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      09-10-2008, 02:55 AM   #1
kennethcho1337
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Cool Whos up for a legal M3 vs C63 challenge?

http://www.mbworld.org/forums/showthread.php?t=259777

Would love to see some videos and photos if you guys decide to go.
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      09-10-2008, 11:28 AM   #2
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yawn.
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      09-10-2008, 02:15 PM   #3
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Yawn? That's all this section is about. Who's faster.
Here's the chance to do it legally.


Or do you guys prefer street racing?





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      09-11-2008, 03:53 PM   #4
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Originally Posted by Hans Delbruck View Post
Yawn? That's all this section is about. Who's faster.
Here's the chance to do it legally.


Or do you guys prefer street racing?






I'll meet you at a road course or autocross anytime. (yawn)
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      09-11-2008, 07:06 PM   #5
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Originally Posted by sayemthree View Post
I'll meet you at a road course or autocross anytime. (yawn)
Why?

They know the M3 is a better road course racer.

This challenge comes from another post, where some members claim the M3 DCT can keep up with or even beat the C63 in a straight line.

So people just want to know the answer.

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      09-12-2008, 05:26 PM   #6
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What's the point? M3 is not as fast in a straight line. We know that already, we also know that if you take a C63 on a road coarse and put an apple on the apex of any corner you will not hit it, you'll understeer around or over it.
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      09-13-2008, 02:34 AM   #7
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Originally Posted by chicagobimmerboy View Post
What's the point? M3 is not as fast in a straight line. We know that already, we also know that if you take a C63 on a road coarse and put an apple on the apex of any corner you will not hit it, you'll understeer around or over it.
Apparently on another thread, some members think the M3 DCT can hang with the C63 or even beat it. This is where it all started. We want to see a M3 DCT vs C63 straight line race. Everyone knows the M3 wins on a road course.
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      09-13-2008, 01:28 PM   #8
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This race should go down.
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      09-13-2008, 02:28 PM   #9
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Did the previous challenger with the C63 go to Atco last Thursday? If so, what time did he run? Atco is only 15 miles from my house but I was out of town last Thursday.
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      09-13-2008, 03:16 PM   #10
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He did. He posted a time but the thread got deleted. He posted his time up over at MBworld as well.

I think he got somewhere in the vicinity of 12.4 at 113~ish.
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      09-13-2008, 03:41 PM   #11
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Originally Posted by UltimateBMW View Post
He did. He posted a time but the thread got deleted. He posted his time up over at MBworld as well.

I think he got somewhere in the vicinity of 12.4 at 113~ish.
So the thread gods have struck? Why?

In any event, he said he did a best of 12.47 @ 113.72, if memory serves. If anybody else is up for it, just post your timeslips, and we can begin to see just how effective the M3 auto (or stick, for that matter) is in an organized event.

Bruce

Last edited by bruce.augenstein@comcast.; 09-13-2008 at 08:55 PM.
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      09-13-2008, 04:25 PM   #12
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I've never run a drag strip, does anyone have any pointers?
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      09-13-2008, 04:26 PM   #13
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Still not proof that the C63 will be quicker but it is pretty damming none the less.

[u2b]ywUB-sqa6zk&feature=related[/u2b]

As you can clearly see the GTR is in a totally different league to the M3 in acceleration.

OT but if you are interested to see what the same GTR can do against 2 M5.

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      09-13-2008, 11:29 PM   #14
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I've never run a drag strip, does anyone have any pointers?
First of all, you're looking for a session labelled "test session", "test and tune", "grudge night", or something of the sort. These are held on, say, Wednesday or Friday nights, or Saturdays. You don't want a normal Sunday schedule, because you're not interested in a formal drag race session. You want a show-up-and-make-some-passes session, where the guy in the other lane may be in diesel pickup or a big-block '60s Vette running in the eights - and it just doesn't matter.

Incidentally, the guy in the diesel pickup may kick your ass, but don't worry about that, either. You're there to ask questions, have fun and learn what your car can do.

