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      09-04-2008, 10:51 AM   #23
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Actually a zygote is not considered alive biologically. To be alive something has to be capable of responding to external stimuli.

I consider the anti abortion position many take to be an understandable and noble one that I agree with on most levels. This point is just rhetorical.


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Originally Posted by Gamecock9901 View Post
It's very difficult for me to understand how people try to convince themselves that the definition of "human life" is anything other than simple. I respect that people really do have a hard time with it, but I don't understand it. Arguing over "consciousness" or "viability" or "responsiveness" just doesn't make a lick of sense at all to me.

When sperm meets egg, three things are true. First, there is LIFE in the biological sense. Second, it (really he/she) is HUMAN in the species sense. Third, he/she is DISTINCT in the genetic sense (and thus NOT just a "part of a woman's body"). These are all facts that a lot of people want to deny. I am honestly very confuseed as to why people even try to justify destroying a DISTINCT HUMAN LIFE. It makes my heart heavy to think about it.
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      09-04-2008, 10:56 AM   #24
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I understood what you were getting at. My point is that his votes might not have been quite as black and white as you suggest on THIS particular issue when one looks at the nuances of the bills and the laws already on the books. I do appreciate your digging up everything that you did, I found it interesting. It's a shame this issue is all too often used as a political wedge by those in both parties.

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I guess that would mean that a live baby laying on a table would be alive? And maybe a baby that even if it were born so premature could live with help? Maybe even before that it would be considered that a life has begun?

When does Barack Obama actually consider that life begins? Based on his votes, apparently not even after it is born alive, or partially born.
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      09-04-2008, 11:07 AM   #25
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Actually a zygote is not considered alive biologically. To be alive something has to be capable of responding to external stimuli.

I consider the anti abortion position many take to be an understandable and noble one that I agree with on most levels. This point is just rhetorical.
I appreciate the level-headed response, but I'm curious as to where you get that definition. Is that from a scientific journal? Honestly, I'm curious.

Two days ago, I saw my baby's heart beating on an ultrasound. My wife is in week 7 of pregnancy. There is no way that the baby is "responding to external stimuli" in the way that you're talking about. But he/she is growing, developing, taking in nourishment, etc.

Heck, in my grandfather's last days, he sure wasn't responding to anything.
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      09-04-2008, 11:11 AM   #26
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changing his mind is a very positive thing. i wish G.W. changes his mind about everything he's so stubborn about. this country and its army wouldnt be so exhausted if he had that talent of listening, and correcting his mistakes
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      09-04-2008, 11:21 AM   #27
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Quote:
Originally Posted by E82tt6 View Post
I understood what you were getting at. My point is that his votes might not have been quite as black and white as you suggest on THIS particular issue when one looks at the nuances of the bills and the laws already on the books. I do appreciate your digging up everything that you did, I found it interesting. It's a shame this issue is all too often used as a political wedge by those in both parties.
In my opinion, life begins at conception. That zygote cannot become anything other than a living, breathing human being. Whether the zygote should be defended is a more difficult question. One that is rather clear to me is that once it is a blastocyst (I think that's what it's called once implanted) then it is life that deserves respect as a person. It should have the full protection of the law.
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      09-04-2008, 11:46 AM   #28
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sayemthree View Post
direct quote: On a question referring to the number of abortions in the country, Warren asked Obama at what point he believed babies had human rights.

"Well, you know, I think that whether you're looking at it from a theological perspective or a scientific perspective, answering that question with specificity, you know, is above my pay grade," the Illinois senator replied.

oh yeah. he changed his mond on off shore drilling due to popular demand!
off topic: sorry. How old is your dobie. If you have one. I have two of them at home. great dogs.
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      09-04-2008, 12:43 PM   #29
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Originally Posted by scottwww View Post
In my opinion, life begins at conception. That zygote cannot become anything other than a living, breathing human being. Whether the zygote should be defended is a more difficult question. One that is rather clear to me is that once it is a blastocyst (I think that's what it's called once implanted) then it is life that deserves respect as a person. It should have the full protection of the law.
The thing is that it's almost sheerly an academic argument for the first 4-6 weeks after conception anyway, as most women wouldn't even know they were pregnant yet, and even the ones who would are likely those who are trying like crazy to get pregnant, so they're monitoring it.

