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      08-22-2008, 06:33 AM   #1
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Sportauto Nurnburgring laptime: Lexus IS-F

Lexus IS-F Nordschleife laptime : 8.18 min

0-100km/h: 4.9 sec
0-160km/h: 10,5 sec
0-200km/h: 16,2 sec
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      08-22-2008, 07:26 AM   #2
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sorry
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      08-22-2008, 07:51 AM   #3
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BTG time for E92 M3 at NS: 8:05(Horst von Saurma sportauto journalist, 19"Pilot Sport II)

Sep 14th we're heading for another day at the Nordschleife with my new E90 M3 saloon!!!!
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      08-22-2008, 08:27 AM   #4
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Where is the M3 M-DCT times we were promised?

It's very funny that all this time has passed and no testing from SportAuto on the new gearbox? There surely has to be a reason.
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      08-22-2008, 10:04 AM   #5
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Originally Posted by footie View Post
Where is the M3 M-DCT times we were promised?

It's very funny that all this time has passed and no testing from SportAuto on the new gearbox? There surely has to be a reason.
There are no C63 AMG supertest either. Whats the reason for that?
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      08-22-2008, 11:28 AM   #6
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Its so we have something to complain about on the boards
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      08-22-2008, 11:35 AM   #7
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Quote:
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Where is the M3 M-DCT times we were promised?

It's very funny that all this time has passed and no testing from SportAuto on the new gearbox? There surely has to be a reason.
it's not worthy of their time.

@ original topic: im sorry to hear that. that sucks
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      08-22-2008, 04:45 PM   #8
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Sounds about right to me, more torque than the M3, about the same power, good 8 speed tranny, never performs as well in handling metrics as the M3. Overall a pretty nice performance for the car.
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      08-22-2008, 05:51 PM   #9
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Not bad!!!
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      08-22-2008, 05:53 PM   #10
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Not bad!!!
actually pretty bad bro
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      08-22-2008, 08:49 PM   #11
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pathetic
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      08-22-2008, 11:23 PM   #12
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pathetic in what regards? what other Lexus model has been run around the 'Ring seriously in competition to ANYTHING serious?


not bad for a first-time 4dr auto Lexus sport sedan.
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      08-23-2008, 12:12 AM   #13
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It's 5 seconds slower than the E60 M5. The IS-F is a little more "safe" in the handling department and doesn't quite have as good traction due to no true limited slip diff. I wouldn't say it's so slow.

BTW, the M3's 8:05 isn't a fully stock M3. It had optional race brake pads on the front axles and were running CUP tires and not PS2s. Maybe that's why the new tranny hasn't been reported (but probably tested) - as equipped with PS2s and standard pads, they're probably running SLOWER than 8:05 (my speculation).

Got my flamesuit on...
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      08-23-2008, 01:11 AM   #14
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pathetic in what regards? what other Lexus model has been run around the 'Ring seriously in competition to ANYTHING serious?

not bad for a first-time 4dr auto Lexus sport sedan.
I am sick of hearing this "first time" BS.

Its Toyota, they have experience in building sports cars.
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      08-23-2008, 05:57 AM   #15
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I am sick of hearing this "first time" BS.

Its Toyota, they have experience in building sports cars.
I think it is very fair to say that.

Building a medium production volume car that has to make profit and be competitive in the market is vastly different than building any sort of race car. Sure Toyota can build a car much like the IS-F that will smoke the M3 around the ring but can they do it with the level of comfort, safety and amenities that are in the current car? Clearly they can not. Most cars and most big engineering and design challenges are a series of carefully executed COMPROMISES, the M3 and IS-F are no different. The maturity of a process in dealing with a particular set of comprimises is indeed a process itself that takes a lot of time. Even understanding all of the compromises takes time and then to deliver success across a very broad range of criteria takes even more. Heck, even putting your team together and overcoming organizational challenges such as mangement structure, politics, team culture, etc. take significant time.
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      08-23-2008, 07:02 AM   #16
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+1 Swamp,

The difficulty isn't in building a car to beat the M3 on the ring but to beat it while providing the same levels of comfort, quality in controls and entertainment. This is one of the reasons why the M3 has sustained such a long and fruitful life and sells over the years, it has had many a competitor along the way but none to date have completely match it in all of these disciplines.
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      08-23-2008, 08:35 AM   #17
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Quote:
Originally Posted by swamp2 View Post
I think it is very fair to say that.

