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      08-31-2008, 05:04 PM   #1
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Talking Just test drove the E92 M3 and C63 AMG back-to-back.

This is my own review of the C63 AMG vs. E92 M3.

E92 M3 Writeup
I came to my local friendly dealership yesterday and asked a good friend of mine to test drive a new M3 coupe. 10 minutes later I hear a nice rumble outside and what do I see?.. an 08' Melbourne Red E92 M3. Everything I was hoping for in options I got in the car, so I laid it all out on the table, great looking interior but a little bland compared to the 335i as I am paying a lot of money extra and I don't really get all my money's worth comparing the interiors of the 335i and M3 but the steering wheel felt great and so did the paddles. While the motor was sitting there warming up, I start looking at the RPM gauge and admiring the 8400RPM limit and how elegantly the engine rpm limiter is slowing nearing and getting closer to it's advertised 8400RPM as it's warming up, and finally.. everything is set to my standards. I set the transmission to S5 and although S6 wasn't available I was fine with it. I set the EDC to Sport PLUS, pressed the POWER button, and was ready for flight.
Also to mention, there were 3 of us in the car.

I pulled out of the parking lot, checked my side mirrors and rode the car to about 5K in first and slammed the pedal to the floor, and my face just got slammed back against the comfortable headrest, I switch to 2nd gear at around 8300RPM and get the neck-snapping jolt of the amazing DCT transmission as it changes gears and continues to throw me back in my seat. After the adrenaline rush, we take a turn and were on to some curvy roads up ahead and let me tell you, the car handles insane. I had excellent response in the corners, the car just held up in every corner I threw it in, in short I put the car through it's paces.

After the exciting mountain-carving session we just had, we had to take it on the highway. It was quiet and nimble, overtaking other cars was a snap, and the sound system was great.

After the drive I reviewed it personally and came up with some pro's and con's of my own.

Cons:
-Low torque - Due to being used to 335i probably.
-Seats need more support IMO.
-Needs a louder exhaust.

Now, these are my opinions but the exhaust issue I had to talk about as I can hear the the motor but the exhaust is hard to hear in the mix of giving it some throttle.

Pros:
-Great responsive motor
-Comfortable and quiet
-Handles like it's on rails.

And that's my review of the E92 M3 and here are the options and specs for some of you that might ask.

Options of E92 M3
Melbourne Red
Comfort Access
Technology Package
M-DCT
19" wheels
Upgraded Audio
Black Novillo Leather

Stats of E92 M3
Power - 414 bhp / 311 KW @ 8300 rpm
Torque - 295 ft lbs / 400 Nm @ 3900 rpm
BHP/Liter - 104 bhp / liter
Power to weight - 0.25 bhp / kg
Top Speed - 155 mph
0-60 mph - 4.2-4.3 sec

Now onto the C63 AMG..

C63 AMG Writeup
As I park in the local MB dealer, I spot a Mars Red C63 with the full Performance Package, Navigation, and leather package, and the Carbon Fiber package and I get in the showroom and after some debate with one of the Salespeople, he decides to let me test drive it. I got excited as I remember to all the videos and sound clips I heard of the C63 exhaust, sitting there patiently, he comes back with the keys and continues to put them in the ignition and start up the car.. my next thoughts were . The sound was unimaginable, it was so throaty and insane sounding I couldn't believe it. He was driving it out of the show room as I continue to just look at the car, noticing the side vents in the front bumper, the "6.3 AMG" badge on the side of the car, the front and rear flares and especially the sound. He finally parks the car and makes his way to me and tells me to get in the driver side with an evil grin on his face. First thing I notice is the steering wheel, I like the design of it better than the M3 but the M3 steering wheel was slightly thicker and felt better. The seats though, no comparison they absolutely one of the best seats I have ever sat in, easily besting the M3's by a wide margin. Interior was great and had plenty of nice touches including the Navi pop-up, and the memory card storage in the middle of the dash.

