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      08-30-2008, 05:45 PM   #1
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What has the CSL got to do with you?

There are some heated debates about how //M decides not to make the CSL. Some people even seem to be emotional and angry at //M for making such a decision. The fact that resources has been diverted in to an M X5/6 just made the matter worse.

But let's come back down to earth and look at it. How many of us are actually going to have a real chance at getting a CSL? I'm trying to offend anyone by saying that you can't afford it. But even if you have 1-200k in your pocket to blow on a car, aren't there better performing choices? GT3s, F430s, lambos and the list goes on.

This leaves only the people who are so wealthy that probably hired someone just to write on this forum for them to buy the CSL. They have so much money that they simply doesn't care using some pocket change to expand their 20 car garage with the CSL. Are you one of them?

Yes, I know, you wouldn't fall for the M X5/6, but I also know my wife would want one once she sees the neighbor shuttling their kids to school in a Cayenne GTS. People buy cars for different reasons, perhaps they need a SUV (or SAV) but also wanted the //M badge just to make others think that their genitals are larger than they actually are, who knows? And now, BMW thinks that there are appeantly many people who wants an //M badge on their SUV, so they are making them. Has it got anything to do with you? Will it affect you?

To me, I don't care. The M3 is a great car, and I love it. That's all it matters to me. As long as they make a single car that performs like a pure bred sports car and within the price range that I could afford, I cool. Yes, some people might say that //M will be tarnished by not having a CSL and producing SUVs, but why do you care? I would like to think that most M3 drivers are like me; they are in it for the driving experience and not the braging rights of owning the //M badge in the back of their trunk. That's my take.
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      08-30-2008, 06:18 PM   #2
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You are spot on. But after seeing Jeremy Clarkson take the e46 m3 csl to the isle of man, it's gonna be dissapointing to know that such a potentially brilliant car would not exist for the current generation. like clarkson said, the m3 csl is after all an epitomy of what bmw IS.

i think for many people it is a symbol rather than just another car in the lineup. but fair play to bmw; if they have to cut that out due to the current market for cars and their need for budget elsewhere, then why not let them do it?
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      08-30-2008, 07:31 PM   #3
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With enough time and money, you can mod your M3 to be an amateur CSL. I know I wasn't expecting to get a CSL anytime soon, being that I live in the U.S and all.
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      08-30-2008, 07:38 PM   #4
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this is getting old.

get over it, or go become a BMW exec and make one.
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      08-30-2008, 07:58 PM   #5
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What is it set in stone or something? Maybe they will change their minds, maybe there will be a next gen M6 CSL if you want a BMW that blows everything away.
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      08-30-2008, 08:06 PM   #6
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Quote:
Originally Posted by synclastica_86 View Post
There are some heated debates about how //M decides not to make the CSL. Some people even seem to be emotional and angry at //M for making such a decision. The fact that resources has been diverted in to an M X5/6 just made the matter worse.

But let's come back down to earth and look at it. How many of us are actually going to have a real chance at getting a CSL? I'm trying to offend anyone by saying that you can't afford it. But even if you have 1-200k in your pocket to blow on a car, aren't there better performing choices? GT3s, F430s, lambos and the list goes on.

This leaves only the people who are so wealthy that probably hired someone just to write on this forum for them to buy the CSL. They have so much money that they simply doesn't care using some pocket change to expand their 20 car garage with the CSL. Are you one of them?

Yes, I know, you wouldn't fall for the M X5/6, but I also know my wife would want one once she sees the neighbor shuttling their kids to school in a Cayenne GTS. People buy cars for different reasons, perhaps they need a SUV (or SAV) but also wanted the //M badge just to make others think that their genitals are larger than they actually are, who knows? And now, BMW thinks that there are appeantly many people who wants an //M badge on their SUV, so they are making them. Has it got anything to do with you? Will it affect you?

To me, I don't care. The M3 is a great car, and I love it. That's all it matters to me. As long as they make a single car that performs like a pure bred sports car and within the price range that I could afford, I cool. Yes, some people might say that //M will be tarnished by not having a CSL and producing SUVs, but why do you care? I would like to think that most M3 drivers are like me; they are in it for the driving experience and not the braging rights of owning the //M badge in the back of their trunk. That's my take.
There are buys for the CLK63 Black... why wouldnt there be for an m3 csl????

