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      08-12-2008, 12:07 PM   #45
Gamecock9901
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Free will. Yes I've heard of it. Are you saying that God can't stop us from doing horrible things, or that he WON'T?

If he can't, he is not a driving force, if he won't he is a voyeuristic sadist, no?
Supposing he could, would you want him to?

If so, whose definition of "horrible things" would you want him to use? Would that include ethnic cleansing? Murder? Assault? Abortion? Cheating on a 5th grade math test? Smoking?

Just trying to suggest that if there really were a God/Creator, then part of his being God would be that he wouldn't necessarily be fully comprehensible to his creatures, and he certainly wouldn't have to live by our rules.
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      08-12-2008, 12:20 PM   #46
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If our freedom and our rights did not come from God, then they must have come from man. If man determines freedom and rights, then man may deny freedom and rights. There would be no freedom and there would be no rights that could be considered inalienable. Then the selection of leadership would become even more critically important.

The only reason we can claim inalienable rights is because these rights are given not by man, but by God.

Without God, the U.S. Constitution may as well be burned and replaced with edict of whomever is the current leader.
Constitution doesn't mention Christianity, or God, at all. It is a secular document outlining the structure of what would become the new government of this nation.

Likewise, the First Amendment to the Constitution, which protects every individual's right to practice his or her own religion — bans government "establishment" or direct support of religion — makes no mention of Christianity.

Yet, 220 years later, an astonishing 55% of respondents to a poll released last week said they believe the Constitution "establishes a Christian nation.
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      08-12-2008, 12:27 PM   #47
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Originally Posted by e90im View Post
Which God handed us our rights? Be specific.
El Shaddai
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      08-12-2008, 12:30 PM   #48
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<----not even sure how that is relevant, but I've always wanted to use it.
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      08-12-2008, 12:31 PM   #49
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Gamecock9901 View Post
Supposing he could, would you want him to?.
Yes. Otherwise he's a voyeuristic thug.

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Originally Posted by Gamecock9901 View Post
If so, whose definition of "horrible things" would you want him to use? Would that include ethnic cleansing? Murder? Assault? Abortion? Cheating on a 5th grade math test? Smoking?.
Notion of supernatural God is weird and bizarre. I am not going to speculate.
Don't kill, rape and steal rules exist across the human race without a specific God. If this weren't rue, you'd have prisons full of atheists.

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Just trying to suggest that if there really were a God/Creator, then part of his being God would be that he wouldn't necessarily be fully comprehensible to his creatures, and he certainly wouldn't have to live by our rules.
Now this is a hypothesis cubed. Not a shred of evidence. Pure speculation.

"God works in mysterious ways" in sheep's clothing.

Doesn't mean you're wrong though. Doesn't make you right either, but highly likely.
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      08-12-2008, 12:36 PM   #50
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Get a job.
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      08-12-2008, 12:38 PM   #51
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Originally Posted by scottwww View Post
El Shaddai
Constitution doesn't mention Christianity, or God, at all. It is a secular document outlining the structure of what would become the new government of this nation.

Likewise, the First Amendment to the Constitution, which protects every individual's right to practice his or her own religion — bans government "establishment" or direct support of religion — makes no mention of Christianity.

Yet, 220 years later, an astonishing 55% of respondents to a poll released last week said they believe the Constitution "establishes a Christian nation.
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      08-12-2008, 12:38 PM   #52
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^^^

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      08-12-2008, 12:39 PM   #53
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Get a job.
I'm on it. Thanks sensei, you have enlightened me.
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      08-12-2008, 12:41 PM   #54
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Yes. Otherwise he's a voyeuristic thug.
Well, I suppose by your definition of "voyeuristic thug."

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Originally Posted by e90im View Post
Notion of supernatural God is weird and bizarre. I am not going to speculate.
Oh, come on! Your previous posts tell me that you're smarter than this self-contradictory set of sentences.

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Originally Posted by e90im View Post
Don't kill, rape and steal rules exist across the human race without a specific God. If this weren't rue, you'd have prisons full of atheists.
Agree completely about those things being fairly universal without regard to a specific religion. What's fascinating to me is that there is so much that humans generally agree on in terms of morality. What gets us into so much conflict is either that we interpret the "rules" differently or that we have second layers of them that aren't quite so universal. To me, that suggests that there is some form of real "truth," we've just collectively mucked up what it is.

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Now this is a hypothesis cubed. Not a shred of evidence. Pure speculation. "God works in mysterious ways" in sheep's clothing.
Sorry, didn't mean to put it in sheep's clothing. Full disclosure is only fair: I do believe in God. Specifically, I believe in the Trinitarian God of Christianity.