Now onto the drive, as I sit there waiting to make the turn I hear the V8 rumble and was getting jittery as I was waiting to see what these car could do. Traffic clears, I switch it to Sport mode and gun it from 1st at around 2K rpm, the acceleration was unreal and absolutely mad. It changes gears quickly, although not as fast as the M3, and I go into 2nd and next thing I know I was going faster than a bat out of hell. I love the sound of the exhaust as well and as we turned into some mountain roads, I instantly though of the well-renown handling as being sorta crappy, but as I take the first corner, the first thought was "This is weird, the car is actually holds in the corners!". Don't get me wrong, the M3 handles better, but this car easily handles GREAT. I turn back as the salesperson didn't want me to put too many miles on it and drive casually back. I started noticing how quiet the car ride is, but at the same time very firm and not that soft, so that was another thumbs up and then after the small test drive, I turn back into the dealer and park the car, after some small talk I leave the dealership. I start thinking of what I should get because of my lease running out in July 09'.

After driving it thoroughly and seeing what it can do I came up with a small list of pro's and con's.

Cons:
-No free maintainence
-Gas guzzler, although the M3 is too but this is slightly more.
-Sometimes rides a little too firm.

Pros:
-Great sound and crazy acceleration.
-Comfortable and handles great.
-Cheaper than a comparably equipped M3 Sedan if I don't include the CF package.

That's my review of the C63 AMG and here are some specs and the options I had.

Options of C63 AMG
Mars Red
Carbon Fiber Package
Leather Package
Performance Package
Premium Package 1 & 2

Stats of C63 AMG
Power - 457 bhp / 341 KW @ 6800 rpm
Torque - 443 ft lbs / 600 Nm @ 5000 rpm
BHP/Liter - 74 bhp / liter
Power to weight - 0.26 bhp / kg
Top Speed - 176 mph with limiter, not drag limited
0-60 mph - 3.8-4.0 s

Conclusion
The M3 if you are strictly tracking your car, but the C63 is just better when it comes to get groceries, and just driving around town as you have a lot of torque and don't need to change gears at all. At this point I think I have my eyes set on getting a C63 but we will all see next year when the time comes..

So my decision is C63 AMG>M3 in daily driving and what I do with it.

And that's my review!
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      08-31-2008, 06:25 PM   #2
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Yep...pretty much my thoughts after I drove both, too. I do track though, so I wound up ith the M.
Good luck,
tomK
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      08-31-2008, 07:37 PM   #3
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Great write up.

I test drove both, and came up with the exact same conclusion and put my deposit on the C63 for a Jan. '09 build.

Look wise, which do you prefer? Personally I love the aggressive look of the C63.
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      08-31-2008, 07:43 PM   #4
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Definitely see advantages to ordering vs. buying test driven cars off the lot. Nice balanced review. Although the cars are in the same segment, their main qualities do appeal to different priorities.
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      09-01-2008, 08:48 PM   #5
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I prefer the coupe M3 over the sedan. So for me it's lookwise.. C63=E92 M3 lookswise.

But C63>>>>E90 M3.
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      09-01-2008, 11:42 PM   #6
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http://www.m3post.com/forums/showthread.php?t=167955

WIth M-DCT, it will be a very close race
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      09-02-2008, 03:27 PM   #7
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Yea i have seen that video and fail to believe it, we need a video of what happened in the C63, I think that the C63 kicked out in manual mode when he floored and forgot to shift.

The M3 Coupe vs Convert shows how much weight slowed the Conv down, maybe 5-6 cars. But when you saw the C63 vs E93 Conv video, you notice that the C63 KILLS IT by way more?
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      09-03-2008, 01:23 AM   #8
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The result of the video does not surprise me. Tonight I drove both back to back , and the C63 has a wonderful engine. Just roll down the windows and enjoy the music. It feels very fast, but I have no doubt that if I was to go head to head with a C63 I would walk. A C63 with all its horses unleashed would be a serious battle though.
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      09-03-2008, 01:40 AM   #9
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Kleemann already has a chip out to unleash the C63's power. For only $1495, you can get 55-60HP more to the wheels. No joke. Other tuners are about to release similar software. This engine is making 517 crank in the SL63, so it will be just as reliable in the C63.

Personally tho, I'm waiting a year to see which tuner's product is best.
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      09-03-2008, 12:13 PM   #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Hans Delbruck View Post
Kleemann already has a chip out to unleash the C63's power. For only $1495, you can get 55-60HP more to the wheels. No joke. Other tuners are about to release similar software. This engine is making 517 crank in the SL63, so it will be just as reliable in the C63.

Personally tho, I'm waiting a year to see which tuner's product is best.
Aw, c'mon. We'd all like to know, and as they say, "The early Christians get the best lions."