When you show up early, pay your money (probably between $15 and $25), and follow somebody to the tech check. This will be straightforward and uncomplicated in your case (because you're stock and late model), but probably thorough as well. They'll number your car with shoe polish on your windows, and you're done. Note that you're going to need a helmet because of your car's performance, and they may check it at this point. Also note that you want to show up unencumbered with gum wrappers, anvils, etc. in the car, as that makes life less complicated at this point, any way you look at it. Just show up with everything stock (including air pressure), pretty much the way you run it on those early Sunday morning runs in the twisties.

Ordinarily, I'd say find a good spot in the pits to park, but since you're not going to be claiming that spot (with, say, your spare tire or whatever) and you're early, just park somewhere and wander around to get the lay of the land.

Sometime during the session, you should absolutely go to the grandstands just to watch the show. I recommend you do this after getting at least a couple of passes under your belt, because you'll be smarter about what you're watching. In the stands, watch the starts closely, as it'll give you a good feel about when you can launch, what works, etc. You'll also get a good feel for just how often a slower car can beat a faster car, and how a higher finishing speed (and often a lower elapsed time) mean nothing in a drag race. It's who gets to the finish line first.

When they're available (you're early, right?), get to the staging lanes - an area of six or eight or whatever number of paved lanes near the starting line - and get in line in one of them. They're there to control traffic out onto the track itself, and track workers will direct you and others out onto the track in a controlled and orderly fashion.

Note that you want to run your engine as little as possible during all of this, and when stopped for any length of time, shut off and pop the hood, as heat soak is not a good thing in any performance venue.

When you're directed out onto the track (from and to whichever lane), the first thing to remember is to avoid any and all water as if you were the wicked witch. Only cars with competition slicks can benefit from a burnout, so drive around any and all moisture as you move up toward the starting line as you await your turn. You'll see other cars do burnouts just before they are waved to the starting line, but don't bother. Instead, when you get to that area and are waved forward (driving around the water), just rev it a bit and pop the clutch with a stick, or punch it quick with the M-DCT, just enough in either case to clean the tires of any pebbles, etc. Nothing spectacular. Just turn the tires once or twice, more or less in place.

As you move up toward the start, you'll notice "the christmas tree", a short tower between the two lanes, several car-lengths down track. It's topped (for each lane) with a pair of small amber lights, followed by three larger amber lights, followed by a green light, followed by a red light at the bottom of the stack.

The top light is the "pre-stage" light, which illuminates when you break an infrared beam with your front tires, and it's there to tell you that you're a few inches away from the actual starting line. Just crawl forward until the "staged" (second) light comes on, and stop instantly. Your front tires have just broken the starting line beam, and you are now good to go.

OK, your heart is now pumping hard, so just try and relax. It's only time trials, and there's nothing at stake. When both cars are staged, just ignore whatever is in the other lane, bring your revs up (or whatever it is you do when you want to make a strong launch on the street), and wait for the three amber lights to begin counting down, a half second between lights, and another half second after the last amber for the green light to pop on.

Because your front tires have just barely broken the staged beam, you can roll about a foot before you leave the beam and the clocks start, so you can basically launch as soon as the last amber light flares. If you wait for the green, your track-savvy evil twin in the other lane in an identical car will beat you to the finish line by about five car lengths - with the exact same ET and speed. No big deal. Just launch on the last amber instead of the green. Even if you leave early (and thus foul, lighting the red light), no problem. Just keep going and complete the run. Your ET and speed will be unaffected, so you just lose the race. You'll still get your timeslip, and that's what you're here for, right?.

Note that you don't have to start when the green comes on, so if something isn't right, make it right and launch as soon as you can after that. Again, your ET and speed will be unaffected - you'll just lose the race.

As to the actual race, the launch is all-important, so you clearly want to work on getting that right. You're on stock sneakers, so there are two issues. The first is that the rubber is optimized for fairly low slip rates. Today's high-performance tires will show the best grip when slipping by somewhere in the eight to ten percent area (meaning perhaps a very little bit of squeal at most - no screech), and grip fades severely as slip rates go up. So if you light 'em up, you're done for, ET and speed wise.

