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      08-10-2008, 07:16 PM   #1
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How the Surge Worked

From today's Washington Post:
How The Surge Worked

By Peter Mansoor
Sunday, August 10, 2008; B07

Given the divisive debate over the Iraq war, perhaps it was inevitable that the accomplishments of the recently concluded "surge" would become shrouded in the fog of 30-second sound bites. Too often we hear that the dramatic security improvement in Iraq is due not to the surge but to other, unrelated factors and that the positive developments of the past 18 months have been merely a coincidence.

To realize how misleading these assertions are, one must understand that the "surge" was more than an infusion of reinforcements into Iraq. Of greater importance was the change in the way U.S. forces were employed starting in February 2007, when Gen. David Petraeus ordered them to position themselves with Iraqi forces out in neighborhoods. This repositioning was based on newly published counterinsurgency doctrine that emphasized the protection of the population and recognized that the only way to secure people is to live among them.

To be sure, some units conducted effective counterinsurgency operations before the surge, including Col. H.R. McMaster's 3rd Armored Cavalry Regiment in Tall Afar in 2005 and Col. Sean MacFarland's 1st Brigade Combat Team, 1st Armored Division, in Ramadi in 2006. More generally, however, the coalition approach before 2007 was focused on rapidly shifting security responsibilities to Iraqi forces. As sectarian violence spiraled out of control, it became increasingly evident that Iraqi forces were unable to prevent its spread. By the fall of 2006, it was clear that our strategy was failing, an assessment courageously stated by Gen. George Casey and U.S. Ambassador Zalmay Khalilzad in their year-end review of the Joint Campaign Plan.

The arrival of additional U.S. forces signaled renewed resolve. Sunni tribal leaders, having glimpsed the dismal future in store for their people under a regime controlled by al-Qaeda in Iraq and fearful of abandonment, were ready to throw in their lot with the coalition. The surge did not create the first of the tribal "awakenings," but it was the catalyst for their expansion and eventual success. The tribal revolt took off after the arrival of reinforcements and as U.S. and Iraqi units fought to make the Iraqi people secure.
....
Read the rest.
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      08-13-2008, 09:22 PM   #2
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Thank you for posting that.
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      08-13-2008, 10:03 PM   #3
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Amazing how the proponents of surrender could not stop talking about the war when things were not going well but are strangely silent on the subject now.
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      08-14-2008, 06:15 AM   #4
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The surge worked because the US paid the Insurgents Not to Fight.
http://www.lewrockwell.com/roberts/roberts235.html
http://www.csmonitor.com/2007/1108/p01s04-wome.html
http://www.boston.com/news/world/art...e_for_a_price/


I heard that the US was planning on not paying up anymore.... If that happens then we are "back to the future".

Then there are US 'friendly-fire' (I never thought that any bullets coming ones way were friendly) - that may be the end of the Paid thugs....
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/new...cle3386809.ece
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      08-14-2008, 06:54 AM   #5
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ganeil View Post
Amazing how the proponents of surrender could not stop talking about the war when things were not going well but are strangely silent on the subject now.
"Proponents of surrender"...you funny, empty headed guy...

Absolutely no one has ever said we should surrender - but normal people said we should get the hell out of there and leave them alone and mind our own business and deal with our own (HUGE) issues...
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      08-14-2008, 06:55 AM   #6
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Notable quotes from enfield, is there a pattern? Why so much hate?


Do Iranian lives also have this right - or is it only for Americans?
I don't believe it! I thought that the US only bombed brown people....

The US is a major terrorist state.
Seriously guys! The US also believes in bombing itself!
The US practices State Terrorism.
US is "worser" than the USSR.
By the way - the US has attacked more Countries since WWII than any other Nation on Earth.
The US is made on the genocide of the Native American and the slavery of the African. The US is a country just like any other. It had ability to do great evil in the name of defending itself.
UN is a US stooge. I do not give much heed to the Security Council. THe US commits War Crimes (read War of Aggression) and the UN Security council claps.
American soldiers rape and murder Iraqis every day in an Illegal War of Aggression
He never sang a Beach Boy's song unlike John "Bomb, Bomb, Bomb,.... Bomb, Bomb Iran" McCain.
Then there are US 'friendly-fire' (I never thought that any bullets coming ones way were friendly) - that may be the end of the Paid thugs....
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      08-14-2008, 07:18 AM   #7
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      08-14-2008, 08:45 AM   #8
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Quote:
Originally Posted by enfield View Post
The surge worked because the US paid the Insurgents Not to Fight.
http://www.lewrockwell.com/roberts/roberts235.html
http://www.csmonitor.com/2007/1108/p01s04-wome.html
http://www.boston.com/news/world/art...e_for_a_price/


I heard that the US was planning on not paying up anymore.... If that happens then we are "back to the future".