In any event, more data as you get it would be fine, even in this venue.

Bruce
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      09-03-2008, 02:36 PM   #11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Hans Delbruck View Post
Kleemann already has a chip out to unleash the C63's power. For only $1495, you can get 55-60HP more to the wheels. No joke. Other tuners are about to release similar software. This engine is making 517 crank in the SL63, so it will be just as reliable in the C63.

Personally tho, I'm waiting a year to see which tuner's product is best.
It needs to be mentioned that the power has to come from somewhere. Either reliability or gas mileage, and the C63 has worse fuel economy than the M3 does stock. So this makes me wonder how much worse would it get with this new software.

Personally, I'll probably never chip a car just becuase the additional price isn't worth any possible warranty issues I could face. And I'm not a pro driver, so realistically it would just be a totally stupid move on my part to buy a chip and boost a car in which I already have plenty of power.
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      09-03-2008, 11:39 PM   #12
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Bruce, I sent you a PM

I do agree that I can hardly use the power the car already has. However, there are a whole lotta "VS" threads about "which car is faster" so apparently speed does matter to some. Me -- I gotta admit, that's kind of why I chose the C63... although I certainly feel the M3 DCT can be every bit as fast, and the C63 does suffer some power loss once it gets warm (according to my butt dyno, which happens to be very sensitive!) I think the C63 really deserves to have the HP it's capable of. It's a heavy car.

As far as voiding the warranty, all I know is what I have read on the MB forum so far. One person's dealer is an authorized Kleemann dealer so he says he has no warranty issues with the software. In my personal opinion, with the "inside" info I have on what the software does, it poses no threat to the engine. And that's from the biggest mod chicken I know! (me) MB limited the power in a pretty simple way. Reliability should be unaffected, however gas mileage.... well... that's gonna depend on how happy your throttle foot gets !

I am just happy Kleemann, Renntech, and soon VRP and another tuner will have cracked this HP issue open and the C63 can now enjoy the same power it has in other MB applications. The C63's engine, intake, plumbing, exhaust... are all the same as the other 63's. It's all in the software. Although Kleemann claims if you add their headers as well, you can get a total of 90 more HP to the wheels!
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      09-04-2008, 12:17 AM   #13
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Cool, and if you choose the C63, B6, 503 Motoring is a Kleeman dealer for our area.
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      09-04-2008, 03:10 PM   #14
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The only problem I have with the C63 is the poor response from the gearbox(you may argue that the torque makes up for it ) and the dumbo ear mirrors! Hoping that someone will come out for a mirror mod to make it look a little less clumsy.
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      09-04-2008, 05:08 PM   #15
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Quote:
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The only problem I have with the C63 is the poor response from the gearbox(you may argue that the torque makes up for it ) and the dumbo ear mirrors! Hoping that someone will come out for a mirror mod to make it look a little less clumsy.
There is a new "wing" style mirror out for the C63 in '09 Looks a little less clumsy IMO.
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      09-04-2008, 05:50 PM   #16
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Hans,

I haven't driven the C63 as yet so this question might sound dumb to those who have or own one but how does it cope with the power it already has?

I just find it absurd to add another 90hp at the wheels without a proper LSD, and even then the torque is sure to take a jump as well. Are you just going to end up with a car which has a dancing ESP light every time you happen to be a little heavy of the old right foot, meaning all that hard work and money invested in the software mods being quelled by the traction control system until it's arrived at a speed which all of the beans can be used to the full (i.e. well above the speed limit).

What a waste if true.
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      09-05-2008, 07:58 AM   #17
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Quote:
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Hans,

I haven't driven the C63 as yet so this question might sound dumb to those who have or own one but how does it cope with the power it already has?

I just find it absurd to add another 90hp at the wheels without a proper LSD, and even then the torque is sure to take a jump as well. Are you just going to end up with a car which has a dancing ESP light every time you happen to be a little heavy of the old right foot, meaning all that hard work and money invested in the software mods being quelled by the traction control system until it's arrived at a speed which all of the beans can be used to the full (i.e. well above the speed limit).

What a waste if true.
There are a couple of ways to look at this.

In the semi-technical way of looking at it, this mod will add much more power than torque, and of course torque is what causes the drive wheels to do that scotch-tape-off-a-roll thing. Peak torque would of course climb a bit with this mod, but mainly the torque curve will not fall off nearly as steeply as with the stock motor, thus fleshing out the high rpm power.