By the time you get into the second month, an embryo is already starting to look like a baby. I've got the ultrasound pics to prove it. :-) If people would actually look at the most typical case of what gets "terminated," many of them would be horrified and, I believe, would quickly lose this "personally opposed, but it should be up to the woman" line.
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      09-04-2008, 12:44 PM   #30
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Gamecock9901 View Post
I appreciate the level-headed response, but I'm curious as to where you get that definition. Is that from a scientific journal? Honestly, I'm curious.

Two days ago, I saw my baby's heart beating on an ultrasound. My wife is in week 7 of pregnancy. There is no way that the baby is "responding to external stimuli" in the way that you're talking about. But he/she is growing, developing, taking in nourishment, etc.

Heck, in my grandfather's last days, he sure wasn't responding to anything.
Here's a disscussion on how we should define life, philosophically: http://baharna.com/philos/life.htm

or, from a dictionary(http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/life): ": an organismic state characterized by capacity for metabolism, growth, reaction to stimuli, and reproduction"

From a .edu: http://www.windows.ucar.edu/tour/lin....html&edu=elem

There are subtle variations, but the main principles are: Require energy, potential to reproduce, grow and develop, respond to surrounding.

Also, congratulations!
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      09-04-2008, 12:53 PM   #31
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Quote:
Originally Posted by E82tt6 View Post
and reproduction
My 10 year old daughter is incapable of reproduction. Maybe one of the following definitions apply:

8: a vital or living being; specifically : person <many lives were lost in the disaster>
10: spirit, animation <saw no life in her dancing>
11: the form or pattern of something existing in reality <painted from life>
15: living beings (as of a particular kind or environment) <forest life>
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      09-04-2008, 12:55 PM   #32
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Is a bacteria a life? Can it be anything other than a bacteria?
Is a human zygote a life? Can it be anything other than human?

When the probes on Mars search for life, what criteria will be used to decide whether they have found life?
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      09-04-2008, 01:01 PM   #33
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Quote:
Originally Posted by scottwww View Post
In my opinion, life begins at conception. That zygote cannot become anything other than a living, breathing human being. Whether the zygote should be defended is a more difficult question. One that is rather clear to me is that once it is a blastocyst (I think that's what it's called once implanted) then it is life that deserves respect as a person. It should have the full protection of the law.
I understand that position, respect it, and personally agree with it almost entirely.

I personally believe the only grey area is the very begining of pregnancy, when an embryo does not meet the qualifications for life as it is technically defined.

Even in these cases I personally would be morally opposed to abortion, but I believe that such a decision is at this point based on personal beliefs and morals. As such, I have a difficult time brining myself around to legislation that would impose my, or anyone else's, sense of morality into law in a situation where an argument could be made that the behavior being regulated is not universally amoral. I feel like abortions early in the pregnancy (weeks 1-8) are such a case. The embry does not meet the 'technical' definition of life, and as such, if someone doesn't believe that it should be treated as alive at this point, I would have a hard time arguing with them.

As for a legal solution, I'm somewhat ambivalent. Ideally, I'd like to see state level regulation, or all abortions after the first trimester outright banned except under special circumstances. I would not oppose an outright ban on abortions, but would not support one either.

This is why I don't like the terms "pro life" and "pro choice". I'm neither, and I'm both. I think any abortion that takes place after an embryo has developed to the point where it can respond to external stimuli is CLEARLY termination of human life, and that will likely be 10-14 weeks into the pregnancy. Abortions are usually still allowed into the second trimester, and I think the vast majority of those are clearly the termination of a living human. I also feel like a person could reasonably take a stand for either position for the first few weeks of pregnancy, and would not be opposed to an individual having the ability to make their own moral judgement, or choice, in this period where the embryo would not be considered alive going by the technical definition.

