BMW M3 Forum (E90 E92)

BMW Garage BMW Meets Register Search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read


Go Back   M3Post - BMW M3 Forum > E90/E92 M3 Technical Topics > Engine, Transmission, Exhaust, Drivetrain, ECU Software Modifications
 
GetBMWParts
Post Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
      09-08-2008, 04:27 PM   #45
Voltigeur
MacroRisk
Voltigeur's Avatar
Australia
35
Rep
2,519
Posts

 
Drives: M3 E92 ED'09 / 335d Sport DD
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: TX

iTrader: (0)

Impressive. I will be really interested to hear about how this changes the M3's character / driveability (if any).
__________________

Just thinking of something not so witty
///M3 E92 '09 Jerez Black | 6MT | Ext Fox Red | Tech | Prem | 19s |Heated Seats | iPod |Smartphone | Euro Deliv June 09
Sold: 540iT / 530i / 323i
Appreciate 0
      09-08-2008, 04:32 PM   #46
ModBargains.com
Banned
United_States
316
Rep
13,593
Posts

 
Drives: JB E92 335i
Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: 1721 E. Lambert Rd #C, La Habra, CA 90631

iTrader: (51)

Wow this is good stuff. Keep up the good work and keep us updated!
Appreciate 0
      09-08-2008, 05:00 PM   #47
Ilia@IND
BimmerPost Supporting Vendor
Ilia@IND's Avatar
105
Rep
2,203
Posts


 
Drives: F82 M4
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: Chicago

iTrader: (3)

This is really very cool! I'd love to see some detailed photos of the engine build as it progresses.
__________________
Appreciate 0
      09-08-2008, 05:12 PM   #48
dvpouldar26
Major
dvpouldar26's Avatar
25
Rep
1,493
Posts

 
Drives: 2008 e92 328i, Porsche 987.1
Join Date: May 2008
Location: Beverly Hills, CA

iTrader: (4)

The car in the background is a Ferrari 275 GTB.
Appreciate 0
      09-08-2008, 06:18 PM   #49
RDSport
Private
RDSport's Avatar
United_States
1
Rep
62
Posts

 
Drives: 2007 RS35 Biturbo
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: Laguna Niguel, CA

iTrader: (0)

Send a message via Skype™ to RDSport
Quote:
Originally Posted by mkoesel View Post
OR if you won't discuss them because you are trying to keep those things proprietary?
There is more to loose than there is to gain in posting specific engine data, as the people who are interested in buying the car or the upgrade usually are concerned with the way it drives, and the cost, not the wrist pin size and the compression ratio. Publishing such details only encourages others to duplicate, so if this has to happen, let them do their homework and find out for themselves what works and what doesn't.

Obviously, once you put your name on an RS46, this information may be disclosed, if you wish. Some specifics, though, are not for the public nor the press.

We don't want to be arrogant, nor difficult, but when I built the 1st R35 motor on the old S52 US motor, one of my subcontractors publicized the availability of the engine before he even supplied us with the components he was paid for.

I can think of at least 3 outfits within a 50 mile radius from us that would use this information to their advantage, so the discretion and secrecy is to protect us from the rapacious.

I hope you all understand.
Appreciate 0
      09-08-2008, 06:26 PM   #50
Sticky
Banned
United_States
30
Rep
2,244
Posts

 
Drives: E92 Jerez DCT M3
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Anaheim Hills / Malibu

iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by RDSport View Post
There is more to loose than there is to gain in posting specific engine data, as the people who are interested in buying the car or the upgrade usually are concerned with the way it drives, and the cost, not the wrist pin size and the compression ratio. Publishing such details only encourages others to duplicate, so if this has to happen, let them do their homework and find out for themselves what works and what doesn't.

Obviously, once you put your name on an RS46, this information may be disclosed, if you wish. Some specifics, though, are not for the public nor the press.

We don't want to be arrogant, nor difficult, but when I built the 1st R35 motor on the old S52 US motor, one of my subcontractors publicized the availability of the engine before he even supplied us with the components he was paid for.

I can think of at least 3 outfits within a 50 mile radius from us that would use this information to their advantage, so the discretion and secrecy is to protect us from the rapacious.

I hope you all understand.
Translation: We want to keep the profit for ourselves.

