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      09-15-2008, 08:45 PM   #67
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Based upon this the M3 DCT is on a par with the E55 AMG

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      10-13-2008, 02:11 AM   #68
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that video makes me questionable too but i can see that its a fair race- in the idea that both of them put in the same effort. some people say that the dct was in the right gear, ready to go while the amg had to go through kick down. maybe.. who knows.

all i can say is that the c63 vs m3 drag race is the question of the year and i am still super curious as to which one is quicker. HOPEfully, someone can post some legit videos up. im almost positive it will get a crapload of attention from forums elsewhere too.
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      10-13-2008, 08:54 AM   #69
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Quote:
Originally Posted by a burrito View Post
that video makes me questionable too but i can see that its a fair race- in the idea that both of them put in the same effort. some people say that the dct was in the right gear, ready to go while the amg had to go through kick down. maybe.. who knows.

all i can say is that the c63 vs m3 drag race is the question of the year and i am still super curious as to which one is quicker. HOPEfully, someone can post some legit videos up. im almost positive it will get a crapload of attention from forums elsewhere too.
I don't get the kickdown arguement. Its an automatic. So if it did have to kick down whenever you wanted to apply the power, wouldn't this be a regular occurance? If so, then that is just part of the C63's speed. You have to allow for the kickdown, thus making it slower.

To argue this any other way would be saying the transmission is sloppy in the C63.
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      10-13-2008, 10:28 AM   #70
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Quote:
Originally Posted by UltimateBMW View Post
I don't get the kickdown arguement. Its an automatic. So if it did have to kick down whenever you wanted to apply the power, wouldn't this be a regular occurance? If so, then that is just part of the C63's speed. You have to allow for the kickdown, thus making it slower.

To argue this any other way would be saying the transmission is sloppy in the C63.
Disagree.

I don't know if the guy in the Merc auto was in "D" at the time (if so, (s)he was woefully ignorant of how it's done), but since one can control what gear you want, even in an auto, (s)he should've been in the correct gear, and the kickdown argument is therefore a real one.

If an M3 driver left the DCT in full automatic mode in a roll-on drag race, would you say the M3 automatic was sloppy because it had to kick down?

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      10-15-2008, 03:47 AM   #71
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mixja View Post
Based upon this the M3 DCT is on a par with the E55 AMG

Here is the DCT vs the E55:

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      10-15-2008, 07:20 AM   #72
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Looking at both videos (E55 vs C63 and E55 vs M3 DCT) you get the impression that the M3 get a disastrous start compared to the C63 but holds station as the speed increased, where as the C63 holds the E55 at the start but then loses ground as the speed increases.

I don't know what to make of either of these races to decide which (C63 or M3) is really the quickest. There is little doubt looks at it from what is seen that the C63 performs to better but that's disregarding the very poor start by the M3 on this occasion.

A bit like the M3 DCT vs C63 race where the Mercedes got an equally poor start.

P.S.
I see this M3 DCT has a Kelleners ECU & exhaust which gives an extra 40hp over stock. Not exactly a true reflection of whether a stock M3 will work with a stock C63.

Last edited by footie; 10-15-2008 at 07:46 AM.
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      10-18-2008, 06:04 AM   #73
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Quote:
Originally Posted by footie View Post

P.S.
I see this M3 DCT has a Kelleners ECU & exhaust which gives an extra 40hp over stock. Not exactly a true reflection of whether a stock M3 will work with a stock C63.
I thought the DCT only had an exhaust?
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      10-18-2008, 07:05 AM   #74
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Originally Posted by mixja View Post
I thought the DCT only had an exhaust?
I'm surmizing that the M3 DCT which raced the E55 is one and the same as the one which raced the RS4.

[u2b]OdHRAsFJV7E&feature=user[/u2b]

Maybe there was two identical M3 AW DCT with Hartge exhausts, but one happened to have an ECU chip. Highly unlikely.

If this IS one and the same, then every race which has been seen against the C63, E55 and RS4 are not a true reflection of how a stock M3 will fare against any of them and might explain some of the differences seen in other videos from other sources.
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      10-18-2008, 01:51 PM   #75
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Quote:
Originally Posted by footie View Post
I'm surmizing that the M3 DCT which raced the E55 is one and the same as the one which raced the RS4.

Maybe there was two identical M3 AW DCT with Hartge exhausts, but one happened to have an ECU chip. Highly unlikely.

