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      08-27-2008, 07:07 PM   #23
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Originally Posted by UncleWede View Post
I'm registered non=partisan because it lets me concentrate on individual candidates, not party lines. It bugs me to no end when I ask something along the lines of "Who are you voting for this election" and I get "The (insert party name here)" No, WHO are you voting for. Some don't really even know the candidate, but can't really tell me their party's line either. . .

If looking at the majority in the last two elections, I voted more Democrats than Republicans, but there were a few "other" party candidates as well.
I generally agree that you should focus on the candidate but party affiliation is important as well. With regard to congressional elections, the majority party in either house enjoys significant benefits on account of their majority. It is important to take into account how your vote will effect the legislative body as a whole.
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      08-27-2008, 07:36 PM   #24
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Originally Posted by ganeil View Post
I think you have a fundamentally flawed conception of how the US government works, or is supposed to work. The federal government is not empowered by our Constitution to spend any money on books. Now, that is not followed in practice but the vast majority of money spent on education in this country comes from state and local governments, not the federal. That is how the system is designed.

The federal government is constitutionally responsible for defense so it only makes sense that it spends more of its revenue on defense.

I find it interesting that you fault the US for supporting democracy over dictators as I am old enough to remember when we were lambasted by the left for supporting dictators at the expense of democracy movements in countries with strong anti-communist authoritarian regimes.



The choice is between those who think it is the role of the government to solve the problems you cite and those who think federal government is more a part of the problem than the solution.
I'd thought I'd chime in by saying: F*&k you.

That hit the spot.....
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      08-27-2008, 08:10 PM   #25
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I want a candidate who...

1. Can make the tough decisions
2. Will surround himself around the smartest people, not his buds.
3. Will not surround himself around a bunch of "yes men"
3. Who won't continuously insist that the sky is red, when its clearly not
4. Is a true leader
5. Is a true manager (that's what a president is supposed to be)
6. Someone who can motivate the people of this country to act
7. Someone who the world will listen to and not one who they can't stand

That's why I am NOT voting for McCain. Experience doesn't mean shit when ego and party unity gets in the way of doing the right thing.
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      08-27-2008, 08:17 PM   #26
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TMNT View Post
I want a candidate who...

1. Can make the tough decisions
2. Will surround himself around the smartest people, not his buds.
3. Will not surround himself around a bunch of "yes men"
3. Who won't continuously insist that the sky is red, when its clearly not
4. Is a true leader
5. Is a true manager (that's what a president is supposed to be)
6. Someone who can motivate the people of this country to act

That's why I am NOT voting for McCain. Experience doesn't mean shit when ego and party unity gets in the way of doing the right thing.
Compare for me please the toughest decision Obama has made with McCain's.

The people who surround each candidate who disagree with them on major, substantive issues.

The record of each man to "toeing" the party or ideological line.

Show me something that Obama has either led or managed.

By your own basis, McCain is the clear choice.
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      08-27-2008, 08:48 PM   #27
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ganeil View Post
Compare for me please the toughest decision Obama has made with McCain's.

The people who surround each candidate who disagree with them on major, substantive issues.

The record of each man to "toeing" the party or ideological line.

Show me something that Obama has either led or managed.

By your own basis, McCain is the clear choice.
Thanks for asking me to provide reasons why Obama falls into those categories while enthusiastically crowning McCain without yourself stating why.

Clearly McCain will hold some of these qualities that I like. McCain was the democrats favorite Republican remember? But we saw a McCain who had to sell short the very things he believed in to finally get the republican nomination and "appease" their base. Which he's still trying to do.

Other than that I dont want a president who thinks people who make under 5 million dollars a year is middle class. I don't want a president who will say to the face of the american people that the economy is great. I dont want a president who has a political advisor say that the american people are in a "mental recession." I don't want a president who will stay in Iraq for 100 years and refuses to admit the Iraq war was a bad idea. I dont want a president who thinks drilling for more oil is the best idea since slice bread. And finally I DON'T WANT A PRESIDENT WHO REFUSES TO AKNOWLEDGE THE OBVIOUS TO PROTECT HIS OWN PARTY AND/OR HIS PRIDE.

