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View Poll Results: Auto only, what's your pick? M3 or C63?
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      09-24-2008, 12:54 PM   #45
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MontegoblueE92 View Post
I think you're mixing up being interested in cars with being an enthusiast. To be an enthusiast, you have to care about driving dynamics. From most of your posts, it seems like that's something that really doesn't matter to you. That's the reason most of these people are here and drive BMWs, we all share a love for good driving dynamics. Calling a dual-clutch transmission an automatic is only downplaying your intelligence and car "enthusiasm."
IMHO there are different types of automotive enthusiasts, there are some that don't car as much about the driving dynamics but care more about the "show" car aspect. For example at this weeks BMW CCA Octoberfest there's a whole section devoted to folks who clean their cars with Q-tips and get graded on cleanliness and better than showroom show qualities. I'd say these folks are also enthusiasts, but most of them could also quote stats about the cars they own, even if they never explore the limits of their cars.

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Originally Posted by PowerLex View Post
...and gains all sorts of fun little gizmos they write about in the manual but no one ever knows what/where they are.
What??

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Originally Posted by PowerLex View Post
So in conclusion, there is no more connection to the car with the driver than any other auto on the market. So basically it's an automatic with a fancy name.
I guessing you haven't driven a DCT car. There isn't as much involvement as manual tranny but you can definitely tell by driving it, that it's not an automatic. As you can feel the clutch engage and disengage, and you can drive the car more like a manual car than an automatic like your IS-F.
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      09-24-2008, 01:25 PM   #46
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So in conclusion, there is no more connection to the car with the driver than any other auto on the market. So basically it's an automatic with a fancy name.
[sarcasm]
Um... hello? Shift lights on the Tach! DUH!
[/sarcasm]

But in all seriousness. The ability to change how it shifts alone (via the different modes) is a step beyond a normal automatic. It adds another lever to the interface, in being able to depict how fast it will shift and where the shift points in the fully automated modes are in the rev range.

The answer to all of this is that if you are just a dumb buyer with money spilling out your pockets. And you want a car you can sit in, start, put into D and drive. Then it will suffice as an automatic for your purposes. But if you want more, it delivers there as well. Where a typical automatic doesn't. This alone is the distinction. And following this line of thought I wouldn't say it is out of line if even the C63's performance automatic, as well as the IS-F's transmission went by new names as well. Because they are performance automatics, not slushboxes. I understand why they chose not to create a new name in their marketing campaign. They want to attract poeple that can't or don't wish to make the distinction between the two. They are marketing their cars with the phrase automatic because it is familiar to their typical clientel. This is Lexus' only high performance car in their model line-up right now, and while MB has a few with their AMG and BRABUS badges I think it's safe to say that the majority of their sales are in the pure luxury category. BMW as a brand has always been more of a sports car than either the 2 aforementioned brands.

And to take my last argument a step further in incorporating Audi/VW into the mix. Audi is the middle child between MB and BMW on the luxury/sport scale. And their performance transmission has donned a shiny new name as well, DSG.
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      09-24-2008, 02:32 PM   #47
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Originally Posted by skierman64 View Post
IMHO there are different types of automotive enthusiasts, there are some that don't car as much about the driving dynamics but care more about the "show" car aspect. For example at this weeks BMW CCA Octoberfest there's a whole section devoted to folks who clean their cars with Q-tips and get graded on cleanliness and better than showroom show qualities. I'd say these folks are also enthusiasts, but most of them could also quote stats about the cars they own, even if they never explore the limits of their cars.



What??



I guessing you haven't driven a DCT car. There isn't as much involvement as manual tranny but you can definitely tell by driving it, that it's not an automatic. As you can feel the clutch engage and disengage, and you can drive the car more like a manual car than an automatic like your IS-F.

I still don't see how you paddle shifting in your MDCT is more "like a manual" than me paddle shifting in my ISF, besides the obvious mechanical reasons you guys have made clear. From a driver's standpoint though, you haven't conviced me one bit by saying you can feel the clutch engage/disengage.