Badging SUV's M is stupid since M is supposed to stand for motorsport and SUV's have nothing to do with motorsport. (obviously leaving things like dakar rally out).

M has built SUV's before... they just didnt receive M badges. x5 4.8is for example.
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      08-30-2008, 08:17 PM   #7
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There are buys for the CLK63 Black... why wouldnt there be for an m3 csl????

Badging SUV's M is stupid since M is supposed to stand for motorsport and SUV's have nothing to do with motorsport. (obviously leaving things like dakar rally out).

M has built SUV's before... they just didnt receive M badges. x5 4.8is for example.
Your point? Read the whole post before jumpind to conclusions. I'm not blaming //M for anything.
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      08-30-2008, 08:58 PM   #8
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CSL has become an icon, and people are interested in how far things can be pushed for a given chassis. If CSL should be of no interest to anyone, then so shouldn't the GT3, F430, etc. If you own a E92 chassis car, it is only natural that you might have developed an affinity toward what the E92 CSL might be capable of.

Also, for most people, ownership experience does go beyond the car one is in possession of. People do buy into a specific brand/culture/values to a certain degree when they spend $65k on a car. The "M" label has something to do with that. No point in denying it. And if that brand/culture/values are "diluted"--as in M SUVs--it is natural that some people will not like it. Otherwise, how could one justify paying $200k+ for a Ferrari for instance? There is an emotional component to all of this.

Finally, it is not at all clear that the GT3 would perform better than a hypothetical E92 CSL, and an F430 would most likely cost more than 1.5 times a hypothetical E92 CSL.

Why do you care that some people care about the CSL?
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      08-30-2008, 09:34 PM   #9
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Originally Posted by lucid View Post
CSL has become an icon, and people are interested in how far things can be pushed for a given chassis. If CSL should be of no interest to anyone, then so shouldn't the GT3, F430, etc. If you own a E92 chassis car, it is only natural that you might have developed an affinity toward what the E92 CSL might be capable of.

Also, for most people, ownership experience does go beyond the car one is in possession of. People do buy into a specific brand/culture/values to a certain degree when they spend $65k on a car. The "M" label has something to do with that. No point in denying it. And if that brand/culture/values are "diluted"--as in M SUVs--it is natural that some people will not like it. Otherwise, how could one justify paying $200k+ for a Ferrari for instance? There is an emotional component to all of this.

Finally, it is not at all clear that the GT3 would perform better than a hypothetical E92 CSL, and an F430 would most likely cost more than 1.5 times a hypothetical E92 CSL.

Why do you care that some people care about the CSL?
Very well said. But would you said by bringing in the Cayenne, Porsche has tarnished its own name? Proud 911 owners still enjoy the way that their car drives; the Cayenne didn't "dilute" the Carerra experience did it? Just because //M made an SUV, it's not going to make their brand and other cars worse.

As a E92 owner, I am indeed interested in finding out how far we can push this chassie. However, aren't there enough after market tuner for that? Dinan's 650hp M3, is that far enough for you?

As for cost, is it really a factor? A GT3 might not out perform the hypothetical CSL, but at least you have a real shot in getting one. Even if they did make a CSL, especially if you are in north america, you chance of getting one is slim to none.

I'll be interested in a CSL, but I won't complain if they don't make one. And neither will I complain about M SUVs. As long as //M still makes cars that lives up to traditions and standards, I'll still be a loyal customer.
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      08-30-2008, 10:08 PM   #10
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But would you said by bringing in the Cayenne, Porsche has tarnished its own name? Proud 911 owners still enjoy the way that their car drives; the Cayenne didn't "dilute" the Carerra experience did it? Just because //M made an SUV, it's not going to make their brand and other cars worse.
Yes, that is a very relevant case. I guess one could say that some P-car loyalists might have indeed been seriously turned off by that. Imagine how Ferrari owners would feel if Ferrari released an SUV. But, most 911 owners probably did not care since most use their 911s to go to the grocery store. In other words, it obviously was a good business move for Porsche, but good business moves don't always satisfy/emote the entire customer base. You need to keep your lead users happy and interested as they play a key role in projecting the image. The danger is "diluting" the brand to the extent that excitement around the brand is significantly diminished. I personally do not think BMW will make that mistake.

