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      09-08-2008, 10:46 PM   #1
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For all those blaming Bush and the Republicans

http://www.bercasio.com/movies/dems-wmd-before-iraq.wmv

Seems as though the Democrats believed it was the right decision as well. Oh ya... only one senator voted not to invade.

But if you think it was wrong to invade blame the whole government, not one person or one party.

A little food for thought.
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      09-08-2008, 11:35 PM   #2
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Toomstone View Post
http://www.bercasio.com/movies/dems-wmd-before-iraq.wmv

Seems as though the Democrats believed it was the right decision as well. Oh ya... only one senator voted not to invade.

But if you think it was wrong to invade blame the whole government, not one person or one party.

A little food for thought.
Thanks for that. In the face of partisan criticism, we always need to reaffirm that this was a common goal of the executive and legislative branches of government, and widely supported by the electorate.
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      09-08-2008, 11:37 PM   #3
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      09-09-2008, 09:06 AM   #4
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This is nothing new.

What got so many democrates, republicans, and independents angry was the faulity and possibly intentionally misleading (still unsure of) information that President Bush and his administration used to get the backing of our congress to move forward with Iraq when we did.
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      09-09-2008, 09:22 AM   #5
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Originally Posted by TMNT View Post
This is nothing new.

What got so many democrates, republicans, and independents angry was the faulity and possibly intentionally misleading (still unsure of) information that President Bush and his administration used to get the backing of our congress to move forward with Iraq when we did.
How many investigations do you need before you are satisfied that no one intentionally misled anyone or improperly pressured analysts in the run up to the war?

The Silberman-Robb Commission, the Senate Intelligence Committee, the UK's Butler Report all found the same thing. No one intentionally misled anyone.

FWIW, the intelligence assessment was virtually the same under Clinton.
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      09-09-2008, 11:55 AM   #6
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Originally Posted by ganeil View Post
How many investigations do you need before you are satisfied that no one intentionally misled anyone or improperly pressured analysts in the run up to the war?
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      09-09-2008, 12:06 PM   #7
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ganeil View Post
How many investigations do you need before you are satisfied that no one intentionally misled anyone or improperly pressured analysts in the run up to the war?

The Silberman-Robb Commission, the Senate Intelligence Committee, the UK's Butler Report all found the same thing. No one intentionally misled anyone.

FWIW, the intelligence assessment was virtually the same under Clinton.
only 1, but not under the administration that did it!!!
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      09-09-2008, 12:09 PM   #8
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ganeil View Post
How many investigations do you need before you are satisfied that no one intentionally misled anyone or improperly pressured analysts in the run up to the war?
And how many of Bush's own cabinet do you need to resign & write books about how he purposefully lied and misled reasons for going into Iraq? There's been what, 3 or 4 of them now
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      09-09-2008, 12:11 PM   #9
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Originally Posted by Spec 1 View Post
And how many of Bush's own cabinet do you need to resign & write books about how he purposefully lied and misled reasons for going into Iraq? There's been what, 3 or 4 of them now
u only believe them when they're working for bush, once they resign or get fired and tell the truth no one hears them anymore. i also find it funny how they bluntly lie when they're in administration and wait until it's too late to tell what actually happened *cough* Powell *cough*
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      09-09-2008, 12:37 PM   #10
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Originally Posted by Spec 1 View Post
And how many of Bush's own cabinet do you need to resign & write books about how he purposefully lied and misled reasons for going into Iraq? There's been what, 3 or 4 of them now
Would you like to name them? Citations would be useful also.
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      09-09-2008, 12:39 PM   #11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ganeil View Post
Would you like to name them? Citations would be useful also.
u play dumb or what??? Colin Powell on the presentation before the UN about the mobile iraqi chemical WMD labs??????

GTFO man... that's why i never take u serious, coz u just play dumb and never admit anything. ur just a blind follower, so closed minded. u think bush is a saint just coz he hears voices in his head that he thinks God talks to him?
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      09-09-2008, 12:42 PM   #12
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Originally Posted by ///Mantis View Post
u play dumb or what??? Colin Powell on the presentation before the UN about the mobile iraqi chemical WMD labs??????