Then there are US 'friendly-fire' (I never thought that any bullets coming ones way were friendly) - that may be the end of the Paid thugs....
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/new...cle3386809.ece
Most army, police, and security forces are paid aren't they?

Asking young men to forgo getting a job to instead patrol his neighborhood and act as a local security force at great risk to himself and his family without any compensation would be a bit unreasonable don't you think?

The fact that we are going through the tribal structure reflects an appreciation for the native culture that I would have thought "you can't impose western culture" crowd would appreciate.
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      08-16-2008, 03:57 PM   #9
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ganeil View Post
Most army, police, and security forces are paid aren't they?

Asking young men to forgo getting a job to instead patrol his neighborhood and act as a local security force at great risk to himself and his family without any compensation would be a bit unreasonable don't you think?

The fact that we are going through the tribal structure reflects an appreciation for the native culture that I would have thought "you can't impose western culture" crowd would appreciate.
True - but the bottom line is that they are paid not to fight. The surge worked because of a surge of US$

Stop surge of payment = fighting starts.
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      08-16-2008, 04:00 PM   #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JBZ4 View Post
Notable quotes from enfield, is there a pattern? Why so much hate?


Do Iranian lives also have this right - or is it only for Americans?
I don't believe it! I thought that the US only bombed brown people....

The US is a major terrorist state.
Seriously guys! The US also believes in bombing itself!
The US practices State Terrorism.
US is "worser" than the USSR.
By the way - the US has attacked more Countries since WWII than any other Nation on Earth.
The US is made on the genocide of the Native American and the slavery of the African. The US is a country just like any other. It had ability to do great evil in the name of defending itself.
UN is a US stooge. I do not give much heed to the Security Council. THe US commits War Crimes (read War of Aggression) and the UN Security council claps.
American soldiers rape and murder Iraqis every day in an Illegal War of Aggression
He never sang a Beach Boy's song unlike John "Bomb, Bomb, Bomb,.... Bomb, Bomb Iran" McCain.
Then there are US 'friendly-fire' (I never thought that any bullets coming ones way were friendly) - that may be the end of the Paid thugs....
Thanks you for giving me such importance

Each one of those statement is true. You cannot refute the evidence so you resort to name-calling by calling me 'a hater'.

Refute the statements and don't shoot the messenger.
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      08-16-2008, 09:09 PM   #11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by enfield View Post
True - but the bottom line is that they are paid not to fight. The surge worked because of a surge of US$

Stop surge of payment = fighting starts.
No one is being paid NOT to fight. The Sons of Iraq are being paid to secure their neighborhoods. They are being integrated into the Iraq Security Forces or into the civilian workforce as the situation stabilizes.
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      08-17-2008, 04:48 PM   #12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by enfield View Post
Each one of those statement is true. You cannot refute the evidence so you resort to name-calling by calling me 'a hater'.

Refute the statements and don't shoot the messenger.
An old & lame rhetorical trick. Make outrageous, false, and unsubstatiated accusations and then dare someone to disprove them when in fact the onus is on you to prove them.
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      08-18-2008, 10:42 PM   #13
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ganeil View Post
From today's Washington Post:
How The Surge Worked

By Peter Mansoor
Sunday, August 10, 2008; B07

Given the divisive debate over the Iraq war, perhaps it was inevitable that the accomplishments of the recently concluded "surge" would become shrouded in the fog of 30-second sound bites. Too often we hear that the dramatic security improvement in Iraq is due not to the surge but to other, unrelated factors and that the positive developments of the past 18 months have been merely a coincidence.

To realize how misleading these assertions are, one must understand that the "surge" was more than an infusion of reinforcements into Iraq. Of greater importance was the change in the way U.S. forces were employed starting in February 2007, when Gen. David Petraeus ordered them to position themselves with Iraqi forces out in neighborhoods. This repositioning was based on newly published counterinsurgency doctrine that emphasized the protection of the population and recognized that the only way to secure people is to live among them.