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As a E92 owner, I am indeed interested in finding out how far we can push this chassie. However, aren't there enough after market tuner for that? Dinan's 650hp M3, is that far enough for you?
The E46 CSL did not have significantly more power, but it did have a lighter chassis and better intake/throttle response and camshaft and valve modifications (probably aimed at better performance at the high rpm range, but I don't know the specifics). Something about optimizing a system to make it as "lean" and "dedicated" as possible rather than simply increasing displacement. One could probably make similar changes to a stock E9X M3, but the image of the CSL stands out as a "less-comprimised" performance car (I won't call it a race car), which is a concept that is appealing to many. (Don't we all secretly want "less comprimised lives"?) But "appealing" does not mean that those folks will actually put their money where their mouths are and purchase a CSL and commute in it if it were to be avaliable.

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As long as //M still makes cars that lives up to traditions and standards, I'll still be a loyal customer.
I think this is the main issue. Some people are concerned that the //M "Motorsport" tradition is at risk. I personally do not think so, but significant reduction in the R&D budget and M engineers possibly spending time on not so relevant projects--"dilution" of focus internally--might indeed to be problematic in the long run. We'll see...
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      08-30-2008, 10:44 PM   #11
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Imagine how Ferrari owners would feel if Ferrari released an SUV.
Yes, but Ferrari is not like //M, it is a company dedicated to sports cars. //M is different, it is more like an in-house tuner just like AMG for mercs. Their job is to make bimmer a better driving machine (contradictory to the company slogan "the ultimate driving machine"). AMG did made the ML63 and the R63 (I must admit that it's a bad move... a real bad move), but that didn't piss of AMG owners. My point is: if //M can turn SUVs into cars that are pleasurable to drive, isn't this the ultimate proof that they know performance? Isn't this a plus for brand reputation?

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The E46 CSL did not have significantly more power, but it did have a lighter chassis and better intake/throttle response and camshaft and valve modifications (probably aimed at better performance at the high rpm range, but I don't know the specifics). Something about optimizing a system to make it as "lean" and "dedicated" as possible rather than simply increasing displacement. One could probably make similar changes to a stock E9X M3, but the image of the CSL stands out as a "less-comprimised" performance car (I won't call it a race car), which is a concept that is appealing to many. (Don't we all secretly want "less comprimised lives"?) But "appealing" does not mean that those folks will actually put their money where their mouths are and purchase a CSL and commute in it if it were to be avaliable.
I guess the question here is how extensively is the E46 CSL modified? Does it include modifications that an aftermarket tuner can't replicate? Some aftermarket mods are not all about power. Many serious tuners do focus on handling also. Is this enough? What can //M do that other tuners couldn't?

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I think this is the main issue. Some people are concerned that the //M "Motorsport" tradition is at risk. I personally do not think so, but significant reduction in the R&D budget and M engineers possibly spending time on not so relevant projects--"dilution" of focus internally--might indeed to be problematic in the long run. We'll see...
So the verdict: wait till the next M3 and see whether it has been reduced to a camry on steroids. (fingers crossed)
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      08-31-2008, 12:32 AM   #12
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The E46 CSL did not have significantly more power, but it did have a lighter chassis and better intake/throttle response and camshaft and valve modifications (probably aimed at better performance at the high rpm range, but I don't know the specifics). Something about optimizing a system to make it as "lean" and "dedicated" as possible rather than simply increasing displacement. One could probably make similar changes to a stock E9X M3, but the image of the CSL stands out as a "less-comprimised" performance car (I won't call it a race car), which is a concept that is appealing to many. (Don't we all secretly want "less comprimised lives"?) But "appealing" does not mean that those folks will actually put their money where their mouths are and purchase a CSL and commute in it if it were to be avaliable.
lucid, as usual, you've hit the nail on the proverbial head. I don't have the money to buy the CSL, whether it is produced or not, and even if I did, I wouldn't spend it on a CSL. That said, as an M3 purchaser, I do want to see what BMW can do with this chassis and this iteration of the M3. Everyone knows that their respective car manufacturers leave something in reserve, even when building performance versions of their cars. The M3, for example, is an incredible machine, but think about what it could do if BMW wasn't concerned with its day-to-day behavior. Even if we wouldn't want to live with such cars on a day to day basis, we want to see what a few more hp or pound-feet of torque squeezed out of an engine or a ligher and more rigid chassis can accomplish. And when that uncompromising, no-excuses car is produced, we'll want to associate our cars with it.

