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      09-01-2008, 11:32 PM   #1
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C63 vs. DCT E92 M3 50-250 km/h

m5board shootout

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CnRgTM4qvKM
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      09-01-2008, 11:41 PM   #2
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Nice... I thought it would have been a much closer race and C63 AMG winning but it was the other way around!!! ( SPOILER ).

M-DCT FTMFW!!!
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      09-02-2008, 12:00 AM   #3
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After witnessing the other races involving the E93 M3 vs C63 and the E93 M3 vs E92 M3 (both M-DCT), I can't help thinking this is total BS.

The C63 should/would have won that race, I'm guessing something happen.
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      09-02-2008, 01:13 AM   #4
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Quote:
Originally Posted by footie View Post
After witnessing the other races involving the E93 M3 vs C63 and the E93 M3 vs E92 M3 (both M-DCT), I can't help thinking this is total BS.

The C63 should/would have won that race, I'm guessing something happen.
No, the DCT is just that much faster than the manual basically bridging the gap between the manual and the C63.

This car also had Hartge exhaust.

From personal experience I have pulled many cars so far that a manual would not / should not have been able to, the DCT is fast.
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      09-02-2008, 01:25 AM   #5
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Looks a bit suspicious to me.

First and foremost why can't we get this test, bare bones stock to bare bones stock? Secondly, this race absolutely should have been closer. The DCT shift times and gear ratios should make it about neck and neck with the C63. Walking away like that just is not consistent with simulations, comparisons, calculations nor other test results.
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      09-02-2008, 01:26 AM   #6
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Quote:
Originally Posted by footie View Post
After witnessing the other races involving the E93 M3 vs C63 and the E93 M3 vs E92 M3 (both M-DCT), I can't help thinking this is total BS.

The C63 should/would have won that race, I'm guessing something happen.
+1
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      09-02-2008, 02:22 AM   #7
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Quote:
Originally Posted by swamp2 View Post
Looks a bit suspicious to me.

First and foremost why can't we get this test, bare bones stock to bare bones stock? Secondly, this race absolutely should have been closer. The DCT shift times and gear ratios should make it about neck and neck with the C63. Walking away like that just is not consistent with simulations, comparisons, calculations nor other test results.
From a roll it does not surprise me to see the M win.

I ran an E63 the other day and I pulled from a roll, but not like in this video. If the guy got the Hartge exhaust it is possible there were other things, also he is running higher octane and without charcoal filters that are in the US cars I presume.
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      09-02-2008, 04:27 AM   #8
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The M3 DCT looked like it got the jump, although not by much - if the C63 got the jump, the race would have been a lot closer...

From memory the same M3 DCT Coupe easily beat the same C63 from a standing start (comment made by C63 driver in relation to earlier posted E93 M3 DCT race).

Looks to me like a ringer M3 DCT beat a clanger C63 AMG - I'd bet there are faster C63s out there and slower M3 DCTs...all in all I think it's fair to say the M3 DCT Coupe/Sedan and C63 are very evenly matched when it comes to drag racing...
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      09-02-2008, 06:04 AM   #9
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This M3 with DCT has Hartge exhaust and gives another 20 hp.
Compare to standard M3 DCT , this tuned M3 is around one car length faster.
The C63 driver even admitted he lost the race.

Quote from the MB driver over at mbworld.org:
"I know the convertable is slower than the coupe, but itīs a nice victory anyways!

I lost against a DKG Coupe the samt day, but it wasnīt filmed.

That Coupe was crazy-fast but I was told it had been tuned a bit..."

Alex


Yes it was filmed and its the video you just seen.
Fact: Stock vs Stock, M3 DCT and C63 are very close in performance.

M5 E60 beated both C63 and M3 DCT.

Both drivers did their best, there is no cheat going on here. You race what you can and got.
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      09-02-2008, 07:36 AM   #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Just_me View Post
This M3 with DCT has Hartge exhaust and gives another 20 hp.
Compare to standard M3 DCT , this tuned M3 is around one car length faster.
The C63 driver even admitted he lost the race.

Quote from the MB driver over at mbworld.org:
"I know the convertable is slower than the coupe, but itīs a nice victory anyways!

I lost against a DKG Coupe the samt day, but it wasnīt filmed.

That Coupe was crazy-fast but I was told it had been tuned a bit..."

Alex


Yes it was filmed and its the video you just seen.
Fact: Stock vs Stock, M3 DCT and C63 are very close in performance.

M5 E60 beated both C63 and M3 DCT.

Both drivers did their best, there is no cheat going on here. You race what you can and got.
One length of difference from stock vs one with 20hp more does sound about right. But this same car raced the E93 M3 with DCT and the distance it won by would have been roughly the same as what the C63 won against the same 93 M3. Here's all three video to compare against.