This is one of these issues where I'm usually better served by keeping my mouth shut, because I tend to offend people on both sides of the rope, heh.
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      09-04-2008, 01:05 PM   #34
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Quote:
Originally Posted by scottwww View Post
My 10 year old daughter is incapable of reproduction. Maybe one of the following definitions apply:

8: a vital or living being; specifically : person <many lives were lost in the disaster>
10: spirit, animation <saw no life in her dancing>
11: the form or pattern of something existing in reality <painted from life>
15: living beings (as of a particular kind or environment) <forest life>
She is capable of reproduction as a living thing, just not quite yet. She posses all of the organs, and is capable of producing sex cells. A living thing that is not sexually mature is generally still considered capable of reproduction, because it has all the needed parts, they just haven't been activated yet. Those are all also valid definitons of the word "life". Perhaps a few could even be fit into this context.

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Originally Posted by scottwww View Post
Is a bacteria a life? Can it be anything other than a bacteria?
Is a human zygote a life? Can it be anything other than human?

When the probes on Mars search for life, what criteria will be used to decide whether they have found life?
In all those cases other than the involvement of the word "human", the technical definition will of course be used. When one talks about human life, morals, emotions, and sensibilities get involved, which makes the technical definition inadequate for many people.
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      09-04-2008, 01:11 PM   #35
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Originally Posted by E82tt6 View Post
This is one of these issues where I'm usually better served by keeping my mouth shut, because I tend to offend people on both sides of the rope, heh.
I am not offended. Most people have a simple definition for life, a time that it occurs, or a way to recognize life. A prominent political figure that wants your vote for president says that when life begins is above his pay grade. He lied. He knows what he believes, but was afraid to say it or thought that hiding it at that moment would win him some votes. The guy has no ethic at all when it comes to life and death.
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      09-04-2008, 01:14 PM   #36
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Quote:
Originally Posted by E82tt6 View Post
She is capable of reproduction as a living thing, just not quite yet. She posses all of the organs, and is capable of producing sex cells. A living thing that is not sexually mature is generally still considered capable of reproduction, because it has all the needed parts, they just haven't been activated yet. Those are all also valid definitons of the word "life". Perhaps a few could even be fit into this context..
That doesn't work for me. She is just as incapable of producting a child today as is the zygote.
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In all those cases other than the involvement of the word "human", the technical definition will of course be used. When one talks about human life, morals, emotions, and sensibilities get involved, which makes the technical definition inadequate for many people.
If an embryo at 2 weeks was found on Mars, would scientists say they found life?
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      09-04-2008, 01:26 PM   #37
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If an embryo at 2 weeks was found on Mars, would scientists say they found life?
I'm sure they would. They'd probably say they'd found life if they found an organic molecule that could only be produced by a living thing.
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      09-04-2008, 01:51 PM   #38
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Quote:
Originally Posted by E82tt6 View Post
I personally would be morally opposed to abortion, but I believe that such a decision is at this point based on personal beliefs and morals. As such, I have a difficult time brining myself around to legislation that would impose my, or anyone else's, sense of morality into law in a situation where an argument could be made that the behavior being regulated is not universally amoral.
Many, many, many people feel this way and have felt this way about other issues. Slavery comes to mind. But it is a giant cop out. All laws legislate someone's morality, and there is ALWAYS an argument that can be made on the other side. Besides, your unwillingness to "impose" your sense of morality is a position that you're trying to impose on others that's based on your morality.

This is just a line that has been fed to the masses to keep them from actually dealing with the questions of fact at hand.

Oh, and that comment makes you the very definition of pro-choice, as much as you may not like the label.
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      09-04-2008, 02:00 PM   #39
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Arguing about abortion or religion is pointless.
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      09-04-2008, 02:02 PM   #40
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Quote:
Originally Posted by E82tt6 View Post
Here's a disscussion on how we should define life, philosophically: http://baharna.com/philos/life.htm

or, from a dictionary(http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/life): ": an organismic state characterized by capacity for metabolism, growth, reaction to stimuli, and reproduction"

From a .edu: http://www.windows.ucar.edu/tour/lin....html&edu=elem

There are subtle variations, but the main principles are: Require energy, potential to reproduce, grow and develop, respond to surrounding.

