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      08-13-2008, 02:02 PM   #67
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Originally Posted by e90im View Post
Ridiculing provokes thought, which is my intent here. Or just go and be sheep.

You are not used to being questioned and probed. Only way to learn and advance bro...Get used to it.

Good research is when you find something you don't expect. Outstanding research is when you discover something you donít like.

Opinions without evidence are just that.
I know what you're true intentions were. I should have never even gotten involved in this thread. Especially being under other stresses which just amplify my repsonses to a lower level. I take back my last post, as it was unjust and a step down to a personal attack. Although I still feel that your personally attacking myself and other "believers" and not just provoking thought. If that were a case you would be spending more time learning about our beliefs, instead of just reiterating the whole no actual proof.

It's simply impossible for us to see one anothers point of view. Where we come from and the way we grew up. We'll have to agree to disagree and I bow out.
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      08-13-2008, 05:12 PM   #68
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People confusing death and divinity is incredibly awful, but not as bad as people confusing themselves for divinity.
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      08-13-2008, 11:01 PM   #69
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Ridicule is the only weapon which can be used against unintelligible propositions.
- Thomas Jefferson

^^
See now why do you say that I am Ridiculing? I am simply making a point that I agree with this comment and think that it was well said. So now do I have to sit here and write a great response stating my position?

No I do not. Also on a side note you gotta stop reading chapter 3 -- Dawkins.

Karen Owens witty paradox...
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      08-14-2008, 02:54 AM   #70
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When humans killed others in the name of their Gods...........it's wrong.

"Why can't we all get along?"

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      08-15-2008, 12:53 AM   #71
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      08-15-2008, 01:05 AM   #72
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too lazy to read through, but in response to "why did god let 3k americans die on 9/11?" because god has given us free will, and the people "responsible" killed 3k americans, not god.

To me, god has given us the right path in a way, but we are free to go on to the wrong path, in which case, other human beings do, and cause others to suffer.

I am fully accepting in that you're atheist or if you're agnostic. My job is not to judge, but rather express what I know.
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      08-15-2008, 07:47 AM   #73
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Quote:
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too lazy to read through, but in response to "why did god let 3k americans die on 9/11?" because god has given us free will, and the people "responsible" killed 3k americans, not god.

To me, god has given us the right path in a way, but we are free to go on to the wrong path, in which case, other human beings do, and cause others to suffer.

I am fully accepting in that you're atheist or if you're agnostic. My job is not to judge, but rather express what I know.
WOW, great logic, and you "KNOW" it...my 3-year-old believed it...
Can we prove any of that? Since you "KNOW" it (not "feel" it, you must be able to prove it, I assume...)
May be true, I am not saying opposite, just...
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      08-15-2008, 08:27 AM   #74
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just for S&Gs, since i'm bored this morning, i'll post a response.

i disagree with phantom. although man has free will, the sovereignty of God is still in control. man can only do what God allows. trippy ain't it? do we have free will or not?

anyway, God allowed events such as the holocaust and 9/11 to occur because he's really not in the business of keeping everyone safe, living a comfortable life w/o fear. life on this world is temporary, it's like a millisecond compared to eternal life. and this is what God offers to us and that is what He's worried about. God cares about us and loves us on earth or in heaven, but He knows that anything we experience in this world will amount to nothing compared to the joy of being with Him in heaven. so this is what God is in the business of, turning the hearts of people back to Him.

in the Bible, every tragedy like 9/11 or the holocaust was used to turn people back to God. time after time, israel fell away from faith, only to be conquered by their enemies. and after some time under captivity, they would repent, realize their need for and dependence on God, and God would always deliver them.

sounds selfish? yeah, totally. but we're talking about the God of creation here. if anyone is allowed to be self centered, it would be Him. He IS the center.

you see, your definition of who God is isn't based on anything but the figment of your imagination. you've created your own god to argue with believers and that's pretty silly isn't it? how can there be a debate when there is no basic truth that we both commonly believe about God?

it's like arguing whether or not a the color of my shirt is blurnal... except, my definition of what blurnal looks like is different from yours... hmm... pointless.

irregardless, the lack of the ability to simply understand the other view point astounds me. the lack of tolerance of other ideas is disgusting. and the quickness to ridicule and mock other people speaks much of your personality and character.

but remember, Jesus still loves you.
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      08-16-2008, 01:50 AM   #75
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dr325i View Post
WOW, great logic, and you "KNOW" it...my 3-year-old believed it...
Can we prove any of that? Since you "KNOW" it (not "feel" it, you must be able to prove it, I assume...)
May be true, I am not saying opposite, just...
And so you KNOW that god doesn't exist, right?

and ray, i'll respond when I'm not tired LOL...for some reason this is always the last section I look at before sleeping...I'll openly say I'm muslim, so the religious beliefs of all the other cultures are inherited within Islam...
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      08-16-2008, 02:25 AM   #76
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Wow, this thread is ridiculous. I stopped reading halfway through the third page.