Doesn't mean I'm wrong though.
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      08-12-2008, 12:55 PM   #55
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The devil is laughing is arse off from this thread.
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      08-12-2008, 01:13 PM   #56
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The devil is laughing is arse off from this thread.
Satan is probably much more subtle than the way the atheists here present their argument. The atheists that are so blatantly anti-Christian are likely viewed as retarded by Satan. They don't get it. Satan's aim is most likely persuasive deception, rather than arrogant lunacy. We are much more safe with the atheists who present an offensive argument, than we are with the more effective Satanists. Think Wormwood.
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      08-12-2008, 01:14 PM   #57
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I just think that the way the original post was put together is what threw off this thread. The OP should have presented his question/idea in a different and more respectful manner. It's just as stupid to see the believers talk down on the non believers, as it is to see the non-believers talking down on the believers. I mean, it's understandable that both parties feel that the opposing party is full of shit, but thats the problem with cliques, parties, gangs, groups, religions, and so on............they all think that the others(the ones not associating with them) are the idiots. And thats where this all stems from, its the lack of respect for your opponent and failing to view each other points before drawing a conclusion.
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      08-12-2008, 01:38 PM   #58
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Oh, come on! Your previous posts tell me that you're smarter than this self-contradictory set of sentences.
Point taken.


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Originally Posted by Gamecock9901 View Post
Sorry, didn't mean to put it in sheep's clothing. Full disclosure is only fair: I do believe in God. Specifically, I believe in the Trinitarian God of Christianity.

Doesn't mean I'm wrong though.
Wise man said:

Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence. However, extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence.

Here's link to my church. I could be right just as much as you.

http://www.venganza.org/
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      08-12-2008, 01:51 PM   #59
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Ridicule is the only weapon which can be used against unintelligible propositions.
- Thomas Jefferson

^^
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      08-12-2008, 01:58 PM   #60
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Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence. However, extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence.

Here's link to my church. I could be right just as much as you.

http://www.venganza.org/
OK, the chart about temperature and pirates is freakin' hilarious.

I obviously don't think you and I could both be right, but we'll agree to disagree.

Creation is an extraoridinary claim. The intricacy of life is evidence for it, and I think it's extraordinary. But the central claim of Christianity is really resurrection. It should've been awfully easy to squash centuries ago, since all that was necessary was to find the body of an executed criminal. That nobody has ever been able to do that, combined with the fact that dozens of self-proclaimed "eye witnesses" were willing to die rather than renounce the resurrection is circumstantial evidence, but also at least a little extraordinary.

Ultimately, its called "faith" because it can't be proven and a rational person can't be "convinced" with sheer rationality.
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      08-12-2008, 02:07 PM   #61
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God gave us free will. If he were to intervene every time something wrong happened, where should he draw the line? According to the OP, God should have stopped 9/11 and the Holocaust. Using the same logic, shouldn't he stop the murder of innocent people? Then maybe only those who have committed crimes should die. But wait, if God stopped crime from ever happening, then no one should ever die. We would have no use for a government as God would make sure that everything we do was right. We wouldn't need currency, everyone should be willing to help their neighbor out. All of our resources should be stockpiled to be fairly distributed. This sounds an awful like communism. What choice would we have left? Should I have a hamburger or a salad? Wait, a hamburger will make us suffer, salad it is. The kids want to go biking, but that's not allowed either, some of the kids will fall and hurt themselves. Would you be willing to live in a world like that?

God doesn't like us suffering. Isn't that why he made heaven?

Many things that science tells us contradicts the Bible. In my opinion, I think that the Evolution theory and the Big Bang theory are the most controversial. Do we have any proof of these two theories? Aren't these just that? Theories? Princeton defines "theory" as
Quote:
hypothesis: a tentative insight into the natural world; a concept that is not yet verified but that if true would explain certain facts or phenomena; "a scientific hypothesis that survives experimental testing becomes a scientific theory"
According to your definition of science, these theories aren't even science (they are not repeatable). Has man ever reproduced the Big Bang? Evolution? It's convenient that evolution takes billions of years - nothing lives long enough to witness it. These theories only popped up in the mid 1800s to early 1900s. So which side am I supposed to take? At least the Bible has lasted hundreds of years without any contradiction (I use the KJV, so don't start giving me "proof" from other versions - also, please spare me the details of the KJV using "hard to understand" English, the language at that time is a lot more specific and clear than the English used now. I've been reading the KJV since I was a child and I haven't had any problems understanding it.)

Does a fish understand life out of the waters? Can an ant fully comprehend an elephant? Can we say we understand God? Can you say that just because God doesn't stop 9/11 from occurring that he must be sadistic or voyeuristic? For such a "scientific" guy, you fail to convince me.
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      08-12-2008, 02:16 PM   #62
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Quote:
Originally Posted by e90im View Post
Ridicule is the only weapon which can be used against unintelligible propositions.
- Thomas Jefferson

^^
Ridiculing is just as juvenile and childish as hatred, and it's the same thing as poking fun at. You're truly unreasonable.

