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      09-03-2008, 02:08 AM   #1
sayemthree
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Obama is the flip-floppin tell-ya what I need to git a vote guy

direct quote: On a question referring to the number of abortions in the country, Warren asked Obama at what point he believed babies had human rights.

"Well, you know, I think that whether you're looking at it from a theological perspective or a scientific perspective, answering that question with specificity, you know, is above my pay grade," the Illinois senator replied.

oh yeah. he changed his mond on off shore drilling due to popular demand!
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      09-03-2008, 12:09 PM   #2
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sayemthree View Post
direct quote: On a question referring to the number of abortions in the country, Warren asked Obama at what point he believed babies had human rights.

"Well, you know, I think that whether you're looking at it from a theological perspective or a scientific perspective, answering that question with specificity, you know, is above my pay grade," the Illinois senator replied.

oh yeah. he changed his mond on off shore drilling due to popular demand!
It wasn't "above his pay grade" when he voted three times to not end infanticide.

Obama is a callous man with murder in his heart.
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Last edited by scottwww; 09-03-2008 at 12:38 PM.
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      09-03-2008, 12:57 PM   #3
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Quote:
Originally Posted by scottwww View Post
It wasn't "above his pay grade" when he voted three times to not end infanticide.

Obama is a callous man with murder in his heart.
I concur. He will come to your home and eat your children!!

Again with the drama and extreme scenarios.
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      09-03-2008, 12:58 PM   #4
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Why is your title written that way... "flip-floppin tell-ya what i need to git a vote?"

Could you not have given him the respect as to proper English? I think he has earned atleast that much.
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      09-03-2008, 02:16 PM   #5
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It wasn't a very good answer at all, but he has done less flip flopping than McCain has, but more than he should. In the end, all politicians are just that and have to bend sometimes to get elected.
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      09-03-2008, 04:06 PM   #6
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He didn't have a good answer, and said so directly instead of bullshitting? Wow, what a deceptive and excessively political statement.

The "voted for infantcide" claim is flawed. He voted against the bills in question because the laws on the books already covered the situations that the infantcide part of the bill, and he felt the rest of the bill was not wort voting for in his assessment. To say he has murder in his heart is a bit dramatic in my opinion.

As for answering the question scientifically, your average American wouldn't understand. An embryo meets ALL of the scientific qualifications for "life" towards the end of the first trimester, when the brain develops to the point that the embryo becomes capable of responding to you. One could also argue that an embryo is not alive until it develops primary sex characteristics, as before then, one could argue that it does not posses the capacity to reproduce.
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      09-03-2008, 04:29 PM   #7
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Quote:
Originally Posted by E82tt6 View Post
He didn't have a good answer, and said so directly instead of bullshitting? Wow, what a deceptive and excessively political statement.

The "voted for infantcide" claim is flawed. He voted against the bills in question because the laws on the books already covered the situations that the infantcide part of the bill, and he felt the rest of the bill was not wort voting for in his assessment. To say he has murder in his heart is a bit dramatic in my opinion.
Haven't researched this point in detail yet, but what I have heard described is that when he voted twice against it in Illinois, he wanted some changes made to the bill before he could support it. The bill (HR2175) that he voted against in the U.S. Senate had fixed all the things he had objected to in the Illinois bill. Fortunately Obama lost and the Born-Alive Infants Protection Act is law.
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Originally Posted by E82tt6 View Post
As for answering the question scientifically, your average American wouldn't understand. An embryo meets ALL of the scientific qualifications for "life" towards the end of the first trimester, when the brain develops to the point that the embryo becomes capable of responding to you. One could also argue that an embryo is not alive until it develops primary sex characteristics, as before then, one could argue that it does not posses the capacity to reproduce.
Once conception takes place, that fertilized egg is a unique human. If life didn't start until the ability to reproduce, then we could kill our kids until they reach puberty.
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      09-03-2008, 04:36 PM   #8
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Adolf Hittler didn't himself go to people's houses to kill the Jews.

Obama's Opposition to the Born Alive Infant Protection

IL Senate 2001

Senate Bill 1095, Born Alive Infant Protection Act
Voted "no" in the Senate Judiciary Committee (March 28, 2001)
Argued against the bill on the IL Senate floor (March 30, 2001) (see pp. 84-90 of this PDF)
Voted "present" for the bill (March 30, 2001)

IL Senate 2002

Senate Bill 1662, Born Alive Infant Protection Act
Voted "no" vote in the Senate Judiciary Committee (March 6, 2002)
Argued against the bill on the IL Senate floor (April 4, 2002) (see pp. 28-35 of this PDF)
Voted "no" for the bill (April 4, 2002)

IL Senate 2003

Senate Bill 1082, Born Alive Infant Protection Act
Obama, who chaired the Health and Human Services Committee, held the bill from receiving a committee vote and stopped the senator sponsor from adding the federal act's clarification paragraph, which made the bills absolutely identical.
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      09-03-2008, 04:58 PM   #9
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jill Stanek
Top 10 reasons Obama voted against the Illinois Born Alive Infant Protection Act
by Jill Stanek

Here are the top 10 reasons Barack Obama has variously stated why he voted against Illinois' Born Alive Infant Protection Act when state senator.