GTFO man... that's why i never take u serious, coz u just play dumb and never admit anything. ur just a blind follower, so closed minded. u think bush is a saint just coz he hears voices in his head that he thinks God talks to him?
When did Sec. Powell ever say that he intentionally misled anyone in his UN presentation? He has said he is embarrassed that some of what he said turned out to be incorrect but he has NEVER said he intentionally deceived anyone.
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      09-09-2008, 12:45 PM   #13
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I think it is hilarious how you all think the president has sooooo much power. There is no way that an investigation could be run by Congress? No matter what they were working for Bush right? Bush knew the truth but he himself gave all the wrong Iraq intelligence to Congress right? He went over to Iraq, got the intelligence, and came back and lied about it? What makes you think that he heard something different from Congress?

Makes no sense to blame one guy...
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      09-09-2008, 01:14 PM   #14
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Toomstone View Post
I think it is hilarious how you all think the president has sooooo much power.
Arguably the President has more power now that he should. This is more Congress' fault than it is the President's.

The nature of this imbalance of power is in the executive power to wage war without a declaration of war by Congress. Congress wants to make themselves blamesless, rather than taking responsibility for their own decisions. It's too easy for them to just blame the one guy to whom they gave the power. It is unconstitutional.

Secondly, the President has too much power that was given by the U.S.A. Patriot Act. This also is an act of Congress. It is time to let it lapse.

Thirdly, the President has too much power with Executive Orders.

Certainly there are other areas where the Presidency has power that was not conferred on it by the Constitution, but by Congress. The same can be said of the Supreme Court of the United States.
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      09-09-2008, 01:20 PM   #15
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Originally Posted by scottwww View Post
The nature of this imbalance of power is in the executive power to wage war without a declaration of war by Congress. Congress wants to make themselves blamesless, rather than taking responsibility for their own decisions. It's too easy for them to just blame the one guy to whom they gave the power. It is unconstitutional.

Secondly, the President has too much power that was given by the U.S.A. Patriot Act. This also is an act of Congress. It is time to let it lapse.

Thirdly, the President has too much power with Executive Orders.
Maybe you should familiarize yourself with the President's inherent powers under Article 2 before you make statements like these.

What illicit power did the Patriot Act give the President?

How is the President issuing an order to his subordinates in the Executive branch unconstitutional?
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      09-09-2008, 01:21 PM   #16
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Quote:
Originally Posted by scottwww View Post
Arguably the President has more power now that he should. This is more Congress' fault than it is the President's.

The nature of this imbalance of power is in the executive power to wage war without a declaration of war by Congress. Congress wants to make themselves blamesless, rather than taking responsibility for their own decisions. It's too easy for them to just blame the one guy to whom they gave the power. It is unconstitutional.

Secondly, the President has too much power that was given by the U.S.A. Patriot Act. This also is an act of Congress. It is time to let it lapse.

Thirdly, the President has too much power with Executive Orders.

Certainly there are other areas where the Presidency has power that was not conferred on it by the Constitution, but by Congress. The same can be said of the Supreme Court of the United States.
True... but in this instance Congress voted for it so they are just as responsible. Watching the media makes you think Bush single handedly(sp?) started this war with no support.
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      09-09-2008, 01:55 PM   #17
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ganeil View Post
Maybe you should familiarize yourself with the President's inherent powers under Article 2 before you make statements like these.

What illicit power did the Patriot Act give the President?

How is the President issuing an order to his subordinates in the Executive branch unconstitutional?
I am familiar with it enough. I assume in Article 2 that you are referring to Section 2. What is dealing with the decision of war is from Article 1 as quoted below. If I quoted the wrong part of Article 2, other than what you intended, then were do I find that congress can give the President power to make war without a declaration of war? Maybe you are thinking of the states defending themselves against invasion? Couldn't be that. So, what are you talking about? (BTW: I didn't refer to the other two points as being unconstitutonal, though I wouldn't be surprised if they could be determined to be so. The USA Patriot Act should only be in place during a time of war, which we are, though it is unconstitutionally not a declared war.)