Lex
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      09-24-2008, 02:37 PM   #48
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Originally Posted by UltimateBMW View Post
[sarcasm]
Um... hello? Shift lights on the Tach! DUH!
[/sarcasm]

But in all seriousness. The ability to change how it shifts alone (via the different modes) is a step beyond a normal automatic. It adds another lever to the interface, in being able to depict how fast it will shift and where the shift points in the fully automated modes are in the rev range.

The answer to all of this is that if you are just a dumb buyer with money spilling out your pockets. And you want a car you can sit in, start, put into D and drive. Then it will suffice as an automatic for your purposes. But if you want more, it delivers there as well. Where a typical automatic doesn't. This alone is the distinction. And following this line of thought I wouldn't say it is out of line if even the C63's performance automatic, as well as the IS-F's transmission went by new names as well. Because they are performance automatics, not slushboxes. I understand why they chose not to create a new name in their marketing campaign. They want to attract poeple that can't or don't wish to make the distinction between the two. They are marketing their cars with the phrase automatic because it is familiar to their typical clientel. This is Lexus' only high performance car in their model line-up right now, and while MB has a few with their AMG and BRABUS badges I think it's safe to say that the majority of their sales are in the pure luxury category. BMW as a brand has always been more of a sports car than either the 2 aforementioned brands.

And to take my last argument a step further in incorporating Audi/VW into the mix. Audi is the middle child between MB and BMW on the luxury/sport scale. And their performance transmission has donned a shiny new name as well, DSG.
I think the point you make about the shift speeds/modes I can completely agree with. That does differentiate the DCT from any other automatic out there. I guess I would really like to drive one to see how they feel and if they really do feel more connected. Anybody in Chicago feel like goin for a cruise????
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      09-24-2008, 07:57 PM   #49
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Going back to my earlier post. Answer this question...if you have an automatic Steptronic shifter with the ability to shift gears manually, would you call it a manual transmission?
No.

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Originally Posted by ///Metak View Post
See how faulty your logic is?
No.

Furthermore, you seem to be in a dead heat with a Slurpee in terms of logic.

You're in effect saying that every single automatic built since the dawn of time is - not an automatic?

Well done.

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      09-24-2008, 08:20 PM   #50
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PowerLex View Post
I still don't see how you paddle shifting in your MDCT is more "like a manual" than me paddle shifting in my ISF, besides the obvious mechanical reasons you guys have made clear. From a driver's standpoint though, you haven't conviced me one bit by saying you can feel the clutch engage/disengage.

Lex
I don't need to convince you of anything as obviously you've already made your choice and voted with your wallet, which is great. Would I be correct in assuming that you're experience with manual transmission cars is limited? And have you ever been a student at a high performance drivers school?

The DCT feels like a manual when driving it, perhaps not as much as the old SMG, but to me if feels like a manual with a missing clutch pedal. I haven't driven the IS-F so I can't compare it to that.

The best way I can sum it up is like this. I've seen a few Jeeps out on the highways with bumper stickers that say "It's a Jeep thing, you wouldn't understand" well I'll put a spin on that and say, "It's a DCT thing, you wouldn't understand". I don't know how to explain it any better than I and others have in previous posts. You just have to drive it.
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      09-24-2008, 08:40 PM   #51
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bruce.augenstein@comcast. View Post
Furthermore, you seem to be in a dead heat with a Slurpee in terms of logic.
Can't we have a debate/discussion without personal attacks?

Let's keep to the subject matter please. There's no reason for this kind of stuff.
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      09-24-2008, 11:04 PM   #52
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Quote:
Originally Posted by skierman64 View Post
I don't need to convince you of anything as obviously you've already made your choice and voted with your wallet, which is great. Would I be correct in assuming that you're experience with manual transmission cars is limited? And have you ever been a student at a high performance drivers school?

The DCT feels like a manual when driving it, perhaps not as much as the old SMG, but to me if feels like a manual with a missing clutch pedal. I haven't driven the IS-F so I can't compare it to that.