To be sure, some units conducted effective counterinsurgency operations before the surge, including Col. H.R. McMaster's 3rd Armored Cavalry Regiment in Tall Afar in 2005 and Col. Sean MacFarland's 1st Brigade Combat Team, 1st Armored Division, in Ramadi in 2006. More generally, however, the coalition approach before 2007 was focused on rapidly shifting security responsibilities to Iraqi forces. As sectarian violence spiraled out of control, it became increasingly evident that Iraqi forces were unable to prevent its spread. By the fall of 2006, it was clear that our strategy was failing, an assessment courageously stated by Gen. George Casey and U.S. Ambassador Zalmay Khalilzad in their year-end review of the Joint Campaign Plan.

The arrival of additional U.S. forces signaled renewed resolve. Sunni tribal leaders, having glimpsed the dismal future in store for their people under a regime controlled by al-Qaeda in Iraq and fearful of abandonment, were ready to throw in their lot with the coalition. The surge did not create the first of the tribal "awakenings," but it was the catalyst for their expansion and eventual success. The tribal revolt took off after the arrival of reinforcements and as U.S. and Iraqi units fought to make the Iraqi people secure.
....
Read the rest.
As if ....

This war began and and has now ended with the surge. It hasn't. We all know the surge was a political Hail Mary pass made necessary by years of incompetent mismanagement by the current administration of a misguided costly unecessary war that the American people were lied into. A war which will undoubtedly go down as the single worst foreign policy blunder in American history. This is the same foreign policy John McCain would continue to pursue ... for a hundred years if necessary. The war in Iraq has left America militarily weaker than before the war, less safe, and less able to confront potential threats in other regions of the world.

As if ...

This war is now over or has been won because of the surge. It's not and it hasn't. Though SOME conditions on the ground have improved as a result of the surge the country is still mired in religious and ethnic strife, suicide bombings and IED's are still constant threats, and Al-Qaida still maintains a presence in Iraq. We broke it real bad and it's nowhere close to being fixed. Whatever progess we've seen as a result of the surge, though welcome, does not make us forget that this war was an avoidable pile of crap we should never have stepped in in the first place.

At best the surge is a work in progress.

HAS THE "SURGE" IN IRAQ WORKED?


by Immanuel Wallerstein
7/16/08

Has the surge really worked? I suppose if one looks exclusively at short-run casualty figures in Iraq, one could argue it did. It would work even better if the United States could send in another 200,000 troops. But the United States does not have another 200,000 troops to send in. And its collaborating countries have been withdrawing their troops, not sending more in. Of course, if you bribe a whole lot of Sunni sheiks, they will be on the U.S. side for the time being. And if you institutionalize ethnic expulsions, as in Baghdad, there is less room for some of the kinds of inter-Iraqi violence that had been previously occurring. And if Moktada al-Sadr thinks it is wiser to bide his time, there will be a temporary reduction in the kind of violence that had been occurring before.

But look at what has happened elsewhere in the Middle East because of the surge. In November of 2006, the United States and NATO had been congratulating themselves on the success of their efforts in Afghanistan. But since then, two things have happened. The number of U.S. casualties has soared, passing now those in Iraq. So has violence against Afghans. Suddenly the Taliban are back in a big way. And now, for the first time since 2001, the pundits are talking about the possibility of the U.S. losing the war in Afghanistan as well as Iraq.

And look at Pakistan. Since November 2006, the country has had relatively democratic elections, which brought to power a legislature hostile to President Musharraf, still the person on whom the Bush regime is relying to pursue a policy favorable to U.S. interests. Musharraf, as a consequence, has been struggling to keep his head above water. One of the ways in which he has done this is to make a tacit deal with the Islamist forces in the northwest frontier region that favor and harbor both al-Qaeda and the Taliban. Recently, these forces almost occupied the largest urban center in the region. They are in any case very strong, and are actively helping the Taliban in Afghanistan.

Then look at Iran. Iran is huffing and puffing. So is Israel about Iran. So is Dick Cheney. The fact is, however, that Iran is stronger than ever. And they have been strengthening in every way their links with the two groups in Iraq upon which U.S. hopes are based -- the al-Maliki government and the Kurds. Iran actually shares many interests with the United States in Afghanistan. But the United States is unable to take advantage of this geopolitical alliance because it insists on seeing Iran as the evil demon in the Middle East.