The second thing is, don't get brutal off the line. You basically have Michelin paint on your rims, and there's not enough sidewall to cushion any shocks. I tell people the same thing at the drag strip as I do during track days:

"Go fast slowly."

Launch hard, but absolutely as smoothly as possible. I'll leave M-DCT techniques to others, but with a stick, pick your rpm (I'd start with, say, 3000 or so), and launch pretty much the same way you'd do a normal, in-traffic start on the street - except on steroids. Use as much throttle as you can get away with, but just feather the clutch to hold the revs at 3000 for as long as it takes car speed to catch up with engine speed. Say, a second and a half at most, at which point the clutch is all the way out and you're on the floor.

Then, after you've done all that gear-banging (of whatever nature) and such, make sure you race for the full quarter mile. You'll know you're done when your ET and speed come up on a down-track tower on your side, and you can let off and coast for a little, because you have at least three-eighths of a mile before you'll need to make a U turn and come back down toward the starting line on the return road. Somewhere along there (varies by track), will be the timing shack where you can pick up your time slip.

Then it's back to the staging lanes for your next pass. If you get there early, you'll probably be able to make several passes fairly quickly before everything slows down with more and more cars joining the fray. Then go find a spot to park with hood up and sit in the stands for awhile, analyzing techniques in the light of your recent experience before rejoining the fray. You'll also have the opportunity to observe some fairly spectacular machinery from time to time.

Also some crap, of course. It's only a practice session, and anybody can play if they pass tech - but you can learn from pretty much any kind of pass involving pretty much any kind of car.

That's pretty much it. Have fun, ask questions in the staging lanes of people who seem to know what they're doing, and don't let the Red Mist rise, even if there's a C63 in the other lane. You'll just blow the pass.

Bruce
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      09-14-2008, 12:05 AM   #15
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Wow Bruce, thanks for the excellent writeup. You clearly have thought through this. I've been to 17 HPDE days, so I'm familiar with some of the stuff you wrote, but you sewed it all up into an excellent post.

Do you have any interest in driving the 90 minutes to ATCO sometime? For me it's 15 minutes from my house. In fact I passed by there today and it must have been a motorcycle day, there were sportbikes everywhere.

Are you an instructor for the BMWCCA?
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      09-14-2008, 09:28 AM   #16
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Quote:
Originally Posted by skierman64 View Post
Wow Bruce, thanks for the excellent writeup. You clearly have thought through this. I've been to 17 HPDE days, so I'm familiar with some of the stuff you wrote, but you sewed it all up into an excellent post.

Do you have any interest in driving the 90 minutes to ATCO sometime? For me it's 15 minutes from my house. In fact I passed by there today and it must have been a motorcycle day, there were sportbikes everywhere.

Are you an instructor for the BMWCCA?
Since I haven't been to a track day this year, I think it's fair to say that I used to be an instructor.

I have a first class facility not far away at Maple Grove, so Atco isn't in the cards for me. They have (or at least had) a remarkably good starting line there, though. I wandered down a couple of times from Boston with a bunch of serious drag racers who would annually rent the track each Friday before Thanksgiving, and, given a decent barometer, my completely stock '93 Vette would run 12.9s and 13.0s there, which was pretty damned good for a 3560 pound car with (oof!) me aboard, and 300 HP. It took an especially good day for me to be able to do that at New England Dragway.

Have fun.

Bruce
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      09-14-2008, 11:30 AM   #17
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wow that C63 is fast
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      09-14-2008, 03:54 PM   #18
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Quote:
Originally Posted by footie View Post
Still not proof that the C63 will be quicker but it is pretty damming none the less.

[u2b]ywUB-sqa6zk&feature=related[/u2b]

As you can clearly see the GTR is in a totally different league to the M3 in acceleration.

OT but if you are interested to see what the same GTR can do against 2 M5.

there's another video where the m5's are ahead, so who knows.
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