The best way I can sum it up is like this. I've seen a few Jeeps out on the highways with bumper stickers that say "It's a Jeep thing, you wouldn't understand" well I'll put a spin on that and say, "It's a DCT thing, you wouldn't understand". I don't know how to explain it any better than I and others have in previous posts. You just have to drive it.
I guess that's fair enough to say it is a "DCT thing". Im not looking for a revelation here. I think the next thing to do is to just test drive a DCT M3 if I can get my hands on one and report back.

Thanks for your input
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      09-25-2008, 08:29 AM   #53
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I've driven the IS-F. It definately doesn't feel like a DCT. Its pretty much a straight up automatic. Although, it does shift very hard. I was cruising around town and when I hit the paddle shifter it was SLAMMING the gears in. It was alittle abrupt and out of place for the times when my pace was slower. At speed it was more appropriete though.

In all fairness, it could of been user error. I only drove the car in the manual mode and didn't leave it in D that much.
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      09-25-2008, 12:42 PM   #54
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I can see why Bruce would consider the DSG's or DCT's automatic. The fact that the clutch is engaged automatically and not manually by the driver, makes it somewhat an automatic. As far as i know, the SMG's and DCT's can be put on complete auto, again making it somewhat automatic like.


http://auto.howstuffworks.com/dual-c...ansmission.htm

Quote:
A dual-clutch gearbox, by contrast, uses two clutches, but has no clutch pedal. Sophisticated electronics and hydraulics control the clutches, just as they do in a standard automatic transmission.
Quote:
Drivers can also choose a fully automatic mode that relinquishes all gear-changing duties to the computer. In this mode, the driving experience is very similar to that delivered by a conventional automatic. Because a DCT transmission can "phase out" one gear and "phase in" a second gear, shift shock is reduced. More importantly, the gear change takes place under load so that a permanent flow of power is maintained.
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      09-25-2008, 01:31 PM   #55
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Do you guys call all soda coke? I know some poeple that do, even when they are drinking Pepsi.

I mean, technically they are the same. You drink both, they look the same, and taste similar. Both come in bottles... so the different ingredients can't matter that much, right?
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      09-25-2008, 02:49 PM   #56
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bruce.augenstein@comcast. View Post
Furthermore, you seem to be in a dead heat with a Slurpee in terms of logic.

You're in effect saying that every single automatic built since the dawn of time is - not an automatic?

Well done.

Bruce
(a Bruce Quote "the M-DCT is an automatic, by virtue of having two pedals and no-shift driving.") Is that the best you can do?

I knew when you were finally cornered, in how flawed your arguement is, that you would start lashing out with insults. Predictable and laughable. Your whole premise is, that if you have the option to put your SMG/DCT into an auto mode, therefore that makes it an automatic. So I used YOUR logic, that if you have an automatic(Tiptroronic/Steptronic) that gives you a MANUAL mode option that allows you to determine when the transmission will make it's gearshift via paddle shifters, that it therefore could be referred to as a manual.

The main difference between SMG/DCT and automatic transmissions is the primary function it was designed for.
1. The SMG is trickle down technology used in F1 racing. The purpose of automating the clutch action is to increase the speed in which gearshifts are made. The SMG II in my E46 was the exact same transmission found in the 6MT with the addition of hydraulics/electronics to automate the engaging/disengaing of the clutch. It is first and foremost a manual(with the auto option).
2. Steptronic-type automatics are the total opposite. They start out as automatics and additional hardware/software is added to allow the driver some control over the gear shifting, but it's primary purpose is to function as an automatic.

Your arguement is just like saying chocolate ice cream and strawberry ice cream are both ice cream therefore chocolate is the same as strawberry. Faulty logic. Manual and Automatic transmissions have definately taken a step towards each other but it doesn't make SMG=Steptronic. Just take my original advice, go buy an AUTOMATIC Fit!
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..I think the Honda Fit and the Dodge Cummins diesel pickup are exceedingly cool vehicles that I'd really like to own .... I'm impressed by the M3, but would rather actually own a Fit, .....

Bruce
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      09-25-2008, 11:41 PM   #57
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...Your whole premise is, that if you have the option to put your SMG/DCT into an auto mode, therefore that makes it an automatic...
Wrong.