Article 1, Section 8 - Powers of Congress

To declare War, grant Letters of Marque and Reprisal, and make Rules concerning Captures on Land and Water;

Article 2, Section 2 - Civilian Power over Military, Cabinet, Pardon Power, Appointments

The President shall be Commander in Chief of the Army and Navy of the United States, and of the Militia of the several States, when called into the actual Service of the United States; he may require the Opinion, in writing, of the principal Officer in each of the executive Departments, upon any subject relating to the Duties of their respective Offices, and he shall have Power to Grant Reprieves and Pardons for Offenses against the United States, except in Cases of Impeachment.

He shall have Power, by and with the Advice and Consent of the Senate, to make Treaties, provided two thirds of the Senators present concur; and he shall nominate, and by and with the Advice and Consent of the Senate, shall appoint Ambassadors, other public Ministers and Consuls, Judges of the supreme Court, and all other Officers of the United States, whose Appointments are not herein otherwise provided for, and which shall be established by Law: but the Congress may by Law vest the Appointment of such inferior Officers, as they think proper, in the President alone, in the Courts of Law, or in the Heads of Departments.

The President shall have Power to fill up all Vacancies that may happen during the Recess of the Senate, by granting Commissions which shall expire at the End of their next Session.
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      09-09-2008, 02:07 PM   #18
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Patriot act this and that... if you want to complain about that make sure you review all the parts of it that were repealed. People are still complaining about that and don't know how much of it was taken off the initial bill.
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      09-09-2008, 02:10 PM   #19
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Not that I have researched this one myself, but Executive Orders that cross over into effectively legislating from the Presidency would be just as wrong as legislating from the courts. There is to be a separation of powers. Each branch of government needs to cooperate with the other two. None should usurp the power of the other.

We are supposed to be a Constitutional Republic. We are not a Democracy. We are not a Monarchy.
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Executive Orders

Article 1, Section 1 of the Constitution clearly restricts the power to make laws: "All legislative Powers herein granted shall be vested in a Congress of the United States".

Presidential Executive Orders are clearly "legislative powers".

We oppose the use of Presidential executive orders that make law or otherwise usurp the Constitutional authority and responsibilities of the legislative and judicial branches. This Constitutionally subversive practice must be stopped by Congress. All unconstitutional executive orders must be repealed.
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      09-09-2008, 02:12 PM   #20
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I am familiar with it enough. I assume in Article 2 that you are referring to Section 2.
The President has inherent authority to as Commander in Chief of the Armed Forces to deploy and order to combat those armed forces as he sees fit regardless of whether the Congress has declared war or not. That power has been recognized and utilized by presidents since Washington.

Congress can, of course, refuse to fund any military operation of which it does not approve.

You have an exceedingly simplistic view of the Constitution and your constant amateurish analysis of what is or is not constitutional suffers greatly for it. There is nothing unconstitutional about the war we are currently engaged in. Both the operations in Afghanistan and Iraq were authorized by the Congress in a manner the fully satisfies the Constitution's war declaration power. There is simply no substantive difference in the Congress titling its resolution an authorization to use force or a declaration of war. You are splitting meaningless hairs.

I am still waiting for which powers the Patriot Act grants that you find objectionable.
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      09-09-2008, 02:14 PM   #21
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Not that I have researched this one myself, but Executive Orders that cross over into effectively legislating from the Presidency would be just as wrong as legislating from the courts.....
Do you have examples?
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      09-09-2008, 02:21 PM   #22
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Toomstone View Post
True... but in this instance Congress voted for it so they are just as responsible. Watching the media makes you think Bush single handedly(sp?) started this war with no support.
It's not Bush's fault that Congress is so limp-wristed that it cannot fulfill it's responsibility to declare war or deny funds for war. He did what he could. Power corrupts. When that power is unchecked, it loses the concensus.

However, a better president (perhaps none with such principles exists) would hold Congress to their obligations. If they do not declare war, we don't go to war on foreign soil. He/she would have to win Congressional support and make it Constitutionally correct [maybe I just coined a phrase].
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