I personally want to see a car like the CSL purely out of intellectual curiousity. As amazing as our M3's are, what coulld could the CSL accomplish?

Quote:
Originally Posted by lucid
I think this is the main issue. Some people are concerned that the //M "Motorsport" tradition is at risk. I personally do not think so, but significant reduction in the R&D budget and M engineers possibly spending time on not so relevant projects--"dilution" of focus internally--might indeed to be problematic in the long run. We'll see...
I agree that I don't think it'll be a problem. Personally, as much of a worthy challenge as it may be to get an X5 to handle like an E46 M3, I don't think that the M-division will lose its way.
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      08-31-2008, 12:50 AM   #13
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Forget the CSL... there are worse things going on... like the recent news that BMW will be moving some 3-series production to the US!!!

Now that's something worth bitching about - and honestly, this would be my last straw for BMW. If they actually start making the beloved 3-series here in the US... then my wife's next car will be a Mercedes - made in Germany!

And I'll keep my M3 forever!
Well will "it's still german engineering" make ou feel better?

if I'm your wife, I'd say "make it an SLR Roadster".
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      08-31-2008, 04:26 PM   #14
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The CSL, to me, has always been a purist, hard-core car. One that is beautiful to drive, but too raw for a daily driver. Not too many people can justify the money for that. There are a lot of other, cheaper, "weekend" toys to take to the track. Everyone wants one but wouldn't buy, or could justify, getting a CSL.

I could be totally wrong, but my feeling is that BMW is going for the "luxury mass market". (Sounds like an oxymoron, doesn't it?) They plan on selling many M3s. But how many CSLs do you think they would sell? Or more to the point: how many does BMW think they can sell? If the CSL appeals to such a small niche market then I do not think they will want to market it.

By my thinking, I believe it's a mistake -- the CSL would make a good "halo" car, like Nissan's GT-R. It would show everyone what BMW is capable of. (And it would keep the engineers happy. ) They spend money on F1, don't they? The CSL is more of the same thing. Sorta like advertising.

I'd like to have one but I'd probably never get one if they did offer it. I want a daily driver that's immensely fun and rewarding to drive. The M3 fits the bill for that. Even if the driving experience of the CSL is more so, the loss of practicality with the added expense of acquiring one makes it a no go for me.
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      08-31-2008, 04:36 PM   #15
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But how many CSLs do you think they would sell? Or more to the point: how many does BMW think they can sell? .
Um... every single one they make. They won't produce many, maybe 1-200. They'll all be spoken for before the first delivery.

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By my thinking, I believe it's a mistake -- the CSL would make a good "halo" car, like Nissan's GT-R. It would show everyone what BMW is capable of. (And it would keep the engineers happy. ) They spend money on F1, don't they? The CSL is more of the same thing. Sorta like advertising.
Not really... especially if they treat it like the E46 CSL. They didn't produce nearly enough publicity for the car unlike the nissan GTR. The average BMW buyer (not the enthusists on this forum) doesn't even know the existance of a CSL. Don't trust me? Ask around. If they were to make a halo car... they'd better make a big deal out of it.

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I'd like to have one but I'd probably never get one if they did offer it. I want a daily driver that's immensely fun and rewarding to drive. The M3 fits the bill for that. Even if the driving experience of the CSL is more so, the loss of practicality with the added expense of acquiring one makes it a no go for me.
For me, at least, the CSL does have the potential to be a daily driver. It is not that much harsher than an ordinary M3. It is also by no means a lotus like track car. That said, at that price range, I'd go for a porsche or the baby aston.
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      08-31-2008, 04:48 PM   #16
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Um... every single one they make. They won't produce many, maybe 1-200. They'll all be spoken for before the first delivery.