If this IS one and the same, then every race which has been seen against the C63, E55 and RS4 are not a true reflection of how a stock M3 will fare against any of them and might explain some of the differences seen in other videos from other sources.
Good observation but another simple explanation would be that some mods in the M3 are newer than others and that the full state of tune was accurately reported by the owners and m5board.
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      10-18-2008, 03:30 PM   #76
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Originally Posted by swamp2 View Post
Good observation but another simple explanation would be that some mods in the M3 are newer than others and that the full state of tune was accurately reported by the owners and m5board.
I don't know swamp. I honestly thought that all of these recent races were conducted on one event be it over one day or one weekend, hardly time to do an addition mod but you never know.

Maybe TB can pipe in here as he in well up on M5Board events and Gustav.

P.S.
This observation is to highlight the fact that not all you see can be taken at face value, an extra 40hp to an M3 would make a huge difference to it's already incredible performance.
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      10-18-2008, 04:14 PM   #77
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Quote:
Originally Posted by footie View Post
I don't know swamp. I honestly thought that all of these recent races were conducted on one event be it over one day or one weekend, hardly time to do an addition mod but you never know.

Maybe TB can pipe in here as he in well up on M5Board events and Gustav.

P.S.
This observation is to highlight the fact that not all you see can be taken at face value, an extra 40hp to an M3 would make a huge difference to it's already incredible performance.
Like I said your observation is completely possible but is PRESUMES a dishonest owner and/or dishonesty on behalf of m5board. It would be terrible if true.

Also as a side note do you think software and an exhaust alone can really provide 40 hp? Personally I seriously doubt that. PG has obtained about 35 hp at the wheels from pulleys, CAI and software.
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      10-18-2008, 04:23 PM   #78
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Quote:
Originally Posted by footie View Post
I don't know swamp. I honestly thought that all of these recent races were conducted on one event be it over one day or one weekend, hardly time to do an addition mod but you never know.

Maybe TB can pipe in here as he in well up on M5Board events and Gustav.

P.S.
This observation is to highlight the fact that not all you see can be taken at face value, an extra 40hp to an M3 would make a huge difference to it's already incredible performance.

Honestly, there is too much thinking at these events.


People show up and run what they "brung". It could be anything and if a driver fouls up, it shows but a driver mistake is forever immortalized as one car beating up another.

I honestly believe the winners of the race were the real winners but it takes repeated runs to make the same conclusions about the cars.
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      10-18-2008, 04:41 PM   #79
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Quote:
Originally Posted by swamp2 View Post
Like I said your observation is completely possible but is PRESUMES a dishonest owner and/or dishonesty on behalf of m5board. It would be terrible if true.

Also as a side note do you think software and an exhaust alone can really provide 40 hp? Personally I seriously doubt that. PG has obtained about 35 hp at the wheels from pulleys, CAI and software.
Totally misunderstood what I was meaning with this statement. I was not trying to say that either the owner or M5Board were being dishonest, it was more the fact that too many people view these races believing that every car they see are stock, like theirs from the manufacturer and it's not always the case. If this is the same M3 which raced the C63 then it would help explain why it was performing better than expected.

Also the 40hp gain is what Kelleners quote for an ECU+exhaust upgrade on their website. Whether it's a true reflection or pure marketing I honestly don't know, maybe someone with experience of their products can speak now.

T Bone,

Your comments didn't really enlighten us as to whether these recent videos are from one event or not, if yes then the chances of having two M3 with Hartge exhausts and both being AW are very slim don't you think.
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      10-19-2008, 02:37 AM   #80
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Quote:
Originally Posted by T Bone View Post
...it takes repeated runs to make the same conclusions about the cars.
+10. And the CLOSER the cars are matched the MORE runs it takes to really see any true differences.
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      10-19-2008, 05:12 AM   #81
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Originally Posted by swamp2 View Post
+10. And the CLOSER the cars are matched the MORE runs it takes to really see any true differences.
Neither this nor T Bone's comments are addressing the observation of mine. And without any answer to this everyone must take the same opinion of mine, that the white M3 DCT coupe which raced all the other cars was tuned and gives a false reflection of how capable an M3 is against these rivals.
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      10-19-2008, 01:23 PM   #82
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Quote:
Originally Posted by footie View Post
Neither this nor T Bone's comments are addressing the observation of mine. And without any answer to this everyone must take the same opinion of mine, that the white M3 DCT coupe which raced all the other cars was tuned and gives a false reflection of how capable an M3 is against these rivals.
Yes, we were on a side point, that is still allowed isn't it?

And a huge NO on two accounts, not everyone has to agree with you and I certainly don't. As I stated previosuly....

The car with both software and exhaust very well could have been tested with just the exhaust either before the software was installed or perhaps after it was removed.

To believe your proposition REQUIRES either a dishonest owner and/or m5board.com being dishonest.