[u2b]ovHHPHgdVtw&feature=user[/u2b][u2b]TgIT-5_D9jU&feature=user[/u2b]

M5Board events videos showing their consistency.

P.S.
As T Bone is such a defender of that videos and tests I would like his opinion on this.
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      09-02-2008, 08:34 AM   #11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by footie View Post
One length of difference from stock vs one with 20hp more does sound about right. But this same car raced the E93 M3 with DCT and the distance it won by would have been roughly the same as what the C63 won against the same 93 M3. Here's all three video to compare against.



P.S.
As T Bone is such a defender of that videos and tests I would like his opinion on this.
I've been on almost every m5board.com event myself.
There is no cheat, there are no bribes. Every driver make their best to win the races. M5board.com do not pay others to loose.
You can't blame m5board.com or Gustav for the different outcomes. What you see is what happens. Only thing you can blame on are the drivers and the cars, not m5board.com.

And for those who complain, do your own races and tests and bring the camera. Talking is easy, filming the races seem to be harder.
People should be happy there are videos to watch becuase seeing these cars races on the streets is rare sight.

In this race the C63 lost, fair and square, the M3 was faster than the C63 that day.


And this is M3post with many members around the world, I'm very surprised there arent many racingvideos beeing filmed. Bring on the cameras and show us a results that differs from m5board.com. I'm eager to see videos with different result than m5board.com. Until that happens, the C63 got raped by this tuned M3 without any bribes being involved.
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      09-02-2008, 09:17 AM   #12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by swamp2 View Post
Looks a bit suspicious to me.

First and foremost why can't we get this test, bare bones stock to bare bones stock? Secondly, this race absolutely should have been closer. The DCT shift times and gear ratios should make it about neck and neck with the C63. Walking away like that just is not consistent with simulations, comparisons, calculations nor other test results.
+1. It would have been nice to see stock vs. stock.
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      09-02-2008, 09:55 AM   #13
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Just Me,

OK, fair enough. The event holders aren't to blame but there is no way that this result is a true reflection of what will happen 99 times out of 100, there is too much evidence to say that even with an exhaust mod on the M3 the C63 would still win that race. What we have here is an exception to the rule.

That is why I insist on better proof when someone uses these video as 'matter of fact'. The same thing applies to Quattro vs rwd, auto vs manual, turbo vs N/A, the results can and do vary and that is the only real fact we can be sure of.
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      09-02-2008, 12:26 PM   #14
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Quote:
Originally Posted by footie View Post
Just Me,

OK, fair enough. The event holders aren't to blame but there is no way that this result is a true reflection of what will happen 99 times out of 100, there is too much evidence to say that even with an exhaust mod on the M3 the C63 would still win that race. What we have here is an exception to the rule.
Until I'm proved differently I say you are wrong IMO stock vs stock it will be close race depending who gets the best start I say it will be a dead race.

Oh btw I drove a C63 AMG a couple of days ago. I liked the seats and that the gearbox reacted instantly when kickdown. But after the drive I'm convinced the M3 is still number one, at least for me.

--------------------------------------------
Again, message for everyone, instead of guessing who will win, grab the videocamera and show me a different result. I can't rely on just talk and guesses.
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      09-02-2008, 12:40 PM   #15
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Quote:
Originally Posted by footie View Post
Just Me,

OK, fair enough. The event holders aren't to blame but there is no way that this result is a true reflection of what will happen 99 times out of 100, there is too much evidence to say that even with an exhaust mod on the M3 the C63 would still win that race. What we have here is an exception to the rule.

That is why I insist on better proof when someone uses these video as 'matter of fact'. The same thing applies to Quattro vs rwd, auto vs manual, turbo vs N/A, the results can and do vary and that is the only real fact we can be sure of.

Footie, you keep implying there is cheating or deliberate favoring of BMW on the M5board videos. In addition to Just_me, who is a moderator on M5board, there are members of this board who have run at these events.

Members like Per and a couple of others.....

They will also confirm there is not favoritism or cheating or collusion.

Drop the issue, you lose credibility when you imply cheating.
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      09-02-2008, 01:57 PM   #16
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Just_me View Post
Until I'm proved differently I say you are wrong IMO stock vs stock it will be close race depending who gets the best start I say it will be a dead race.

Oh btw I drove a C63 AMG a couple of days ago. I liked the seats and that the gearbox reacted instantly when kickdown. But after the drive I'm convinced the M3 is still number one, at least for me.
Maybe you are right and it's closer than I think, but based on what I know and their respective PTW figures I would still believe the M3 will always be the one chasing the C63 down and not the other way round as this video shows.

BTW, I am totally in love with my M3, more than I would have imagined.

Quote:
Originally Posted by T Bone
Footie, you keep implying there is cheating or deliberate favoring of BMW on the M5board videos. In addition to Just_me, who is a moderator on M5board, there are members of this board who have run at these events.