Not really... especially if they treat it like the E46 CSL. They didn't produce nearly enough publicity for the car unlike the nissan GTR. The average BMW buyer (not the enthusists on this forum) doesn't even know the existance of a CSL. Don't trust me? Ask around. If they were to make a halo car... they'd better make a big deal out of it.
You're right, they didn't make enough E46 CSLs. I'm sure that if they would have made ten times as many they would have sold them. But that's still small numbers compared to the M3 and certainly the rest of the 3 series. They just think they can't sell that much, or that maybe they don't make as much on each copy, therefore they don't want to put the effort to build and market many. Maybe they just want to make it collectible in the future?

If they made a big deal out of it I'm sure they would have fans. Look at the GT-R. They could make one that really attacks the 'Ring, set a 'Ring record and have bragging rights. You can't tell me that would hurt sales.

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For me, at least, the CSL does have the potential to be a daily driver. It is not that much harsher than an ordinary M3. It is also by no means a lotus like track car. That said, at that price range, I'd go for a porsche or the baby aston.
I didn't exactly mean the ride. I've had harsh rides before and used them as a DD. But, I guess it depends on exactly how they engineer the E92 CSL. I don't think cardboard trunk floors are too practical. If it were stronger yet still light, it would be better for a daily driver. If it could be more practical than the E46 CSL then I'd probably pick it over a GT3 if I could afford one, or rather fit it in the budget.
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      08-31-2008, 06:00 PM   #17
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People Dont Get It....the Cayenne Is Not The Same As An M X5 Or X6..... If Porsche Makes A Cayenne Rs... Then It Will Be The Same.... God
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      08-31-2008, 06:13 PM   #18
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Yes, but Ferrari is not like //M, it is a company dedicated to sports cars. //M is different, it is more like an in-house tuner just like AMG for mercs.
The Ferrari example is extereme, but I used it to demonstrate what I mean by culture/values/emotions around a product. Yes, the M3 is ultimately a 3 series, so it is not that special, but the same line of thinking applies to an extent.

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Originally Posted by synclastica_86 View Post
Their job is to make bimmer a better driving machine (contradictory to the company slogan "the ultimate driving machine"). AMG did made the ML63 and the R63 (I must admit that it's a bad move... a real bad move), but that didn't piss of AMG owners.
I'd say the AMG owners are a different breed. AMG cars are not exactly "purist" cars (excluding the black series, which is relatively new).

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My point is: if //M can turn SUVs into cars that are pleasurable to drive, isn't this the ultimate proof that they know performance? Isn't this a plus for brand reputation?
I think the answer depends on who is answering. They don't need to prove that they know performance by messing with SUVs. They need to prove they know performance by focusing all their energy on M passenger cars. We don't really see major TV coverage of SUVs racing on the track, and for a reason. Also, as I've been saying, your fanatic M lead consumer/admirer does not care about SUVs or see them as performance vehicles. That's not what they are looking forward to. So, those folks will not be happy to see the M badge on SUVs as they don't want that association between their Ms and the neighbour's M SUV.


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Originally Posted by synclastica_86 View Post
I guess the question here is how extensively is the E46 CSL modified? Does it include modifications that an aftermarket tuner can't replicate? Some aftermarket mods are not all about power. Many serious tuners do focus on handling also. Is this enough? What can //M do that other tuners couldn't?
Well, it is all engineering. If you have enough money, you can find solid vendors with excellent engineering expertise who can do most of what M does, but it wouldn't be cheap at all. (Not talking about the $1500 Proceed chip fooling the ECU type of mod here). Are you willing to pay for it--solid engineering will be expensive? Do you want your engine pulled apart so that the camshaft and the exhaust valves can be modified, meaning no more warranty? And some of those mods would be very difficult to pull off without the resources of a major manufacturer, such as the CF roof. I bet that, if they had gone for the CSL, they would have used CF to lighten major structural components and not just sheet metal. That would not be trivial, and require manufacturing expertise the way the CF roof does.