If you don't think anything is broken, then you won't fix it. According to McCain everything is fine and dandy, so nothing will be done.
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      08-27-2008, 10:40 PM   #28
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TMNT View Post
Thanks for asking me to provide reasons why Obama falls into those categories while enthusiastically crowning McCain without yourself stating why.

Clearly McCain will hold some of these qualities that I like. McCain was the democrats favorite Republican remember? But we saw a McCain who had to sell short the very things he believed in to finally get the republican nomination and "appease" their base. Which he's still trying to do.

Other than that I dont want a president who thinks people who make under 5 million dollars a year is middle class. I don't want a president who will say to the face of the american people that the economy is great. I dont want a president who has a political advisor say that the american people are in a "mental recession." I don't want a president who will stay in Iraq for 100 years and refuses to admit the Iraq war was a bad idea. I dont want a president who thinks drilling for more oil is the best idea since slice bread. And finally I DON'T WANT A PRESIDENT WHO REFUSES TO AKNOWLEDGE THE OBVIOUS TO PROTECT HIS OWN PARTY AND/OR HIS PRIDE.

If you don't think anything is broken, then you won't fix it. According to McCain everything is fine and dandy, so nothing will be done.
McCain has not said the economy is great, he has said the fundamentals are sound. Many economists agree. The adviser who commented on the "mental recession" was relieved from his position on the campaign. Although what he said had a basis in reality in that we are NOT in a recession but many people seem to believe we are.

McCain's energy plan is not a "drill only" plan. He now favors drilling in addition to investing in alternatives and conservation because he recognizes that our economy runs on oil and will for the foreseeable future. He also understands that the middle class you claim to be concerned for is hurting from the increase in the price of oil and that one sure way to lower the price of oil is to increase the supply.

His comment on Iraq was not about being at war for 100 years but there in the same way we have been in Germany and Japan for 60+ years and South Korea for 50+. Do you have a problem with our being there as well? Iraq was not a mistake. We removed one of the world's most despotic tyrants, who had twice invaded his neighbors, gassed and terrorized his own people, defied the international community in an area of vital interest to us and our allies and replaced him with the Arab world's first representative government.

Lastly, I HAVE NO IDEA WHAT YOU BELIEVE TO BE OBVIOUS.
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      08-27-2008, 11:01 PM   #29
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It would make sense if the Republican Party and the Democrat Party just joined forces and became one unified party. Then with just one major party, the minor parties would have a chance to fill the void. In rhetoric the Republican party is different enough from the Democrat party to be attractive. In results, they are little different.

The United States of America is a dim shadow of it's great history. And there may be no changing that to match her former greatness. To do so, the people must be great, and the leadership must be from among a great people.

Our civilization is declining into comfortable mediocrity. Such ease is not the stuff of greatness.

There is an alternative to the back and forth motion of the Democrats and Republicans. Seek it out. Existing third parties offer real change that would bring liberty and freedom. Reject tyranny. Reject the rulers we have accepted as if there were no other choice.
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      08-28-2008, 09:13 AM   #30
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ganeil View Post
With regard to congressional elections, the majority party in either house enjoys significant benefits on account of their majority. It is important to take into account how your vote will effect the legislative body as a whole.
Does that make any rational sense at all? When I hear reports like "WE'RE working towards this, but the (insert party here) are holding fast to their opposition" it reminds me of two rival GANGS on their turf war, not elected officials who are supposed to be representative of the people who voted them in. Oh, wait, maybe that's exactly it. . .

It is so unfortunate when the recordings single out the representative who "broke" party lines and voted for something s/he just might actually believe is correct. THAT is the kind of person I look for when I go to vote. Someone with the balls to stand up and vote for what just might be the better thing, not the (inset party here) thing!!!
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      08-28-2008, 09:41 AM   #31
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Quote:
Originally Posted by UncleWede View Post
Does that make any rational sense at all? When I hear reports like "WE'RE working towards this, but the (insert party here) are holding fast to their opposition" it reminds me of two rival GANGS on their turf war, not elected officials who are supposed to be representative of the people who voted them in. Oh, wait, maybe that's exactly it. . .