Also, congratulations!

Thanks.

To me, the only one of those four questions that is even remotely in question in a human embryo is the one about response to stimuli. As for potential to reproduce, you have correctly pointed out that a pre-pubescent person has that potential. So, by extrapolation, an embryo has exactly that same potential.

Requiring energy and growing/developing ought to be pretty clear.

Responding to stimuli is a tough one to define. If we're talking about conscious response, well then it's pretty easy to dismiss this criterion out of hand. Many unconscous and semi-conscious people aren't really able to respond to stimuli. If we're talking about unconscious response, then I would suggest that an embryo begins almost immediately to "respond" to the hormones that lead to its development.

All this is very interesting discussion. Even so, it is a distraction from the larger issue. It's abundantly clear that many (and probably most) abortions are permitted and performed long after an embryo/fetus meets any and all reasonable criteria for "life." A beating heart at 6 weeks ought to be a lot more difficult to ignore than the pro-choice crowd would have us believe.
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      09-04-2008, 02:04 PM   #41
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sayemthree View Post
direct quote: On a question referring to the number of abortions in the country, Warren asked Obama at what point he believed babies had human rights.

"Well, you know, I think that whether you're looking at it from a theological perspective or a scientific perspective, answering that question with specificity, you know, is above my pay grade," the Illinois senator replied.

oh yeah. he changed his mond on off shore drilling due to popular demand!
lol, the reporter shouldve said
"Well, Senator, youre answering this question from a Presidential
perspective.... what paygrade is more siuted to answer this question?"

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Originally Posted by lyndon_h View Post
Arguing about abortion or religion is pointless.
Very true!
Reminds me of one these stupid "What if i raced a ******* in my 335" threads.
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      09-04-2008, 04:05 PM   #42
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Quote:
Originally Posted by scottwww View Post
Adolf Hittler didn't himself go to people's houses to kill the Jews.
Did you actually just compare Barack to Adolf Hitler?

Quote:
Originally Posted by sayemthree View Post
direct quote: On a question referring to the number of abortions in the country, Warren asked Obama at what point he believed babies had human rights.

"Well, you know, I think that whether you're looking at it from a theological perspective or a scientific perspective, answering that question with specificity, you know, is above my pay grade," the Illinois senator replied.

oh yeah. he changed his mond on off shore drilling due to popular demand!
Barack obviously didn't want to draw a line of "life" as there may not even be one. This topic has been one of the most debated arguements of recent time and it's something neither side can dispell. Both sides call the other nuts and it is generally not a peacful conversation (as you can see in some of the comments in this thread). He probably didn't want to ripple any waters at the time. That has nothing to do with 'flip-flopping' though.

Secondly, (I am an independent mind you) I have seen McCain 'flip-flop' much more than Obama this election cycle. Both have done it, but Obama has done less so. This is an odd arguement for you to bring up because of it. Again, as an independent, I started this election year on McCain's side but actually drifted a bit to the other since many of the things I've known McCain to stand for have flipped 180 degrees once he needed the Republican base on his side. I didn't think I would have seen that (...as much as I have. You have to expect some.).
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      09-04-2008, 04:11 PM   #43
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Again, as an independent, I started this election year on McCain's side but actually drifted a bit to the other since many of the things I've known McCain to stand for have flipped 180 degrees once he needed the Republican base on his side. I didn't think I would have seen that (...as much as I have. You have to expect some.).
I have heard this charge repeatedly. Maybe you can give me examples. The only issue I recall him changing his mind on is offshore oil drilling.
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      09-04-2008, 05:30 PM   #44
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Quote:
Originally Posted by scottwww View Post
I guess that would mean that a live baby laying on a table would be alive? And maybe a baby that even if it were born so premature could live with help? Maybe even before that it would be considered that a life has begun?

When does Barack Obama actually consider that life begins? Based on his votes, apparently not even after it is born alive, or partially born.
this is the mothers choice not anyone else to have an abortion or not that is how it should be...
Obama is sported by many, including doctors for this reason
Obama is a person who listens to what the people have to say about issues and this is the kind of president we need, a president that will listen to what people have to say
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