I'm agnostic, but I'll let others choose to believe what they want. I think it's wrong, but hell, I'm not gonna go out on a limb to change their beliefs.
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      08-16-2008, 03:50 PM   #77
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Do you?

Like maybe capitalizing beginning of your sentence?
like maybe capitalizing beginning of your incomplete sentence? WTF
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      08-17-2008, 10:22 PM   #78
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Wow, this thread is ridiculous. I stopped reading halfway through the third page.

I believe in agnosticism, but I'll let others choose to believe what they want. I think it's wrong, but hell, I'm not gonna go out on a limb to change their beliefs.
You believe in agnosticism? This is the best double negative Iíve ever heard.

Iím agnostic too, only more vocal, because I donít want this religious ridiculous charade to affect my kids.

Evolution is a fact, kinda like gravity. Bible is a book, kinda like Harry Potter.
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      08-17-2008, 10:23 PM   #79
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like maybe capitalizing beginning of your incomplete sentence? WTF
Can you be more lame?
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      08-17-2008, 10:49 PM   #80
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Quote:
Originally Posted by its ray den View Post
i disagree with phantom. although man has free will, the sovereignty of God is still in control. man can only do what God allows. trippy ain't it? do we have free will or not?
This is why I like ray. He’s got balls and he’ll take responsibility for Thy BS.

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anyway, God allowed events such as the holocaust and 9/11 to occur because he's really not in the business of keeping everyone safe, living a comfortable life w/o fear.
Why not? I mean, he can easily make us live a great life. He’s omnipotent, no?

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life on this world is temporary, it's like a millisecond compared to eternal life.
What do you base this claim on? Harry Potter volume 0.1?

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Originally Posted by its ray den View Post
and this is what God offers to us and that is what He's worried about. God cares about us and loves us on earth or in heaven, but He knows that anything we experience in this world will amount to nothing compared to the joy of being with Him in heaven. so this is what God is in the business of, turning the hearts of people back to Him.
What exactly are you going to do when you die? Sing along with JC for eternity? It seems pretty boring and lame to me? Are you saying that 1.5 billion Muslim are going to roast in hell, just because they weren’t indoctrinated by Christianity like you?


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in the Bible, every tragedy like 9/11 or the holocaust was used to turn people back to God. time after time, israel fell away from faith, only to be conquered by their enemies. and after some time under captivity, they would repent, realize their need for and dependence on God, and God would always deliver them.
Bible is a book. A book!!! 2 thousand year old book!!!

Plural of anecdote is anecdotes, not facts.

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sounds selfish? yeah, totally. but we're talking about the God of creation here. if anyone is allowed to be self centered, it would be Him. He IS the center.
No, you are talking about God, without any evidence to support your claim. And, yeah, fairytale book and countless brainwashing Sundays don’t count as evidence ray.


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Originally Posted by its ray den View Post
you see, your definition of who God is isn't based on anything but the figment of your imagination. you've created your own god to argue with believers and that's pretty silly isn't it? how can there be a debate when there is no basic truth that we both commonly believe about God?
Ahmmm….I hate to point out the obvious, but I don’t believe in “supernatural”, let alone a specific deity…

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it's like arguing whether or not a the color of my shirt is blurnal... except, my definition of what blurnal looks like is different from yours... hmm... pointless.
What you are referring to is the words we assign to things, not laws of Universe. Cosmos works the same in China and Alaska. God works different in every church, mosque and temple…….

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irregardless
I had to look this one up…

ir•re•gard•less

adverb

Definition:

( nonstandard )
Same as regardless

[Early 20th century. Probably blend of irrespective + regardless]


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the lack of the ability to simply understand the other view point astounds me. the lack of tolerance of other ideas is disgusting. and the quickness to ridicule and mock other people speaks much of your personality and character.

but remember, Jesus still loves you
Just because a notion is ancient, it doesn’t make it true!!! Crap, look at acupuncture, homeopathy, astrology….It’s been proven (by facts, experiments and physical evidence) wrong, and gullible flock to it. Religion is an exploited human need. Sheep flock. And that’s the way it goes….
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      08-18-2008, 02:53 PM   #81
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You believe in agnosticism? This is the best double negative I’ve ever heard.

I’m agnostic too, only more vocal, because I don’t want this religious ridiculous charade to affect my kids.
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but I don’t believe in “supernatural”, let alone a specific deity
Actually, I would place you more as Atheist. Being Atheist generally means disbelieving the existence of a supreme being.

In most circles, being Agnostic means that you have no clue if there is a supreme deity or ruling power in the Universe. I probably fall into this category with varying degrees over the years.