You've made it very clear that there are no other opinions that are even worthy to discuss. You've discussed nothing here, just exploited your ego. Which is obviously very large.
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      08-12-2008, 03:11 PM   #63
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God gave us free will. If he were to intervene every time something wrong happened, where should he draw the line? According to the OP, God should have stopped 9/11 and the Holocaust. Using the same logic, shouldn't he stop the murder of innocent people? Then maybe only those who have committed crimes should die. But wait, if God stopped crime from ever happening, then no one should ever die. We would have no use for a government as God would make sure that everything we do was right. We wouldn't need currency, everyone should be willing to help their neighbor out. All of our resources should be stockpiled to be fairly distributed. This sounds an awful like communism. What choice would we have left? Should I have a hamburger or a salad? Wait, a hamburger will make us suffer, salad it is. The kids want to go biking, but that's not allowed either, some of the kids will fall and hurt themselves. Would you be willing to live in a world like that?

God doesn't like us suffering. Isn't that why he made heaven?

Many things that science tells us contradicts the Bible. In my opinion, I think that the Evolution theory and the Big Bang theory are the most controversial. Do we have any proof of these two theories? Aren't these just that? Theories? Princeton defines "theory" as According to your definition of science, these theories aren't even science (they are not repeatable). Has man ever reproduced the Big Bang? Evolution? It's convenient that evolution takes billions of years - nothing lives long enough to witness it. These theories only popped up in the mid 1800s to early 1900s. So which side am I supposed to take? At least the Bible has lasted hundreds of years without any contradiction (I use the KJV, so don't start giving me "proof" from other versions - also, please spare me the details of the KJV using "hard to understand" English, the language at that time is a lot more specific and clear than the English used now. I've been reading the KJV since I was a child and I haven't had any problems understanding it.)

Does a fish understand life out of the waters? Can an ant fully comprehend an elephant? Can we say we understand God? Can you say that just because God doesn't stop 9/11 from occurring that he must be sadistic or voyeuristic? For such a "scientific" guy, you fail to convince me.
What???
Please give a proof for one (I am not asking all) of your claims...

Otherwise, go preach and brainwash your kids on this crap, not here...

EDIT: Actually, stay here, we need more jokes, this is becoming to serious...
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      08-12-2008, 03:25 PM   #64
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Ridicule is the only weapon which can be used against unintelligible propositions.
- Thomas Jefferson
Not one of Ole' Tom's better quotes, IMO.
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      08-12-2008, 07:40 PM   #65
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Ridiculing is just as juvenile and childish as hatred, and it's the same thing as poking fun at. You're truly unreasonable.

You've made it very clear that there are no other opinions that are even worthy to discuss. You've discussed nothing here, just exploited your ego. Which is obviously very large.

Ridiculing provokes thought, which is my intent here. Or just go and be sheep.

You are not used to being questioned and probed. Only way to learn and advance bro...Get used to it.

Good research is when you find something you don't expect. Outstanding research is when you discover something you don’t like.

Opinions without evidence are just that.
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      08-12-2008, 08:02 PM   #66
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God gave us free will. If he were to intervene every time something wrong happened, where should he draw the line? According to the OP, God should have stopped 9/11 and the Holocaust. Using the same logic, shouldn't he stop the murder of innocent people? Then maybe only those who have committed crimes should die. But wait, if God stopped crime from ever happening, then no one should ever die. We would have no use for a government as God would make sure that everything we do was right. We wouldn't need currency, everyone should be willing to help their neighbor out. All of our resources should be stockpiled to be fairly distributed. This sounds an awful like communism. What choice would we have left? Should I have a hamburger or a salad? Wait, a hamburger will make us suffer, salad it is. The kids want to go biking, but that's not allowed either, some of the kids will fall and hurt themselves. Would you be willing to live in a world like that?

God doesn't like us suffering. Isn't that why he made heaven?

Many things that science tells us contradicts the Bible. In my opinion, I think that the Evolution theory and the Big Bang theory are the most controversial. Do we have any proof of these two theories? Aren't these just that? Theories? Princeton defines "theory" as According to your definition of science, these theories aren't even science (they are not repeatable). Has man ever reproduced the Big Bang? Evolution? It's convenient that evolution takes billions of years - nothing lives long enough to witness it. These theories only popped up in the mid 1800s to early 1900s. So which side am I supposed to take? At least the Bible has lasted hundreds of years without any contradiction (I use the KJV, so don't start giving me "proof" from other versions - also, please spare me the details of the KJV using "hard to understand" English, the language at that time is a lot more specific and clear than the English used now. I've been reading the KJV since I was a child and I haven't had any problems understanding it.)

Does a fish understand life out of the waters? Can an ant fully comprehend an elephant? Can we say we understand God? Can you say that just because God doesn't stop 9/11 from occurring that he must be sadistic or voyeuristic? For such a "scientific" guy, you fail to convince me.
Awesome....OK, response to this post requires an equivalent of a root canal. Reminds me of scotty.

I'll respond in a cople of days when I get back.
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