Now look again at Iraq. The United States had hoped that, with the surge so "successful," they could get Iraq to sign this year a status-of-forces agreement, which would lock in the stationing of U.S. troops and U.S. bases in Iraq for decades to come. Instead, al-Maliki has made it clear that not only won't Iraq sign more than a brief interim agreement but that it won't do even that unless the United States commits to a timetable for withdrawal, something anathema to both Bush and McCain.

I could go on -- about Lebanon, Israel/Palestine, the Gulf states. The fact is that the United States is decidedly weaker everywhere in the Middle East in the eighteen months since the surge began. Has it not been in part, maybe in large part, precisely because of the surge? The Middle East today is like a large geopolitical balloon. If you squeeze it at one point, the air will simply displace itself to another point. And the balloon is getting more fragile all the time. It is on the verge of bursting.
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      08-18-2008, 10:55 PM   #14
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GUESS WHAT COUNTRY IS STILL THE MOST DANGEROUS PLACE ON EARTH ... EVEN AFTER THE "SURGE"

Top 10 Most Dangerous Places on Earth

Published on April 8, 2008 - 571 Comments

In keeping with this site’s love of helping out with holiday plans, this is a list on the top 10 most dangerous places in the world - these are all places you might consider not visiting when planning your next holiday. Some of the items may be a little controversial, but you are, of course, free to ignore our advice and go anyway!

10 - Russia

In this crime-ridden, ex-Soviet state, no longer does the government stuff their Armani suits with rubles, but the vandals and gangsters. The Russian mafia runs amuck, there are more gangsters than police, and a Russian is assassinated every 18 minutes, averaging 84 murders per day in a nation of 143 million. The nucleus of Russian crime is stationed in the Republic of Chechnya, a region within Russia just north of Georgia. Prostitution, drug trafficking, and underground restaurants are arbitrarily controlled by the Chechens. Foreigners are kidnapped more frequently due to the higher ransom allocated. Crimes towards include but are not limited to: pick pocketing wallets, cell phones, cameras, cash, and physical assaults. From superpower to Third World country, think tanks are beginning to speculate if communism really was the cure for Russia. [Source]

9 - Brazil

For anyone traveling to Brazil, it is not a matter of whether you get mugged, it is a matter of when! Grinding poverty still lives alongside incredible wealth in a country that is riding a wave of economic growth. But with prosperity, rates of crime have also soared. Street crime is rampant in parts of Rio de Janeiro and Sao Paolo, and whilst many victims are left unharmed, having a broken bottle put to your throat for your bracelet is not pleasant. The incidences of “quicknappings” has risen in major cities. This involves being abducted and taken to an ATM to pay your ransom. If you can’t pay, thanks to mobile technology, your family is only a call away. Along with street crime, organized criminal groups have waged wars against police and public institutions that were unable to be bribed. Prison riots are brutally suppressed, drugs and narco-terrorism claim civilian casualties and if you survive all that - the piranhas are waiting.

8 - South Africa

Any nation described as the ‘rape capital of the world’ should be one to take extra special care in. Although rape had shown a declining trend to 113.7 in 2004, it increased in 2005 to 118.3 per 100 000. Another damning statistic for South Africa is its appallingly high murder rate. The 2010 World Cup host is consistently in the Top 5 list of countries by homicide rate. Most crime is confined to poor areas but it hasn’t stopped gated communities springing up all over South Africa and armed guards protecting wealthy tourist groups. Farming in South Africa has become one of the most dangerous professions in the world. The murder rate for farmers is 313 per 100 000 - about 8 times the national average. And like anywhere, sex can be very dangerous in South Africa, where more than 10 million people are infected with HIV.

7 - Burundi

This small, densely populated and poor nation has giant problems. A civil war between Hutus and Tutsis tore the nation apart between 1993 and 2006. A ceasefire was declared however most provisions have not been implemented. Mass murder and mayhem compete with environmental problems as the biggest headaches for the people of Burundi. The list of assassinated leaders is extensive, and control of the nation has changed hands numerous times in the last 50 years. Crimes committed by roaming gangs and armed children are risks for visitors. Muggings, carjackings and kidnappings await, so you are advised not to stop the car for souvenirs. Should you be injured or harmed while in Burundi, you may need to be well trained, as local clinics have almost no resources to assist you.