Members like Per and a couple of others.....

They will also confirm there is not favoritism or cheating or collusion.

Drop the issue, you lose credibility when you imply cheating.
TB,

Missing the point again. You have insisted that these videos prove Quattro is inferior to rwd but here in this video of the C63 vs M3 DCT proves how unreliable such a source can be, I complied all the videos with the 3 cars in question and the results are conflicting to say the least.

My credibility isn't the thing in question, it's your insistence as using it as a source of anti-Quattro propaganda.
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      09-02-2008, 02:00 PM   #17
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Nice one baby! I always suspected that the E92 DCT would win from a roll.
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      09-02-2008, 02:04 PM   #18
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Quote:
Originally Posted by footie View Post
TB,

Missing the point again. You have insisted that these videos prove Quattro is inferior to rwd but here in this video of the C63 vs M3 DCT proves how unreliable such a source can be, I complied all the videos with the 3 cars in question and the results are conflicting to say the least.

My credibility isn't the thing in question, it's your insistence as using it as a source of anti-Quattro propaganda.

No my friend, I didn't raise Quattro here. MB / Audi and BMW fans all have issues with specific races but like all races they specific issues.

In this case, the C63 lost......feel free to attribute this to driver / traction issues but not the whole M5board video effort.

BTW, You pointed to 3 videos versus numerous videos where the RS4 loses.
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      09-02-2008, 03:23 PM   #19
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I'm guessing this was what happened.. driver mistake.

The M3 was at 6K rpm ready to drop the hammer and the C63 was probably flooring it, it kicked down, and then in manual mode and forgot to shift causing this big gap to happen, numbers don't lie IMO, No person's opinion's on what happened can change that.

Also, this is just my opinion...
The M3 Coupe vs Convert shows how much weight slowed the Conv down, maybe 5-6 cars. But when you saw the C63 vs E93 Conv video, you notice that the C63 KILLS IT by way more?

So cliffnotes: E92 kills E93 by 5-6 cars, C63 kills E93 by 10-15 cars, therefore IMHO opinion I really think kickdown and missing a gear played a role here.

What do you guys think?
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      09-02-2008, 04:09 PM   #20
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I enjoy the M5board videos and contributions. I absolutely have never believed that there is any fixing/cheating. It is a great resource and I certainly appreciate the efforts of those who organize the event. Thank you.

That being said when some cars are as closely matched as they are such as M3, C63, RS4, IS-F, you can only expect to see natural variations and I firmly believe the variations we see are mostly driver related, mostly skill and their ability to start in a totally fair way. Secondary variations are from car to car and modding variations. Statistics and many repeated runs would really help, it is so easy to NOT nail things perfectly.

Either way, seeing a M-DCT M3 with exhaust only pull like that on the big bad C63 is pretty cool.
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      09-02-2008, 05:45 PM   #21
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Quote:
Originally Posted by swamp2 View Post
I enjoy the M5board videos and contributions. I absolutely have never believed that there is any fixing/cheating. It is a great resource and I certainly appreciate the efforts of those who organize the event. Thank you.

That being said when some cars are as closely matched as they are such as M3, C63, RS4, IS-F, you can only expect to see natural variations and I firmly believe the variations we see are mostly driver related, mostly skill and their ability to start in a totally fair way. Secondary variations are from car to car and modding variations. Statistics and many repeated runs would really help, it is so easy to NOT nail things perfectly.

Either way, seeing a M-DCT M3 with exhaust only pull like that on the big bad C63 is pretty cool.
Totally agree with you swamp,

I know I have been very harsh with my opinions on the subject of M5Board videos but this has only come about through comments from T Bone, using it as gospel when everything about their evidence is circumstantial. The same applies with this M3 vs C63 video, on this occasion the M3 won but the reality is that 9 out of 10 times the Merc would win, the stats tell us so and as you know they seldom lie when all other things are equal. That is why magazine results have more of a bearing than some amateurs having a race side by side. Mag results are conducted in a controlled environment as possible, they do numerous runs the get the best results and post the best one.

My only problem with an uncontrolled event like the M5Board ones that you have to take at face value what the owners said their cars are, be it stock or tuned and how much they are producing. If the result looks to one sided then chances are there is something has either happened or someone is telling porkies about their car.

They are pure entertainment, nothing else. If we can all agree on this then we can finally put this argument to bed.
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      09-02-2008, 05:51 PM   #22
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As I was always an owner of a BMW and getting the C63 AMG soon. I went through some of the videos they have. They might not cheat, but one thing is for sure, the videos are not consistent. Check the video of THIS coupe vs the conv M3 and the C63 vs the conv. It is not possible for the coupe to pull on the C63.

On another note, I am going to show you all the inconsistencies (on this board) in the videos I saved.
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