Once others find out the specs they will do it for less. I understand your position, I would do the same.
Appreciate 0
      09-08-2008, 06:29 PM   #51
FranklinDelanoBluth
New Member
United_States
1
Rep
25
Posts

 
Drives: E92 M3, F430
Join Date: Aug 2008
Location: Newport Beach

iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sticky View Post
Translation: We want to keep the profit for ourselves.

Once others find out the specs they will do it for less. I understand your position, I would do the same.
Actual translation: Why spend the money on R&D so that other people can benefit for free? How many companies give away their trade secrets to the competition? It's not as simple as getting specs and finding some backyard hacks to make parts to build a motor. If money is a concern, don't rebuild your motor.
Appreciate 0
      09-08-2008, 06:38 PM   #52
positiveions
Lieutenant General
positiveions's Avatar
Lebanon
114
Rep
10,529
Posts

 
Drives: 09 MKV JETTA 2.5 & E90 M3 :)
Join Date: Sep 2007
Location: La Verne, CA

iTrader: (1)

Send a message via MSN to positiveions Send a message via Yahoo to positiveions
Appreciate 0
      09-08-2008, 06:48 PM   #53
DanB.
First Lieutenant
7
Rep
360
Posts

 
Drives: E92 M3
Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: California

iTrader: (0)

Wow! amazing
Appreciate 0
      09-08-2008, 08:56 PM   #54
RDSport
Private
RDSport's Avatar
United_States
1
Rep
62
Posts

 
Drives: 2007 RS35 Biturbo
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: Laguna Niguel, CA

iTrader: (0)

Send a message via Skype™ to RDSport
Quote:
Originally Posted by FranklinDelanoBluth View Post
Actual translation: Why spend the money on R&D so that other people can benefit for free?
Right on the money (no pun intended)! Thank you.
Appreciate 0
      09-08-2008, 09:17 PM   #55
lucid
Major General
lucid's Avatar
United_States
116
Rep
8,034
Posts

 
Drives: E30 M3; Expedition
Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: USA

iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by FranklinDelanoBluth View Post
Actual translation: Why spend the money on R&D so that other people can benefit for free? How many companies give away their trade secrets to the competition? It's not as simple as getting specs and finding some backyard hacks to make parts to build a motor. If money is a concern, don't rebuild your motor.
Well, if competitors really want to know, they can reverse engineer a similar system from an existing conversion they will get their hands onto. But of course, that is harder to do than read the internet for published specs as it requires one to take a converted engine apart. Plus, that reults in some kind of time to market lag, and whoever gets to the market with a credible product first will potentially establish a stronger position.
__________________
Appreciate 0
      09-08-2008, 09:21 PM   #56
lucid
Major General
lucid's Avatar
United_States
116
Rep
8,034
Posts

 
Drives: E30 M3; Expedition
Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: USA

iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by RDSport View Post
Warranty is 2 years/50K miles, or the remainder of your new BMW warranty.
Those are great terms!

Is there anything you can say--without going into specs--why your conversion might be superior to the Dinan M3 stroker kit that is under development, which is supposed to be mechanically the same conversion as the M5/M6 stroker conversion minus a couple of cylinders?
__________________
Appreciate 0
      09-08-2008, 09:28 PM   #57
RDSport
Private
RDSport's Avatar
United_States
1
Rep
62
Posts

 
Drives: 2007 RS35 Biturbo
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: Laguna Niguel, CA

iTrader: (0)

Send a message via Skype™ to RDSport
Quote:
Originally Posted by lucid View Post
Those are great terms!

Is there anything you can say--without going into specs--why your conversion might be superior to the Dinan M3 stroker kit that is under development, which is supposed to be mechanically the same conversion as the M5/M6 stroker conversion minus a couple of cylinders?
I am sorry but I don't know much about the Dinan stroker kit. I think I know who developed it, so I have a feeling for what it is, but not enough to speculate. What I do know is that we supply a complete race header with metal matrix cats, and I do not believe Dinan does. As far as internals, I am sure we have different suppliers as Dinan uses domestic suppliers and we use European suppliers, and we may be off on bore and stroke by a little bit.
Appreciate 0
      09-08-2008, 09:43 PM   #58
lucid
Major General
lucid's Avatar
United_States
116
Rep
8,034
Posts