The nature of the mod is such that everyday drivability will be absolutely unaffected, but full throttle will be even more of an eye-opener at high rpm.

The other way to look at it is the Mark Donohue way. You may remember this race driver's collaborative projects with Roger Penske in the late '60s and '70s. When Penske and Donahue began their collaboration with Porsche which eventually absolutely dominated the Can-Am series (kind of a run-what-you-brung venue with damn few rules), they were attempting to sort out some handling/aerodynamic/tire wear issues. During one of the tuning discussions, one of the Porsche engineers said something to the effect of "Well, at least we have enough power."

To which Donohue said something like: "Listen! Unless I can't use full throttle until I get to the last 100 feet of the longest straight we're ever going to run on, we don't have enough power!

Love it.

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      09-05-2008, 08:59 AM   #18
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bruce.augenstein@comcast. View Post
During one of the tuning discussions, one of the Porsche engineers said something to the effect of "Well, at least we have enough power."

To which Donohue said something like: "Listen! Unless I can't use full throttle until I get to the last 100 feet of the longest straight we're ever going to run on, we don't have enough power!

Love it.

Bruce
Ballsy, though I like his style. I'm from a different train of thought, I like to get the throttle down full as soon as possible and never want to lift until I reach the braking zone.

The only point I was making was why give a car more power when it is having problems putting to the ground what it already has, it's OK on the track with a proper race car saying this things, where aerodynamics can hepl push the car on to the surface and the race tyres provide mountains more grip but on a road car there is a point when enough is enough.

A perfect example of this was the RUF 'Yellow Bird', a car with more power than grip. This is not to say the C63 is anything like that but you understand my thinking.
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      09-05-2008, 09:53 AM   #19
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Quote:
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Ballsy, though I like his style. I'm from a different train of thought, I like to get the throttle down full as soon as possible and never want to lift until I reach the braking zone.

The only point I was making was why give a car more power when it is having problems putting to the ground what it already has, it's OK on the track with a proper race car saying this things, where aerodynamics can hepl push the car on to the surface and the race tyres provide mountains more grip but on a road car there is a point when enough is enough.

A perfect example of this was the RUF 'Yellow Bird', a car with more power than grip. This is not to say the C63 is anything like that but you understand my thinking.
I do indeed understand. However, don't overlook the semi-technical way of looking at it. This particular modification will not increase peak torque nearly as much as it will affect peak power, so traction problems will not increase dramatically.

Bruce
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      09-05-2008, 10:16 AM   #20
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The C63 is nice but is not the overall package people are looking for, comfort (no pass, ride IS harsh on anything but a glass surface), reliability (no pass, why do you think they don't care about the chip? $$$ to them if something happens), speed (pass, definitely definitely fast as hell). So 2 no gos out of 3.
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      09-05-2008, 10:30 AM   #21
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The C63 is nice but is not the overall package people are looking for, comfort (no pass, ride IS harsh on anything but a glass surface), reliability (no pass, why do you think they don't care about the chip? $$$ to them if something happens), speed (pass, definitely definitely fast as hell). So 2 no gos out of 3.
You could be right that the C63 isn't what people are looking for, but in my little corner of the world, M3s are in plentiful supply and seem to hang around for quite some time on the lots (admittedly only two lots I get to routinely see), while the local Merc dealer can't get one in without it being presold - the poor bastard.

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      09-05-2008, 02:21 PM   #22
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bruce.augenstein@comcast. View Post
You could be right that the C63 isn't what people are looking for, but in my little corner of the world, M3s are in plentiful supply and seem to hang around for quite some time on the lots (admittedly only two lots I get to routinely see), while the local Merc dealer can't get one in without it being presold - the poor bastard.

Bruce
You gotta point there. Also for those that don't know, the C63 can be equipped with a proper LSD, if you opt for the Performance Package, which also adds some other nice touches, one of them being an upgraded brake package. The reason the chip on the benz is adding so much power, is because the motor was detuned from the more expensive vehicles equipped with the same motor. So most of the gains are the just adding back some of the timing and fuel, which is mostly seen at the top of the RPM range, so I wouldn't be too worried about reliablity. As far as warranty, a dealership would have to be looking for it, and they would still have to prove that it caused your malfunction.
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