It is so unfortunate when the recordings single out the representative who "broke" party lines and voted for something s/he just might actually believe is correct. THAT is the kind of person I look for when I go to vote. Someone with the balls to stand up and vote for what just might be the better thing, not the (inset party here) thing!!!
There is a bigger picture than simply what votes an individual legislator might cast. The structure of the Senate and the House (most especially) make it so that the majority leader or Speaker can generally decide which bills get brought before their respective chambers for a vote.

Lets take off-shore drilling as an example. Say you support allowing more off shore drilling and you have a candidate in your district, a democrat, who supports lifting the moratorium but by voting him into office you are empowering a party leader like Nancy Pelosi or Harry Reed who opposes such a move and has the ability to prevent the issue from ever coming to the floor for a vote. Are you really advancing what you believe to be the right thing by voting for that candidate?

It works the same on any number of issues. There were a number of moderate republicans in the House who supported certain gun control laws but their being in office allowed republican leaders to move legislation forward to kill those laws.
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      08-28-2008, 10:19 AM   #32
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That's the thing, it's SHOULDN'T be a Republican or Democratic thing, it should be the correct thing. Yes, the majority leader gets a lot of power. Those with the power to elect that person have more control than the rest of us, until we elect another. Not so different from any other elected official, and why it is so important to pick a person who is rounded enough that you feel confident s/he will make the right decision.

OK, I guess I have to wake back up to reality . . .to the broken system we have.
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      08-28-2008, 11:23 AM   #33
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ganeil View Post
McCain has not said the economy is great, he has said the fundamentals are sound. Many economists agree.
And which fundamentals was McCain refering to?

- Inflation is rising
- Real wages are declining
- Unemployment is increasing
- Cost of food is rising.
- Optimism about economy is declining.
- Foreclosures are still increasing.

What else is left outside of import/export trade, GDP, etc...

Quote:
Originally Posted by ganeil View Post
McCain's energy plan is not a "drill only" plan. He now favors drilling in addition to investing in alternatives and conservation because he recognizes that our economy runs on oil and will for the foreseeable future. He also understands that the middle class you claim to be concerned for is hurting from the increase in the price of oil and that one sure way to lower the price of oil is to increase the supply.
According to NPR, "The Department of Energy says there may be 18 billion barrels of oil in coastal waters, but they also say that drilling for it would not have a significant impact on production or prices until 2030." Oil industry insiders "say drilling won't ease the oil pinch." Matthew Simmons, President of energy investment bank says, "It's really misleading to hold that out as a panacea. It won't work. It might work for our grandchildren."

The middle class cannot wait 22 years for oil drilling to finally have an impact. Stop with all the bullshit. We need to do something now. Using less is the key. Improve consumability standards in cars, encourage americans with incentives to buy hybrids, do something, anything for short term relief now.
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      08-28-2008, 11:29 AM   #34
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TMNT View Post
The middle class cannot wait 22 years for oil drilling to finally have an impact. Stop with all the bullshit. We need to do something now. Using less is the key. Improve consumability standards in cars, encourage americans with incentives to buy hybrids, do something, anything for short term relief now.
Which hybrid are you trading in your bimmer to get?
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      08-28-2008, 12:00 PM   #35
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TMNT View Post
And which fundamentals was McCain refering to?

- Inflation is rising
- Real wages are declining
- Unemployment is increasing
- Cost of food is rising.
- Optimism about economy is declining.
- Foreclosures are still increasing.

What else is left outside of import/export trade, GDP, etc...
GDP for one, the BEA announced today that the economy grew at 3.3% in the 2d quarter of this year. Unemployment is rising but is still low at by historic measure. Inflation has spiked up as oil prices and food prices have risen but Obama's policy preferences for ethanol subsidies and restrictions on drilling are at least partially responsible for this.

Quote:
According to NPR, "The Department of Energy says there may be 18 billion barrels of oil in coastal waters, but they also say that drilling for it would not have a significant impact on production or prices until 2030." Oil industry insiders "say drilling won't ease the oil pinch." Matthew Simmons, President of energy investment bank says, "It's really misleading to hold that out as a panacea. It won't work. It might work for our grandchildren."