 
Drives: E30 M3; Expedition
Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: USA

iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by RDSport View Post
I am sorry but I don't know much about the Dinan stroker kit. I think I know who developed it, so I have a feeling for what it is, but not enough to speculate. What I do know is that we supply a complete race header with metal matrix cats, and I do not believe Dinan does. As far as internals, I am sure we have different suppliers as Dinan uses domestic suppliers and we use European suppliers, and we may be off on bore and stroke by a little bit.
OK. Thanks for the response.
__________________
Appreciate 0
      09-08-2008, 10:24 PM   #59
Sticky
Banned
United_States
30
Rep
2,244
Posts

 
Drives: E92 Jerez DCT M3
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Anaheim Hills / Malibu

iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by FranklinDelanoBluth View Post
Actual translation: Why spend the money on R&D so that other people can benefit for free? How many companies give away their trade secrets to the competition? It's not as simple as getting specs and finding some backyard hacks to make parts to build a motor. If money is a concern, don't rebuild your motor.
Welcome to Capitalism. How about spend your money wisely? If you want to be first in line, go right ahead, I think many others will watch as the aftermarket landscape takes shape over the next couple years for the M3.

Did you miss where I said if I were them I would do the same thing? You are truly naive if you think someone will not put a competing kit on the market that may be superior for less money later on.
Appreciate 0
      09-08-2008, 11:09 PM   #60
FranklinDelanoBluth
New Member
United_States
1
Rep
25
Posts

 
Drives: E92 M3, F430
Join Date: Aug 2008
Location: Newport Beach

iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sticky View Post
Welcome to Capitalism. How about spend your money wisely? If you want to be first in line, go right ahead, I think many others will watch as the aftermarket landscape takes shape over the next couple years for the M3.

Did you miss where I said if I were them I would do the same thing? You are truly naive if you think someone will not put a competing kit on the market that may be superior for less money later on.
I didn't see the point of your contradicting post berating the company for being secretive and then saying you would do the same. As far as competing kits in the future, from what I can tell the S85 engine in the M5/M6 has only two stroker options - Racing Dynamics and Dinan, and that motor has been out for 4 years. I think pricing for both kits is similar too. Maybe in a few years there will be a turbo/supercharger kit from some unheard of company for a fraction of the price, but I'd pass on that option. As far as spending money wisely is concerned, to each his own.
Appreciate 0
      09-08-2008, 11:41 PM   #61
Sticky
Banned
United_States
30
Rep
2,244
Posts

 
Drives: E92 Jerez DCT M3
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Anaheim Hills / Malibu

iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by FranklinDelanoBluth View Post
I didn't see the point of your contradicting post berating the company for being secretive and then saying you would do the same. As far as competing kits in the future, from what I can tell the S85 engine in the M5/M6 has only two stroker options - Racing Dynamics and Dinan, and that motor has been out for 4 years. I think pricing for both kits is similar too. Maybe in a few years there will be a turbo/supercharger kit from some unheard of company for a fraction of the price, but I'd pass on that option. As far as spending money wisely is concerned, to each his own.
When did I berate them? The fact is they remain scretaive to protect their profits, that is a fact it is neither negative nor positive.

The E39 M5 was out for a much longer time than the E46 M3, which car had the larger aftermarket? Hell, how about vs. the E36 M3?

The M3's ALWAYS have more parts, superchargers, strokers, forced induction, you name it. Larger market that wants to tune, you should be able to figure that out.

Some unheard of company? I bet BHS will have something, maybe evosport, maybe turner, there are plenty of other tuners out there who have done engine work and are on Dinan's level of expertise if not higher.
Appreciate 0
      09-08-2008, 11:47 PM   #62
RDSport
Private
RDSport's Avatar
United_States
1
Rep
62
Posts

 
Drives: 2007 RS35 Biturbo
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: Laguna Niguel, CA

iTrader: (0)

Send a message via Skype™ to RDSport
Quote:
Originally Posted by PencilGeek View Post
So what if we published everything? So what if they knew we used Carrillo rods, JE Pistons, Manley valves, designed our own valve springs.
I think we are getting off-topic. The issue isn't who manufactures, but to what specs the components are manufactured. That being said, I can tell you that you cannot build a High Capacity S65/S85 motor entirely from domestic (US) suppliers.