Here are the top 10 reasons Barack Obama has variously stated why he voted against Illinois' Born Alive Infant Protection Act when state senator.

10. Babies who survive their abortions are not protected by the Equal Protection Clause of the Constitution. Speaking against the Born Alive Infant Protection Act on the IL Senate floor on March 30, 2001, Obama, the sole verbal opponent to the bill stated:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Barack Obama
... I just want to suggest... that this is probably not going to survive constitutional scrutiny.

Number one, whenever we define a previable fetus as a person that is protected by the equal protection clause or the other elements in the Constitution, what we're really saying is, in fact, that they are persons that are entitled to the kinds of protections that would be provided to a - child, a nine-month-old - child that was delivered to term. That determination then, essentially, if it was accepted by a court, would forbid abortions to take place.

I mean, it - it would essentially bar abortions, because the equal protection clause does not allow somebody to kill a child, and if this is a child, then this would be an antiabortion statute. For that purpose, I think it would probably be found unconstitutional.
9. A ban to stop aborted babies from being shelved to die would be burdensome to their mothers. She alone should decide whether her baby lives or dies. Before voting "no" for a 2nd time in the Senate Judiciary Committee on March 5, 2002, Obama stated:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Barack Obama
What we are doing here is to create one more burden on women, and I can't support that.
During a speech at Benedictine University in October 2004, Obama said, according to the Illinois Leader, that "the decision concerning a baby should be left to a woman, but that he does not see himself as supportive of abortion."

8. Wanting to stop live aborted babies from being shelved to die was all about politics. During that same speech at Benedictine University, Obama said, according to the Illinois Leader, "the bill was unnecessary in Illinois and was introduced for political reasons."

7. There was no proof. Also during the Benedictine University speech, Obama said, according to the Illinois Leader, that "there was no documentation that hospitals were actually doing what was alleged in testimony presented before him in committee."

6. Aborting babies alive and letting them die is a doctor's prerogative. An Obama spokesman told the Chicago Tribune in August 2004 that Obama voted against Born Alive because it included provisions that "would have taken away from doctors their professional judgment when a fetus is viable."

5. Anyway, doctors don't do that. Obama told the Chicago Sun-Times in October 2004 he opposed Born Alive because "physicians are already required to use life-saving measures when fetuses are born alive during abortions."

4. Aborting babies alive and letting them die is a religious issue. During their U.S. Senate competition Alan Keyes famously said:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Alan Keyes
Christ would not stand idly by while an infant child in that situation died.... Christ would not vote for Barack Obama, because Barack Obama has voted to behave in a way that it is inconceivable for Christ to have behaved.
Obama has always mischaracterized Keyes' rationale for condemning Obama by implying Keyes was simply making a statement against Obama's pro-abortion position, which is untrue. Keyes pointedly stated he was condemning Obama for his support of infanticide.

Nevertheless, live birth abortion must be included in the list of procedures Obama condones. Obama responded first to Keyes by saying, as quoted in his July 10, 2006, USA Today op ed:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Barack Obama
... [W]e live in a pluralistic society, and that I can't impose my religious views on another.
3. Aborting babies alive and letting them die violates no universal principle. In the same USA Today piece, Obama said he reflected on that first answer, decided it was a "typically liberal response," and revised it:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Barack Obama
... But my opponent's accusations nagged at me.... If I am opposed to abortion for religious reasons but seek to pass a law banning the practice, I cannot simply point to the teachings of my church. I have to explain why abortion violates some principle that is accessible to people of all faiths, including those with no faith at all.
2. Sinking Born Alive was simply about political oneupsmanship. Obama has this quote on his website:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Barack Obama
Pam Sutherland, the president and CEO of the Illinois Planned Parenthood Council, told ABC News. "We worked with him specifically on his strategy. The Republicans were in control of the Illinois Senate at the time. They loved to hold votes on 'partial birth' and 'born alive'. They put these bills out all the time... because they wanted to pigeonhole Democrats...."
And the #1 reason Obama voted against the Born Alive Infant Protection Act was:

1. The IL Born Alive Infant Protection Act was a ploy to undercut Roe v. Wade. During a debate against Keyes in October 2004, Obama stated:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Barack Obama
Now, the bill that was put forward was essentially a way of getting around Roe vs. Wade.... At the federal level, there was a similar bill that passed because it had an amendment saying this does not encroach on Roe vs. Wade. I would have voted for that bill.
This was an out-and-out lie. The definition of "born alive" in the federal and Illinois versions were identical. The only difference came in paragraph (c), which was originally identical in both versions but changed on the federal level.

