way would Nissan risk filing a lawsuit due to the confidential information that would become amenable to discovery.
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      09-30-2008, 04:27 PM   #16
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Sour grapes definitely comes to mind. For a competitor to come out with a statement like 'we tested them both and our car was quicker' is the sort of thing every manufacturer says when they develop a new car and compare it to it's rivals.

There is enough evidence to state that the GTR is indeed quicker than the 997 Turbo at least. OK it is a lot heavier and isn't quite as quick in acceleration but it definitely corners quicker than a 997 Turbo and there is one hack of an amount of corners to cover on one lap of the ring.

Now by no means is this an equivalent comparison to a lap of the ring but the recent group test by Autocar in the Isle of Man is probably closer than almost every other comparison test held on a proper race track. Enough chat, here's the video of that day's testing.

http://www.autocar.co.uk/VideosWallp...AR=235168&CT=V

P.S.

I personally believe the new Gallardo will be quicker than the 997 Turbo and quite possibly quicker than the GT2 as well.
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      10-01-2008, 12:30 AM   #17
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Boy is it fun to read this after all the pages and pages of debate on this topic in months past. You can't beat physics. There is no way a random production GT-R that meets published specs even with a hot shoe driver is going to get 7:29.
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      10-01-2008, 01:05 AM   #18
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arent there alot of users/car magazine editor proved that 997TT and GTR are close competitor ? and some shows GTR beat 997TT in one way or the other.
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      10-01-2008, 01:08 AM   #19
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ShadeM3 View Post
arent there alot of users/car magazine editor proved that 997TT and GTR are close competitor ? and some shows GTR beat 997TT in one way or the other.
Yup, but then the question becomes who supplied the GTR and was it a "ringer" like many have stated putting out way more power than it was rated for and unlike the spec one that you and I can buy.
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      10-01-2008, 01:16 AM   #20
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This is old news. It isn't just Porsche making these claims.

It is widely known that both Nissan and GM are not exactly telling the whole truth about their laps, with the GT-R and ZR-1.
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      10-01-2008, 08:45 AM   #21
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As much as don't believe the original 7:29 time that the GTR did, i find it even harder to believe that it'll only do 7:54, that's just as suspicious and ridiculous IMO. The CTS-V that is heavier and RWD did 7:55 and the e92M3 did 8:05. Around 7:40 is probably the more realistic figure for the GTR even if it does have over 500hp which is more than likely that it does.
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      10-01-2008, 09:51 AM   #22
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jaeS4 View Post
As much as don't believe the original 7:29 time that the GTR did, i find it even harder to believe that it'll only do 7:54, that's just as suspicious and ridiculous IMO. The CTS-V that is heavier and RWD did 7:55 and the e92M3 did 8:05. Around 7:40 is probably the more realistic figure for the GTR even if it does have over 500hp which is more than likely that it does.

OK, let me answer that debate quite easily. Which car would you expect a Porsche chassis engineer/tester to be quickest in?

The person knows the capabilities of the Porsche car inside out, were as the Nissan is an unknown quantity so to speak. I bet if he/she was at the development stage of the GTR and seen it through to production the likelihood would be that this person would be quicker in the GTR instead of the Porsche.

As for their time of 7:54, well that is absurd, the sheer mathematics of this would have the GTR quicker when it's trick awd system is taken into account. Every other roadtest which has compared all of these cars has shown the Nissan to be quicker, maybe only slightly so with the GT2 but with the Turbo the gap is enough to place it into a league above.

This one is for swamp,

I was down at the local Nissan dealer talking about the availability of the GTR and generally showing a bit of interest to see what I could learn. I asked the question about output and how it seem to be defying the laws of physics with it's incredible acceleration compared to other cars like the 997 Turbo (which they all use as a reference) and his reply was that the figures were indeed above the 500hp mark. The reason given was to make sure that regardless of the temperature and altitude the car would always guarantee it's quoted figure.

This sounds very reasonable to me as an explanation and with what I know of turbo engines and how temperature and air density affect their performance I am in agreement with this.
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