My whole premise is that, as with every other automatic since the dawn of time, M-DCT has two pedals instead of three, will take you from zero to flat out with no driver interaction while it changes gears on its own, and you can shift it if you want to.

As I've mentioned several times in these threads, you can call the M-DCT whatever you like to preserve your sensibilities, manhood or whatever, but don't play M-DCT cop. For me (and of course others), it's an automatic - a potentially terrific one to be sure, but still an automatic.

Always a pleasure. I'm here all week.

Bruce

Edit: PS - Oh, and by the way, chocolate and strawberry are both ice cream. The taste will be different while consuming them, but that doesn't change the fact that they're both ice cream. I'm perfectly willing to believe that the M-DCT is an overall better experience for the driver (at least when it's working correctly) compared to a more traditional auto, but it's still an auto.
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      09-25-2008, 11:43 PM   #58
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Originally Posted by UltimateBMW View Post
I've driven the IS-F. It definately doesn't feel like a DCT. Its pretty much a straight up automatic. Although, it does shift very hard. I was cruising around town and when I hit the paddle shifter it was SLAMMING the gears in. It was alittle abrupt and out of place for the times when my pace was slower. At speed it was more appropriete though.

In all fairness, it could of been user error. I only drove the car in the manual mode and didn't leave it in D that much.
You know it is really tough to judge a car based on a test drive nowadays. Especially cars built, IMO, so close to a perfect all around sports car as the ISF, M3, C63 and RS4 are today. It really takes time to learn how to drive, handle and just perfect every little aspect each car has to offer. To me, manual sport mode is the obvious best way to drive the ISF but definitely takes some practice to get used to the shifting, accellerating etc... It really takes some seat time to perfect the driving. It truly is an automatic, or a automated manual as some people like to call it, whatever that means. But nonetheless, another great competitor in this class that will hopefully keep improving over the years like the M3 has done for generations.
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      09-26-2008, 08:38 AM   #59
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Originally Posted by ///Metak View Post
(a Bruce Quote "the M-DCT is an automatic, by virtue of having two pedals and no-shift driving.") Is that the best you can do?

I knew when you were finally cornered, in how flawed your arguement is, that you would start lashing out with insults. Predictable and laughable. Your whole premise is, that if you have the option to put your SMG/DCT into an auto mode, therefore that makes it an automatic. So I used YOUR logic, that if you have an automatic(Tiptroronic/Steptronic) that gives you a MANUAL mode option that allows you to determine when the transmission will make it's gearshift via paddle shifters, that it therefore could be referred to as a manual.

The main difference between SMG/DCT and automatic transmissions is the primary function it was designed for.
1. The SMG is trickle down technology used in F1 racing. The purpose of automating the clutch action is to increase the speed in which gearshifts are made. The SMG II in my E46 was the exact same transmission found in the 6MT with the addition of hydraulics/electronics to automate the engaging/disengaing of the clutch. It is first and foremost a manual(with the auto option).
2. Steptronic-type automatics are the total opposite. They start out as automatics and additional hardware/software is added to allow the driver some control over the gear shifting, but it's primary purpose is to function as an automatic.