Illinois' paragraph (c): A live child born as a result of an abortion shall be fully recognized as a human person and accorded immediate protection under the law.

Federal paragraph (c): Nothing in this section shall be construed to affirm, deny, expand, or contract any legal status or legal right applicable to any member of the species homo sapiens at any point prior to being "born alive" as defined in this section.

When the senator sponsoring the IL bill tried to amend IL's paragraph (c)Amendment 1 below, to be the same as the federal paragraph (c), Barack Obama himself, as chairman of the committee hearing the bill, refused, and he then also killed the bill).

Barack Obama is gutter slime of the worst kind.
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      09-03-2008, 05:11 PM   #10
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him, palin & mccain have something in common...all 3 talk outta both sides of their mouths

but at least obama didn't kill176 sailors and sell his country out
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      09-03-2008, 09:25 PM   #11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by scottwww View Post
Once conception takes place, that fertilized egg is a unique human. If life didn't start until the ability to reproduce, then we could kill our kids until they reach puberty.
I'm not speaking about morality, I'm talking about the point where an embryo becomes a living thing by technical definition.

POTENTIAL to reproduce is on of these requirements, which is why I said what I did about primary sex characteristics.

As towards the end of the first trimester thing, one of hte fundamental criteria for something to be considered "alive" is the capacity to respond to stimuli.

Like I said, this is as technical as it gets, heh.
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      09-03-2008, 10:42 PM   #12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by E82tt6 View Post
I'm not speaking about morality, I'm talking about the point where an embryo becomes a living thing by technical definition.

POTENTIAL to reproduce is on of these requirements, which is why I said what I did about primary sex characteristics.

As towards the end of the first trimester thing, one of hte fundamental criteria for something to be considered "alive" is the capacity to respond to stimuli.

Like I said, this is as technical as it gets, heh.
Is there a specific time in a pregnancy or after birth that Barack Obama should be able to say that life begins?
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      09-03-2008, 10:48 PM   #13
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Quote:
Originally Posted by scottwww View Post
Is there a specific time in a pregnancy or after birth that Barack Obama should be able to say that life begins?
Beginning of conscious life is a continuum, IMHO. It doesn't have a clear-cut "moment in time".

Just like McCain going senile is a continuum. Remember Reagan?
We'll never know when he goes to wonderland...
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      09-03-2008, 11:03 PM   #14
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Quote:
Originally Posted by scottwww View Post
Is there a specific time in a pregnancy or after birth that Barack Obama should be able to say that life begins?
Yes. He should be able to say that life begins when the embryo is capable of responding to external stimuli. Before that point, it is not technically alive.
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      09-03-2008, 11:23 PM   #15
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oh yeah and he voted "present" 100 and sumthin times!!!! could decide between yes or no???HAHAHAHAHHAAAAA!!!!!!!!
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      09-04-2008, 12:00 AM   #16
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Quote:
Originally Posted by E82tt6 View Post
Yes. He should be able to say that life begins when the embryo is capable of responding to external stimuli. Before that point, it is not technically alive.
I guess that would mean that a live baby laying on a table would be alive? And maybe a baby that even if it were born so premature could live with help? Maybe even before that it would be considered that a life has begun?

When does Barack Obama actually consider that life begins? Based on his votes, apparently not even after it is born alive, or partially born.
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      09-04-2008, 01:22 AM   #17
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Quote:
Originally Posted by scottwww View Post
When does Barack Obama actually consider that life begins? Based on his votes, apparently not even after it is born alive, or partially born.
his votes? I think he would vote present. not yes, not no, just present.
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      09-04-2008, 02:20 AM   #18
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sayemthree View Post
his votes? I think he would vote present. not yes, not no, just present.
Anyone Who Thinks A Present Vote Is A “Duck” Doesn’t Understand How the Process Works. “There is a presumption, if one is not familiar with the mechanics of the General Assembly, that a present vote is a “duck.” Pam Sutherland, the CEO and President of Illinois Planned Parenthood said of [this] Hull argument: “I think it’s not well-based…I think it’s somebody who doesn’t understand how the legislative process works.” [Chicago Daily Herald, 3/10/04]

Criticizing Present Votes Indicates “You Don’t Have A Great Understanding Of The Process.” “‘Criticizing Obama on the basis of ‘present’ votes indicates you don’t have a great understanding of the process,’ said Thom Mannard, director of the Illinois Council Against Handgun Violence.” [Chicago Tribune, Zorn, 3/9/04]