Building a medium production volume car that has to make profit and be competitive in the market is vastly different than building any sort of race car. Sure Toyota can build a car much like the IS-F that will smoke the M3 around the ring but can they do it with the level of comfort, safety and amenities that are in the current car? Clearly they can not. Most cars and most big engineering and design challenges are a series of carefully executed COMPROMISES, the M3 and IS-F are no different. The maturity of a process in dealing with a particular set of comprimises is indeed a process itself that takes a lot of time. Even understanding all of the compromises takes time and then to deliver success across a very broad range of criteria takes even more. Heck, even putting your team together and overcoming organizational challenges such as mangement structure, politics, team culture, etc. take significant time.
Pretty much agree everywhere, but I'd like to add that an overriding "compromise", is that the car must feel and drive like a Lexus. They didn't build this car necessarily as an M3 fighter, but as a response to a burgeoning performance marketplace which saw them beginning to lose a few of the faithful to those crazy Germans, and others. Even then, in a story much like many others in the automobile business, the IS-F began as a project by a splinter group within the company, looking to address both the so-far minor problem of lost sales and an actual potential market opportunity.

But, a major and obvious goal of such a project would be that the car would need to appeal to the faithful first of all, and then you would be considering a potential attack for market share against other vendors.

Appealing to the faithful means it must drive like a Lexus, so all those factors that the engineering types have reduced to specific numbers must be present - meaning obvious things such as steering feel, brake feel, turn-in, relationship between shock valving and spring rates, and literally dozens of other items must all be present. It's OK that the car feel as if it's the sharpest feeling Lexus ever built, but it's not as if the Lexus faithful are BMW wannabees. They actually expect and like handling characteristics that would be largely unappealing to the BMW faithful, and just laughed at by Lotus guys. So, first rule: Don't forget what got you here, and don't alienate the faithful.

I'm reminded of a time when I mistakenly thought I had matured, automotively speaking, and bought a new '82 Buick mumble-whatever very large V8 four-door sedan. It didn't take me long to realize that I had had a major judgement lapse (although the car was great for family trips), so I took The Big Hit on trade-in for something else.

Flash forward a bit, and the car rental guys at Boston airport take pity on the bedraggled way-late traveller, and give him the keys to another large four-door Buick (instead of the bottom-feeder my company normally authorized) to take home. It isn't long before I realize that this front wheel drive, transverse V6 drives exactly like my '82 did. Same sloppy turn-in. Same all-ahead-two-thirds-right-full-rudder feel at the helm, same way-flaccid shocks over bumps. In fact, same everything.

I think, "Boy what a wasted opportunity", but upon reflection it occurs to me that it would be a minor miracle if such massively different cars could drive exactly alike - assuming it was just a coincidence, of course.

Then it hit me; They meant to do this! Buick buyers expect certain characteristics in their cars, so, first rule of marketing - don't piss off the faithful.

So Swamp, with everything you've said, plus the above background, it's a wonder the IS-F can compete as well as it does in the M venue. Gotta say hat's off to the Toyota guys.

Bruce
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      08-23-2008, 10:26 AM   #18
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Quote:
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actually pretty bad bro
Bro....I dont like IS-F at all.....Inside out....but....I do respect Lexus first time effort in making a sports sedan....from that point of view....IS-F's time aint so bad....
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      08-23-2008, 11:03 AM   #19
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I think that's a good benchmark. Lexus owners aren't gonna give a crap about how fast the ISF goes around a track anyways. I know I don't. I think the M3 is an amazing machine. But I couldn't justify the extra $$$ just for an LSD and EDC and about 13 seconds round a track. I totally respect people wanting that in a performance car however. Lexus did a great job I think.
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      08-23-2008, 11:15 AM   #20
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+1 Swamp,

The difficulty isn't in building a car to beat the M3 on the ring but to beat it while providing the same levels of comfort, quality in controls and entertainment. This is one of the reasons why the M3 has sustained such a long and fruitful life and sells over the years, it has had many a competitor along the way but none to date have completely match it in all of these disciplines.
The car is really two different beasts. I had no idea until driving around the last 150 miles. Seats are great, the leather is soft, shifts are super smooth. In comfort the suspension doesn't kill you on bad roads, engine noise is low when just taking it, easy. Then push a buton, setup aggresive modes, go past 4000-5000 rpms total different car. Coming from the 335, the handling feels incredible. The amount of driver feedback is great. Ring times are great, but yeah hard to get best of both worlds. Just find some z06 owners......
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      08-23-2008, 04:52 PM   #21
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bruce.augenstein@comcast. View Post
Pretty much agree everywhere, but I'd like to add that an overriding "compromise", is that the car must feel and drive like a Lexus.
....
Great point, agree fully, there is as much "character preservation" as there is compromise.
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      08-23-2008, 05:49 PM   #22
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Bruce,

I suppose I wasn't looking at it from that view point, if the IS-F retains the very nature of the Lexus while still providing this time then they have achieved the goal they set out to do. Everyone knows that BMWs feel sportier than a normal Lexus, the same is true for Mercedes and Audi, that is the very nature of the beast. Each brand has to stay true to their principles, that is why Audi keep Quattro, Mercedes use big torquey engines, Lexus comfort their drivers and BMW make them feel sporty.

In a way BMW have the easiest task, as they have the least amount of compromising to do to achieve their performance goals.
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