Your arguement is just like saying chocolate ice cream and strawberry ice cream are both ice cream therefore chocolate is the same as strawberry. Faulty logic. Manual and Automatic transmissions have definately taken a step towards each other but it doesn't make SMG=Steptronic. Just take my original advice, go buy an AUTOMATIC Fit!
If you really think about it, the only actual manual process that you do on a DCT, DSG, and SMG is pulling the + or - lever. Everything else on the DCT is engaged "automatically". It changes the gears automatically/electronically and engages the clutch automatically/electronically as well. Do you honestly think that makes it a manual transmission? Isn't it the same process that you do on a C63 or IS-F transmission when put on "manual mode" except for the part that they have a torque converter instead of course. Now, i'm not saying they're the same as the DCT transmission, not at all. It's kinda funny when someone tries to explain how it works, "It's actually a real manual transmission but it does everything for you automatically".
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      09-26-2008, 08:51 AM   #60
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You know it is really tough to judge a car based on a test drive nowadays. Especially cars built, IMO, so close to a perfect all around sports car as the ISF, M3, C63 and RS4 are today. It really takes time to learn how to drive, handle and just perfect every little aspect each car has to offer. To me, manual sport mode is the obvious best way to drive the ISF but definitely takes some practice to get used to the shifting, accellerating etc... It really takes some seat time to perfect the driving. It truly is an automatic, or a automated manual as some people like to call it, whatever that means. But nonetheless, another great competitor in this class that will hopefully keep improving over the years like the M3 has done for generations.
Your pretty much got it right on the mark. Basically, a test drive in any of the 4 cars you mentioned is more to just test is anything in the car is just totally incompatible with you. Whether it be seats, driving position, reach of controls, or just something in the car that annoys you. Doing a 5-10 minute test drive with a few days or a week between driving the different cars. Their performance is really to close to even be reasonably compared. So the only thing left is really just your own personal biases and what you remember as standing out among the rest to make you happy.
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      09-26-2008, 08:57 AM   #61
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If you really think about it, the only actual manual process that you do on a DCT, DSG, and SMG is pulling the + or - lever. Everything else on the DCT is engaged "automatically". It changes the gears automatically/electronically and engages the clutch automatically/electronically as well. Do you honestly think that makes it a manual transmission? Isn't it the same process that you do on a C63 or IS-F transmission when put on "manual mode" except for the part that they have a torque converter instead of course. Now, i'm not saying they're the same as the DCT transmission, not at all. It's kinda funny when someone tries to explain how it works, "It's actually a real manual transmission but it does everything for you automatically".
So if it's not a manual, and its not a automatic, then what do you call it?

answer: DCT

No one is saying that the paddle shifting is a manual transmission interface. But the way the throttle responds to the gear shifts DOES feel like a manual. You can notice that the car would even roll back on a hill when starting from naught if the anti-rollback feature wasn't there.

Honestly, the steptronic paddle-shifting automatics kind of ruined the game for the Dual clutch trannies because they blurred the line too much. Without them in the picture, the difference between an Automatic and a DCT/DSG is very easily discernable. Auto does it all for you, you don't even think about rpm or gears. DCT/DSG would allow you to specifically select the gear you needed and gives you control over the rpm.
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      09-26-2008, 09:19 AM   #62
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So if it's not a manual, and its not a automatic, then what do you call it?

answer: DCT

No one is saying that the paddle shifting is a manual transmission interface. But the way the throttle responds to the gear shifts DOES feel like a manual. You can notice that the car would even roll back on a hill when starting from naught if the anti-rollback feature wasn't there.

Honestly, the steptronic paddle-shifting automatics kind of ruined the game for the Dual clutch trannies because they blurred the line too much. Without them in the picture, the difference between an Automatic and a DCT/DSG is very easily discernable. Auto does it all for you, you don't even think about rpm or gears. DCT/DSG would allow you to specifically select the gear you needed and gives you control over the rpm.
Totally agree with you. We all pretty much know the differences technically between a real auto tranny and DCT, at this point i think it's a matter of perception of what anyone would consider a real manual transmission. I'm almost sure the tranny on the C63 and IS-F have rev-matching features that makes it more engaging than your usual automanual transmission. Again, i agree and know that it's not the same as the DCT. Bottomline is, a DCT is technically and mechanically a manual but every operation is done for you/driver automatically by the computer. Hence, it's an automatic, just kidding.
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      09-26-2008, 09:28 AM   #63
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Totally agree with you. We all pretty much know the differences technically between a real auto tranny and DCT, at this point i think it's a matter of perception of what anyone would consider a real manual transmission. I'm almost sure the tranny on the C63 and IS-F have rev-matching features that makes it more engaging than your usual automanual transmission. Again, i agree and know that it's not the same as the DCT. Bottomline is, a DCT is technically and mechanically a manual but every operation is done for you/driver automatically by the computer. Hence, it's an automatic, just kidding.
Well played.
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      10-18-2008, 02:51 PM   #64
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      10-28-2008, 03:34 AM   #65
MattDogg42
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C63. Made my decision easy cuz the M3 comes in stick.
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      10-28-2008, 03:28 PM   #66
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Damn, I thought this thread had died.
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