The middle class cannot wait 22 years for oil drilling to finally have an impact. Stop with all the bullshit. We need to do something now. Using less is the key. Improve consumability standards in cars, encourage americans with incentives to buy hybrids, do something, anything for short term relief now.
Increasing fuel economy standards will have no immediate benefit as new models take a decade to design and build, nor will encouraging alternatives. The fact of the matter is that we can and should do all of the above. The argument that it takes x number of years for oil to reach the market is all well and good but had we had the foresight to open up ANWR or the coast 10-12 years ago, we would have that oil available today. Continuing to deny us the oil that is available is nonsensical.
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      08-28-2008, 12:19 PM   #36
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Originally Posted by scottwww View Post
Which hybrid are you trading in your bimmer to get?
No need for a hybrid..that's why I bought a motorcycle in Jan 08...a 250cc to be exact with 70mpg
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      08-28-2008, 12:51 PM   #37
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TMNT View Post
I want a candidate who...

1. Can make the tough decisions
2. Will surround himself around the smartest people, not his buds.
3. Will not surround himself around a bunch of "yes men"
3. Who won't continuously insist that the sky is red, when its clearly not
4. Is a true leader
5. Is a true manager (that's what a president is supposed to be)
6. Someone who can motivate the people of this country to act
7. Someone who the world will listen to and not one who they can't stand

That's why I am NOT voting for McCain. Experience doesn't mean shit when ego and party unity gets in the way of doing the right thing.
I am still curious as to your decision making process. Given that these are your criteria, what information concerning each of the candidates did you put into each element to determine that Obama is your guy.
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      08-28-2008, 12:53 PM   #38
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TMNT View Post
- Inflation is rising
- Real wages are declining
- Cost of food is rising.
Aren't these essentially the same thing?

Quote:
- Optimism about economy is declining.
I'm pretty darn optimistic with what I see versus what I hear. We are in the industrial sector which is normally hit pretty hard and have had double digit growth this year and last.

I expect upswings elsewhere in 2009.

Quote:
The middle class cannot wait 22 years for oil drilling to finally have an impact. Stop with all the bullshit. We need to do something now. Using less is the key. Improve consumability standards in cars, encourage americans with incentives to buy hybrids, do something, anything for short term relief now.
Cost effective alternatives are many decades away. Concurrent progress is needed including using available supplies.
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      08-28-2008, 04:11 PM   #39
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ganeil View Post
I think you have a fundamentally flawed conception of how the US government works, or is supposed to work. The federal government is not empowered by our Constitution to spend any money on books. Now, that is not followed in practice but the vast majority of money spent on education in this country comes from state and local governments, not the federal. That is how the system is designed.
it was a metaphor, i'm saying obama would spend more money domestically to improve the life of the average joe.
i have no idea of the specifics of Obama or McCain policies, maybe i've fallen for all the hype about Obama, but i dont see how in the world a McCain presidency would help America at all. McCain is for big business, big military, help the rich, etc. . . . . if the US cut their military spending in half they'd still outspend every other country in the world. think about all the Americans you could help with that money.


Quote:
Originally Posted by ganeil View Post
I find it interesting that you fault the US for supporting democracy over dictators as I am old enough to remember when we were lambasted by the left for supporting dictators at the expense of democracy movements in countries with strong anti-communist authoritarian regimes.
the rule should be "if you broke it, you fix it". i see a lot of 'breaking', but not a lot of 'fixing' if you know what i mean.



Quote:
Originally Posted by ganeil View Post
The choice is between those who think it is the role of the government to solve the problems you cite and those who think federal government is more a part of the problem than the solution.
well after 8 years of conservative rule, do you see any improvement?
is 8 more years of the same going to be good for America?
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      08-28-2008, 04:21 PM   #40
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it was a metaphor, i'm saying obama would spend more money domestically to improve the life of the average joe.
i have no idea of the specifics of Obama or McCain policies, maybe i've fallen for all the hype about Obama, but i dont see how in the world a McCain presidency would help America at all. McCain is for big business, big military, help the rich, etc. . . . . if the US cut their military spending in half they'd still outspend every other country in the world. think about all the Americans you could help with that money.
If you believe John McCain is for big business and helping the rich, you really do not have an idea of the specifics of his or Obama's policies.