What I do not understand is the desire to tell others their faith is wrong. Many people are against organized religion but that should not be compared to personal faith. What someone does on their Sunday morning or just before bed has no bearing on anyone else’s life.
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      08-18-2008, 02:58 PM   #82
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What I do not understand is the desire to tell others their faith is wrong. Many people are against organized religion but that should not be compared to personal faith. What someone does on their Sunday morning or just before bed has no bearing on anyone elseís life.
That's actually me. I'm really not into the whole organized religion thing.
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      08-18-2008, 04:56 PM   #83
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I'll wade in again here...

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Why not? I mean, he can easily make us live a great life. Heís omnipotent, no?
One of the toughest questions out there. One insufficient analogy is the idea that what's comfortable (like sitting on a couch eating ice cream and watching TV) isn't always what's best for us in the long term. If God is our Creator, we should probably assume that he knows what's ultimately best for us, His creatures. But I'll readily admit that's a woefully inadequate explanation, and it doesn't even begin to address questions like whether God (if He exists) is really "good" or "bad," or whether He is really omnipotent, or whether He is capricious... It goes on and on.


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What exactly are you going to do when you die? Sing along with JC for eternity?? It seems pretty boring and lame to me?
If Jesus is Who He claimed to be (the active force behind the creation and ultimate redemption of the universe, with all its beauty, power, energy, life - and by extension all the intellectual, cultural, social, and artistic beauty that mankind has ever produced), then I think it is safe to assume that an eternity with Him would be far from "boring and lame."

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Are you saying that 1.5 billion Muslim are going to roast in hell, just because they werenít indoctrinated by Christianity like you?
The Church in history has too often overstepped its bounds when it comes to answering questions like this. The way I personally think Christians ought to respond is to say that 1) Jesus claimed to be THE way, THE truth, THE life, and that NO one could come to the Father except through Him; and 2) Beyond that, we have no right to look at any person on earth and tell him or her definitively that he or she is going to "roast in hell." As Christians, we believe there is only one way that He has shown us to be with God in His kingdom, but it's not our prerogative to judge who's going there - it's God's.

That obviously looks like a cop out, but that's the best response I've got.

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Bible is a book. A book!!! 2 thousand year old book!!!?
Literary Agism!!!!!!

In all seriousness, I don't see how age has anything to do with it. Besides, parts of it are much older than 2,000 years.

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No, you are talking about God, without any evidence to support your claim.
There's plenty of evidence. Creation itself is evidence. The fact that there is any kind of social order at all is evidence. The very fact that so many of us have a yearning for (and even you have an intellectual curiosity about) spiritual things is evidence. Notice I didn't say "proof." That's why it's called "faith."

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What you are referring to is the words we assign to things, not laws of Universe. Cosmos works the same in China and Alaska. God works different in every church, mosque and templeÖÖ.
Why do you suppose the cosomos works the same everywhere? I think it's because it was designed that way.

If the way people talk about God and act in His name differs (and boy, has it ever differed!), that's a people thing, not a God thing. If He's there, I'm sure He shares this very frustration with you.

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Evolution is a fact, kinda like gravity.
I'm sorry, but this is just absolutely false. Gravity can be empirically tested and proven right now. Evolution cannot. But there's certainly evidence for it, and I don't think it's worth arguing over whether or not biological creatures have evolved. My question is, if that's the way things got here, how did the process start?
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      08-18-2008, 07:13 PM   #84
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I'll wade in again here...
Interesting reading. While I fall on the Agnostic side, it is many of these things you mentioned which keep me from feeling completely contrary to faith. Granted, if I have any faith, it would not fall on a declared religious side but it certainly intrigues. In fact, the more I read in Astrophysics, the more I feel the order could not have randomly occurred.

Anyway, prepare for e90im to apply the sheep title to you; there is a limited arsenal.

Regardless and IMO, these types of beliefs, whether for or against, are personal ideas and something which should not be pressed on someone else.
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      08-18-2008, 08:28 PM   #85
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In fact, the more I read in Astrophysics, the more I feel the order could not have randomly occurred.
funny that you mention astrophysics because after taking that class in college, i felt that it gave more weight to intelligent design than anything else.
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      08-19-2008, 01:23 PM   #86
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You believe in agnosticism? This is the best double negative Iíve ever heard.

Iím agnostic too, only more vocal, because I donít want this religious ridiculous charade to affect my kids.

Evolution is a fact, kinda like gravity. Bible is a book, kinda like Harry Potter.
Yeah my bad.
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      08-21-2008, 02:39 PM   #87
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Please tell me how Michael Jordan defies gravity - does god will him to do it?













On a more serious note, those of you whom are agnostic - you say you don't want religious affiliation, but agree that there is a supreme being?
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      08-21-2008, 02:41 PM   #88
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but agree that there is a supreme being?
Do not beleive but do not say it is not possible.
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