6 - Antarctica

While murder, rape and robbery may not be a big problem in this part of the world, the hostile conditions are. Antarctica is home to some extreme weather conditions, with the mercury regularly dropping below -60 degrees Celsius (-100F) and winds tearing in at more than 100km/hr. If exposed to this weather for more than an hour, you will most certainly die. Antarctica has no hospitals, no food to forage and if you get lost, not a lot of hope. Stay with the tour groups. At least there is a McDonald’s at Scott Base if you manage to find it.

5 - Afghanistan

This nation has for hundreds of years, been one of the worlds most strategically important and lusted after territories. However it remains one of the poorest, undeveloped and unstable. During the Soviet invasion, the Red Army planted more than 12 million landmines in Afghanistan. Hundreds of people are killed, shredded, and maimed each year due to these insidious devices. Following the Soviets came the Taliban, whose control meant women were banned from jobs and universities. In 2001, the United States overthrew the Taliban, but banditry, tribal rivalries and drug related violence has left the nation unstable. Suicide bombings are a constant threat, and nobody in Afghanistan is safe. The most lethal suicide attack occurred in Baghlan Province in November 2007, killing more than 70 people. Did I mention Afghanistan is also the worlds largest supplier of top grade hashish and opium?

4 -Somalia

Somalia is a failed state known for its anarchy, corruption, lack of government, and starvation. Travelers are warned against entering Somalia, the self-proclaimed “independent Republic of Somaliland” or even sailing near the Horn Of Africa. Pirates patrol these waters armed with AK-47s and will seize craft and hold crews to ransom. Inter-clan fighting has claimed thousands of lives in the north of the country, while territorial control in the capital, Mogadishu is carved up between many clans and warlords. Ethiopia attacked Islamic troops in Somalia in late 2006, resulting in hundreds of casualties and the internal displacement of thousands. Heck, if this place is too much for the Marines, what chance do you stand? Make sure your insurance is fully up to date.

3 - Sudan

Desperation, death and destruction are synonymous with Sudan. Terrorism is a mainstay of this nation, which has been controlled by Islamic military regimes since its independence. Some of the worlds most famous killers have earned their stripes in Sudan, finishing with degrees in car-bombing, rocket launching and genocide. Violence is rife in the Darfur region between government-backed militias, government troops and local insurgent groups. Sudan has been in open warfare with Chad partly due to the Darfur conflict. Since 2003, 230,000 Sudanese refugees have fled to eastern Chad from Darfur. More than two million have died during the 2 civil wars that spanned the last 50 years. Along with its bleak desert conditions, Sudan is one of the worst places on the planet.

2 - Colombia

Kidnapping is the main worry in Colombia. There were 2338 kidnappings in Colombia in 1998. Of the victims, 138 were killed by their captors. Ranked Fourth in the world for murders with 69.98/100000 in 2006, the popular targets are mayors, with dozens of them being slain each year. And of course, who can forget cocaine? Colombia supplies 75% of the worlds supply and thanks to Pablo Escobar and the Cali Cartel, paramilitary groups have waged war on the government in a bloody conflict with no end in sight. Even those working in the name of charity are not excluded from the frenzy. In 2005, 5 Catholic missionaries were murdered, down from 9 in 1999. Colombia’s beautiful coast and rugged mountains should make it a tourist paradise, instead it is among the most feared destinations you can visit.


1 - Iraq

It doesn’t matter whether you are George Bush, Pele or Chuck Norris - you are not safe in Iraq. Despite its rich history and its oil reserves, it is a ruined nation that is wracked with violence, despair and confusion. Since 2003, the United States has occupied Iraq which has led to a civil war claiming the lives of more than 650 000 civilians. Al-Qaeda, Sunni insurgents, Shiite security forces, Kurdish rebels, American soldiers, Turkish troops and criminals are involved in a cycle of violence that unfortunately, will not abate any time soon. Improvised Explosive Devices (IEDs), Explosively Formed Penetrators (EFPs) and mines are a constant threat, as are suicide bombers who have slain hundreds. Kidnappings and random killings are reported with almost mind-numbing frequency. Since 2003, 2 million Iraqis have fled to neighboring countries and another 1.9 million in Iraq remain internally displaced. Depleted uranium used as armor-piercing rounds will poison Iraqi civilians and US servicemen for decades. Truly, a hell on earth.
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      08-19-2008, 08:54 AM   #15
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GUESS WHAT COUNTRY IS STILL THE MOST DANGEROUS PLACE ON EARTH ... EVEN AFTER THE "SURGE"

Top 10 Most Dangerous Places on Earth


Wow that is a well sourced and documented article you posted. The citations and footnotes are incredibly thorough.