Quite simply, "helping" Americans is not a function of the federal government. Defending them is.

Quote:
the rule should be "if you broke it, you fix it". i see a lot of 'breaking', but not a lot of 'fixing' if you know what i mean.
Iraq was better off under Saddam? Afghanistan under the Taliban?

These were two very broken states that are now on the road to a better future.

Quote:
well after 8 years of conservative rule, do you see any improvement?
is 8 more years of the same going to be good for America?
Actually, domestically Bush has not governed as a conservative. In fact he never claimed to be a "small -government" conservative. Non-defense, discretionary spending has grown enormously under him. McCain on the other hand is a fiscal conservative and has been for decades.
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      08-28-2008, 04:35 PM   #41
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ganeil View Post
If you believe John McCain is for big business and helping the rich, you really do not have an idea of the specifics of his or Obama's policies.

Quite simply, "helping" Americans is not a function of the federal government. Defending them is.



Iraq was better off under Saddam? Afghanistan under the Taliban?

These were two very broken states that are now on the road to a better future.



Actually, domestically Bush has not governed as a conservative. In fact he never claimed to be a "small -government" conservative. Non-defense, discretionary spending has grown enormously under him. McCain on the other hand is a fiscal conservative and has been for decades.
Isn't McCain going to keep tax cuts for people making $250K+? While Obama wants to repeal them?
Doesn't McCain want to give tax breaks for oil companies who made ridiculous profits?
I think McCain is against universal health care, and he wants to give amenesty to mexican illegals.
I remember McCain's funny quote that congress was spending like a drunken sailor, but what action did he take to reign in that spending? he is not the maverick he once was. his foreign policies are going to be like Bush's, stubborn and this will alienate the US from it's allies. the world is getting dangerous and the US needs a uniter not a divider as president. Obama is more of a uniter than McCain. imo
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      08-28-2008, 05:34 PM   #42
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NoKids View Post
Isn't McCain going to keep tax cuts for people making $250K+? While Obama wants to repeal them?
Doesn't McCain want to give tax breaks for oil companies who made ridiculous profits?
I think McCain is against universal health care, and he wants to give amenesty to mexican illegals.
I remember McCain's funny quote that congress was spending like a drunken sailor, but what action did he take to reign in that spending? he is not the maverick he once was. his foreign policies are going to be like Bush's, stubborn and this will alienate the US from it's allies. the world is getting dangerous and the US needs a uniter not a divider as president. Obama is more of a uniter than McCain. imo
I would sure hope that McCain is not going to raise taxes on anyone. Obama on the other hand has voted to raise them on people making as little as $41K a yr.

McCain also wants to lower corporate tax rates across the board, not specifically for oil companies.

McCain has a market based proposal to make health insurance more accessible and he is opposed to any single payer/government health care plan.

What in Obama's history makes you think he is more of a uniter than John McCain. He has never taken a position at odds with the liberal wing of his party on any significant issue. That cannot be said for McCain.
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      08-28-2008, 06:26 PM   #43
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ganeil View Post
I would sure hope that McCain is not going to raise taxes on anyone. Obama on the other hand has voted to raise them on people making as little as $41K a yr.

McCain also wants to lower corporate tax rates across the board, not specifically for oil companies.

McCain has a market based proposal to make health insurance more accessible and he is opposed to any single payer/government health care plan.
You better have a lot of prayer to go along with your hope. Because John McCain's economic plan will require some devine intervention. How do you suppose he's going to lower corporate taxes and fund the war while at the same time reduce the deficit?

I'm just waiting for him to say "read my lips".
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      08-28-2008, 06:51 PM   #44
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BKsBimmer View Post
You better have a lot of prayer to go along with your hope. Because John McCain's economic plan will require some devine intervention. How do you suppose he's going to lower corporate taxes and fund the war while at the same time reduce the deficit?

I'm just waiting for him to say "read my lips".
First, lowering tax rates often increases government revenue. Second, you seem to forget that you can also lower the deficit by cutting spending and few members of Congress have the reputation (well earned) McCain has as a cutter of federal spending.
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