Look I am not saying that it is not a possibility. IMO a DCT M3 and C63 AMG should be closer than the m5board.com video we have all seen. However, calling it certainty or unanimous is rubbish.
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      10-19-2008, 02:16 PM   #83
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Originally Posted by swamp2 View Post
Yes, we were on a side point, that is still allowed isn't it?

And a huge NO on two accounts, not everyone has to agree with you and I certainly don't. As I stated previosuly....
Swamp, may be not everyone will agree with me on this, but to expect two white M3 with the same exhaust present on both at an event held over possibly two days is highly unlikely.

Quote:
Originally Posted by swamp2 View Post
The car with both software and exhaust very well could have been tested with just the exhaust either before the software was installed or perhaps after it was removed.
Like wise if this is one in the same car the chances of it to have the software on one race and not the other is again highly unlikely.

Quote:
Originally Posted by swamp2 View Post
To believe your proposition REQUIRES either a dishonest owner and/or m5board.com being dishonest.
NO, that is not what I am saying here. Most likely it's a typo, someone forgetting to include all of the mods before putting it on Youtube, that's all.

Quote:
Originally Posted by swamp2 View Post
Look I am not saying that it is not a possibility. IMO a DCT M3 and C63 AMG should be closer than the m5board.com video we have all seen. However, calling it certainty or unanimous is rubbish.
Agreed, and that is my point with pressing this point home. The fact that this maybe the very car which raced the C63 and had an extra 40hp as the tuning manufacturer quotes then it's easier to believe this M3 beating the C63 in the way it did.

Point is that without all of the info on either car in any race you can't always take the view that what you see is a true reflection of stock vs stock. Magazine reviews are by far and large the best indication of how a true race should end up.
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      10-19-2008, 05:42 PM   #84
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Quote:
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NO, that is not what I am saying here. Most likely it's a typo, someone forgetting to include all of the mods before putting it on Youtube, that's all.
I'll disagree here. There is no such thing as a video produced by m5board (as you can clearly see these were) which leaves out car mods in the introductory text which can also be called a "typo". It is possible someone "forgot" but that is about as likely as raining frogs. When cars are modified it is reported, we have seen this in many videos from m5board. T Bone: You should use your contacts in the M5 world or with Gustav and try to settle this little debate.
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      10-19-2008, 06:16 PM   #85
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Quote:
Originally Posted by swamp2 View Post
I'll disagree here. There is no such thing as a video produced by m5board (as you can clearly see these were) which leaves out car mods in the introductory text which can also be called a "typo". It is possible someone "forgot" but that is about as likely as raining frogs. When cars are modified it is reported, we have seen this in many videos from m5board. T Bone: You should use your contacts in the M5 world or with Gustav and try to settle this little debate.

I sent a note to Gustav and Just_Me.
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      10-19-2008, 06:30 PM   #86
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Here is Gustav's reply to me by PM on M5board about this thread:

"Yes, the white M3 has a Kelleners exhaust and Hartge ECU. It have had that on all the runs what I know of.

I write what the owners state what they have for modifcation at the time of the event. Not from tuners or manufacturers claim but the OWNERS claim of their modification and gain.

I dont know the gains of what these produce, but what Ive heard from a stock M3 owner DKG he said it did between 1-2 carlengths fro m20 to around 140 mph.

We never tried it vs stock but a total gain of more than 10-20 HP I would not find beleivable.

Gustav"
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      10-19-2008, 06:43 PM   #87
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Great, a fast and easy resolution. Thanks TB!

Footie: Your guess was correct and mine wrong. Of course I still don't concede your guess was better or more probable! The owner lied or ommitted his state of tune and this clearly helped the M3 outperform the C63.

We all still very much want to see some M-DCT M3 STOCK vs. C63!
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      10-20-2008, 05:07 AM   #88
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Great, a fast and easy resolution. Thanks TB!

Footie: Your guess was correct and mine wrong. Of course I still don't concede your guess was better or more probable! The owner lied or ommitted his state of tune and this clearly helped the M3 outperform the C63.

We all still very much want to see some M-DCT M3 STOCK vs. C63!
I wasn't trying to discredit M5Board on this. Only to highlight that such events are only a very rough guage of how two cars should perform out on the street against each other.

I keep insisting that based on all the other evidence from magazines which have tested both the C63 and M3 M-DCT there was no logical reason why the M3 should have won and by the margin it did.

As for the output advantage of the ECU+exhaust, I was only using the manufacturers claims for this upgrade. Whether it's 20hp or 40hp, the fact remains that the car isn't stock and it's hp/torque curve will be different than stock.
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