I wonder if they would have ranked Iraq any less dangerous had they realized that the number of civilian casualties has been a fraction of 600,000, that the study that claimed 600,000+ has been thoroughly discredited, and that depleted uranium is not very dangerous unless someone is shooting you with it?

See here and here.
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      08-19-2008, 12:01 PM   #16
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ganeil View Post
Wow that is a well sourced and documented article you posted. The citations and footnotes are incredibly thorough.

I wonder if they would have ranked Iraq any less dangerous had they realized that the number of civilian casualties has been a fraction of 600,000, that the study that claimed 600,000+ has been thoroughly discredited, and that depleted uranium is not very dangerous unless someone is shooting you with it?

See here and here.
You can try to deflect the argument from whether the surge has really worked to a side issue question about how many civilian casualties there are so far in Iraq, or how dangerous uranium is, but sorry it won't work

"BY ANY COUNT THE TOLL IS MASSIVE".

The day you start recommending vacation travel anywhere in Iraq to your family and friends is the day you have some credibility about "how the surge worked".
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      08-19-2008, 12:38 PM   #17
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Originally Posted by BKsBimmer View Post
The day you start recommending vacation travel anywhere in Iraq to your family and friends is the day you have some credibility about "how the surge worked".
I would not have recommended vacationing in Iraq prior to the current war. That does not mean the surge is not working.

The notion that you are so wedded to the idea of US defeat in Iraq that you cannot acknowledge the tremendous success the US and Iraq have had in the past 18 months in stabilizing that nation is just sad.
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      08-22-2008, 03:06 PM   #18
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This could be an incredibly bad thing:

Quote:
Iraq Takes Aim at U.S.-Tied Sunni Groups’ Leaders

By RICHARD A. OPPEL Jr.

BAGHDAD — The Shiite-dominated government in Iraq is driving out many leaders of Sunni citizen patrols, the groups of former insurgents who joined the American payroll and have been a major pillar in the decline in violence around the nation.

In restive Diyala Province, United States and Iraqi military officials say there were orders to arrest hundreds of members of what is known as the Awakening movement as part of large security operations by the Iraqi military. At least five senior members have been arrested there in recent weeks, leaders of the groups say.

West of Baghdad, former insurgent leaders contend that the Iraqi military is going after 650 Awakening members, many of whom have fled the once-violent area they had kept safe. While the crackdown appears to be focused on a relatively small number of leaders whom the Iraqi government considers the most dangerous, there are influential voices to dismantle the American backed movement entirely.

...
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      09-01-2008, 07:12 AM   #19
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More progress as a result of the Surge Obama said would make things worse:

Quote:
US hands over key Iraq province

The US military is handing Anbar province, once the centre of Iraq's Sunni insurgency, to Iraqi control at a ceremony in the provincial capital.

Anbar province began a transformation in 2006 as former insurgents turned against al-Qaeda and became US allies.

More than a quarter of all US soldiers killed in Iraq have died in Anbar, which is Iraq's biggest province.

With Anbar's transfer Iraqi forces will control security in 11 of the country's 18 provinces.

....
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      09-01-2008, 12:37 PM   #20
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ganeil View Post
More progress as a result of the Surge Obama said would make things worse:
Barack Obama, Nancy Pelosi, Dick Durbin, and John Murtha could still pull a rabbit out of a hat and find a way for us to lose.
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      09-01-2008, 03:28 PM   #21
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the problems with this war is we are crippled by being PC. we are so scared someone on either side may get killed.

its a WAR for goodness sakes. that means you kill them until the unconditionally surrender or they kill you.
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      09-01-2008, 04:19 PM   #22
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How can we call it (or even think of it) as a success after hundreds of thousands of innocent Iraqis are dead, almost 5000 of our soldiers are dead, $1T is gone, our military's been stretched to the max for 5.5 years, our reputation in the World is at the lowest level ever...

I hope it all works and we get the hell out of there...
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