Voting Present in the State Legislature is Used as A Signal to the Other Party, Not As a Way to Duck the Issue. “An aspect of Obama’s State Senate voting record that is drawing attention is his “present” votes. A present vote is a third option to an up or down “yes” or “no” that is used with great frequency in the Illinois General Assembly. It has many varied and nuanced meanings that, in the context of the actual bills, border on boring. It’s most important use is as a signal – to the other party, to the governor, to the sponsor – to show a willingness to compromise on the issue if not the exact bill, to show disapproval for one aspect of the bill, to question the constitutionality of the bill, to strengthen the bill. [Chicago Daily Herald, 3/10/04]
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      09-04-2008, 08:20 AM   #19
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BKsBimmer View Post
Anyone Who Thinks A Present Vote Is A “Duck” Doesn’t Understand How the Process Works. “There is a presumption, if one is not familiar with the mechanics of the General Assembly, that a present vote is a “duck.” Pam Sutherland, the CEO and President of Illinois Planned Parenthood said of [this] Hull argument: “I think it’s not well-based…I think it’s somebody who doesn’t understand how the legislative process works.” [Chicago Daily Herald, 3/10/04]

Criticizing Present Votes Indicates “You Don’t Have A Great Understanding Of The Process.” “‘Criticizing Obama on the basis of ‘present’ votes indicates you don’t have a great understanding of the process,’ said Thom Mannard, director of the Illinois Council Against Handgun Violence.” [Chicago Tribune, Zorn, 3/9/04]

Voting Present in the State Legislature is Used as A Signal to the Other Party, Not As a Way to Duck the Issue. “An aspect of Obama’s State Senate voting record that is drawing attention is his “present” votes. A present vote is a third option to an up or down “yes” or “no” that is used with great frequency in the Illinois General Assembly. It has many varied and nuanced meanings that, in the context of the actual bills, border on boring. It’s most important use is as a signal – to the other party, to the governor, to the sponsor – to show a willingness to compromise on the issue if not the exact bill, to show disapproval for one aspect of the bill, to question the constitutionality of the bill, to strengthen the bill. [Chicago Daily Herald, 3/10/04]
Thank you for posting this. So many just regurgitate soundbites without knowing the truth. Basically, voting present means "I want to vote for your bill because it has merit. Go back and clean it up and i will probably vote for it". I'm not sure how it got a bad rep because voting present actually helps get things done. Its not a sellout, its cooperation.
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      09-04-2008, 08:49 AM   #20
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lyndon_h View Post
Thank you for posting this. So many just regurgitate soundbites without knowing the truth. Basically, voting present means "I want to vote for your bill because it has merit. Go back and clean it up and i will probably vote for it". I'm not sure how it got a bad rep because voting present actually helps get things done. Its not a sellout, its cooperation.
Maybe in some cases. But consider post #9 in this thread. He voted present. He got the changes he required. Then he killed the bill. Present didn't mean anything more than trying to duck a vote that could work against him no matter which way he voted. He is a hack.


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      09-04-2008, 09:34 AM   #21
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Quote:
Originally Posted by E82tt6 View Post
I'm not speaking about morality, I'm talking about the point where an embryo becomes a living thing by technical definition.

POTENTIAL to reproduce is on of these requirements, which is why I said what I did about primary sex characteristics.

As towards the end of the first trimester thing, one of hte fundamental criteria for something to be considered "alive" is the capacity to respond to stimuli.

Like I said, this is as technical as it gets, heh.

It's very difficult for me to understand how people try to convince themselves that the definition of "human life" is anything other than simple. I respect that people really do have a hard time with it, but I don't understand it. Arguing over "consciousness" or "viability" or "responsiveness" just doesn't make a lick of sense at all to me.

When sperm meets egg, three things are true. First, there is LIFE in the biological sense. Second, it (really he/she) is HUMAN in the species sense. Third, he/she is DISTINCT in the genetic sense (and thus NOT just a "part of a woman's body"). These are all facts that a lot of people want to deny. I am honestly very confuseed as to why people even try to justify destroying a DISTINCT HUMAN LIFE. It makes my heart heavy to think about it.
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      09-04-2008, 09:43 AM   #22
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Gamecock9901 View Post
It's very difficult for me to understand how people try to convince themselves that the definition of "human life" is anything other than simple. I respect that people really do have a hard time with it, but I don't understand it. Arguing over "consciousness" or "viability" or "responsiveness" just doesn't make a lick of sense at all to me.

When sperm meets egg, three things are true. First, there is LIFE in the biological sense. Second, it (really he/she) is HUMAN in the species sense. Third, he/she is DISTINCT in the genetic sense (and thus NOT just a "part of a woman's body"). These are all facts that a lot of people want to deny. I am honestly very confuseed as to why people even try to justify destroying a DISTINCT HUMAN LIFE. It makes my heart heavy to think about it.
So true.
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