As far as disclosing information indiscriminately in the hopes that the general public "will eventually see the light", we just have to agree to disagree on this subject.
Appreciate 0
      09-08-2008, 11:51 PM   #63
Sticky
Banned
United_States
30
Rep
2,244
Posts

 
Drives: E92 Jerez DCT M3
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Anaheim Hills / Malibu

iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by RDSport View Post
I think we are getting off-topic. The issue isn't who manufactures, but to what specs the components are manufactured. That being said, I can tell you that you cannot build a High Capacity S65/S85 motor entirely from domestic (US) suppliers.

As far as disclosing information indiscriminately in the hopes that the general public "will eventually see the light", we just have to agree to disagree on this subject.
With all the motor parts built in this country I don't see how one could not get rods, pistons, crank, etc. built to spec. The tuning is a whole different issue.
Appreciate 0
      09-09-2008, 12:05 AM   #64
RDSport
Private
RDSport's Avatar
United_States
1
Rep
62
Posts

 
Drives: 2007 RS35 Biturbo
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: Laguna Niguel, CA

iTrader: (0)

Send a message via Skype™ to RDSport
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sticky View Post
When did I berate them? The fact is they remain scretaive to protect their profits, that is a fact it is neither negative nor positive.
I don't wish to contradict you, but the reality at Racing Dynamics S.p.A./RDSport is that HC Motors are sold as a loss-leader. We use the aura of the cars that we outfit with our motors to drive the business for our parts. I have rarely seen anyone coming into the market with an identical product to ours at a lesser cost. I would be willing to bet that we give you more components per dollar spent than any other tuner, and this ratio would skew even more in our favor if you calculated our actual cost (from purchasing all European components in Euro) vs. the cost of our competitors.

We welcome any and all competition, providing we all agree to compare apples to apples and oranges to oranges. Ultimately, it all comes down to bang-for-the-buck, and this is a parameter that we always consider at RDSport.
Appreciate 0
      09-09-2008, 12:08 AM   #65
RDSport
Private
RDSport's Avatar
United_States
1
Rep
62
Posts

 
Drives: 2007 RS35 Biturbo
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: Laguna Niguel, CA

iTrader: (0)

Send a message via Skype™ to RDSport
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sticky View Post
With all the motor parts built in this country I don't see how one could not get rods, pistons, crank, etc. built to spec.
There is a parameter (the only one you haven't mentioned) which is proprietary to Mahle, and that is the coating of the S85/S65 piston. Without that, close but no cigar!
Appreciate 0
      09-09-2008, 12:26 AM   #66
FranklinDelanoBluth
New Member
United_States
1
Rep
25
Posts

 
Drives: E92 M3, F430
Join Date: Aug 2008
Location: Newport Beach

iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sticky View Post
When did I berate them? The fact is they remain scretaive to protect their profits, that is a fact it is neither negative nor positive.

The E39 M5 was out for a much longer time than the E46 M3, which car had the larger aftermarket? Hell, how about vs. the E36 M3?

The M3's ALWAYS have more parts, superchargers, strokers, forced induction, you name it. Larger market that wants to tune, you should be able to figure that out.

Some unheard of company? I bet BHS will have something, maybe evosport, maybe turner, there are plenty of other tuners out there who have done engine work and are on Dinan's level of expertise if not higher.
First we have accusations of naivety on my part and then 'even you should be able to figure that out?' You sound like a poorly educated teenager. Also, for the record, superchargers are included in the forced induction category.

"Translation: we want to keep the profits for ourselves," is extremely negative and quite frankly so redundant and stupid I cannot believe I'm writing this message as it clearly isn't worth getting into any sort of a discussion with you. The M3 may have a larger tuning market but that does not necessarily correlate into quality aftermarket products. That is a completely off topic discussion that has no place in this thread. Later down the line feel free to write about the tuning kits you purchase from one of the companies you've mentioned, unfortunately I haven't heard of them.
Appreciate 0
Post Reply

Bookmarks

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 07:16 AM.




m3post
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.7.0
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
1Addicts.com, BIMMERPOST.com, E90Post.com, F30Post.com, M3Post.com, ZPost.com, 5Post.com, 6Post.com, 7Post.com, XBimmers.com logo and trademark are properties of BIMMERPOST