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So the verdict: wait till the next M3 and see whether it has been reduced to a camry on steroids. (fingers crossed)
Unlikely, but the real danger is other manufacturers stepping in with CSL like "less comprimised" cars, and stealing the excitement and eventually the show from BMW. BMW has to keep on innovating and demonstrating the capabilities of its M division with extreme products such as the CSL or something else in conjunction with the regular M lineup.
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      08-31-2008, 07:17 PM   #19
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So, those folks will not be happy to see the M badge on SUVs as they don't want that association between their Ms and the neighbour's M SUV.
I agree 100% on what you said. But I guess the big question is would you be detered form buying the next M3 because of M SUVs? My answer to this question is if I definately won't. But honestly, I am not going to be a happy guy when the guy in the next office brags about how quick his M SUV is and how he could smoke my M3.

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Well, it is all engineering. If you have enough money, you can find solid vendors with excellent engineering expertise who can do most of what M does, but it wouldn't be cheap at all. (Not talking about the $1500 Proceed chip fooling the ECU type of mod here). Are you willing to pay for it--solid engineering will be expensive? Do you want your engine pulled apart so that the camshaft and the exhaust valves can be modified, meaning no more warranty? And some of those mods would be very difficult to pull off without the resources of a major manufacturer, such as the CF roof. I bet that, if they had gone for the CSL, they would have used CF to lighten major structural components and not just sheet metal. That would not be trivial, and require manufacturing expertise the way the CF roof does.
Well, we are talking about a CSL here - expect to pay over twice of what an ordinary E92 is fully loaded. It's surely no cheap mule. With that much to work with, it is not difficult to perform some major chassie weight shedding. And CF parts are not as difficult to fabricate as one would imagine. I've done alot of fiber glass laying for boats. Even in a low tech shop, people (I've seen it and done it) can build an entire cabin for a yacht with just wolden molds. CF laying is very similar. Given the non-CF original parts to work with, creating a CF counterpart will be a piece of cake. That said, I'll be much more comfortable pushing the limits in a factory made car.

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Unlikely, but the real danger is other manufacturers stepping in with CSL like "less comprimised" cars, and stealing the excitement and eventually the show from BMW. BMW has to keep on innovating and demonstrating the capabilities of its M division with extreme products such as the CSL or something else in conjunction with the regular M lineup.
Would you say that the AMG blacks and DTMs are Merc's answer to the CSL? Do you think that the Blacks, and the GTR V-spec is an immediate threat to //M's supermacy? I'm an //M loyalist, that might have clouded my sense of judgement, but I think that at as of now, I still woult take an M3 over any AMG or Nissan.
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      08-31-2008, 08:00 PM   #20
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Originally Posted by synclastica_86 View Post
Would you say that the AMG blacks and DTMs are Merc's answer to the CSL? Do you think that the Blacks, and the GTR V-spec is an immediate threat to //M's supermacy? I'm an //M loyalist, that might have clouded my sense of judgement, but I think that at as of now, I still woult take an M3 over any AMG or Nissan.
It is clear that BMW does not currently have a showcase car like a GTR, AMG Black, R8, GT3, ACR, or Z06. Although they seem to keep on saying they don't need such a car, I bet that they are concerned about that gap in their lineup, and will do "something" about it.
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      08-31-2008, 08:20 PM   #21
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If BMW really needs a showcase car, I'd think a mid-engine two-seater would fit the bill better than the CSL. Not exactly like an Elise though. It should still have some luxury to it -- leather, nav, safety, etc. More like an exotic car.
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      08-31-2008, 09:54 PM   #22
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It is clear that BMW does not currently have a showcase car like a GTR, AMG Black, R8, GT3, ACR, or Z06. Although they seem to keep on saying they don't need such a car, I bet that they are concerned about that gap in their lineup, and will do "something" about it.
The GTR, AMG Black, R8, GT3, ACR, and Z06 are not like the CSL, they are not as limited. I reckon that the "something" must be something that they can sell in numbers. A 2-door, perhaps mid-engine flagship, another CSL might not be the best solution.
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