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View Poll Results: what caliper
stock single piston 49 36.84%
Brembo multi piston 77 57.89%
brakes slow the car down... the point is to make it go Faster!!!!... who needs um... 7 5.26%
Voters: 133. You may not vote on this poll

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      08-18-2008, 01:25 PM   #67
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Originally Posted by sayemthree View Post
I ran my e46 M3 with stock brakes and Hawk HP plus pads. they held up fine at Cal Speedway and laguna seca - both hard on brakes.
Not to pick or get personal, that is not my intent, but those are not track pads. If you can use the HP+ on tracks that are known to be hard on brakes, then you are not drivning fast enough or generating enough heat to warrant better calipers. The HP+ is a street/autox/"lightHPDE" but a "track pad"...it is not.


The other thing I noticed, while looking to improve the brakes, is the cost of pads.... $400 for front pads!!!! WTF!!!! I"ll no doubt buy a set of Stoptech calipers, as the savings on pads alone will make up for the kit in 2 track seasons.

Again, please find "one" competitive race team....not a competitor in the24hrsofLemons...that uses single-piston-sliders.... just one.

Be good,
TomK
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      08-18-2008, 04:32 PM   #68
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ace996 View Post

Again, please find "one" competitive race team....not a competitor in the24hrsofLemons...that uses single-piston-sliders.... just one.

Be good,
TomK

i did that race a couple weeks ago!!



retarted fun!
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      08-18-2008, 04:54 PM   #69
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ace996 View Post
Not to pick or get personal, that is not my intent, but those are not track pads. If you can use the HP+ on tracks that are known to be hard on brakes, then you are not drivning fast enough or generating enough heat to warrant better calipers. The HP+ is a street/autox/"lightHPDE" but a "track pad"...it is not.


The other thing I noticed, while looking to improve the brakes, is the cost of pads.... $400 for front pads!!!! WTF!!!! I"ll no doubt buy a set of Stoptech calipers, as the savings on pads alone will make up for the kit in 2 track seasons.

Again, please find "one" competitive race team....not a competitor in the24hrsofLemons...that uses single-piston-sliders.... just one.

Be good,
TomK
so you have used the HP plus for an extended time?
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      08-18-2008, 08:18 PM   #70
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Originally Posted by sayemthree View Post
so you have used the HP plus for an extended time?
Yes, I have used the HP+ on a magnacharged Z06 (550hp), on the stock "twin-piston"-sliding caliper. They were good street pads but could not handle the abuse of the track, even on Falken Azenis street tires.

The only reason I used the stock calipers on the Z06 was that they could be replaced every year for $500 (for the set) ....well, that and rotors were $25 each at NAPA. Imagine that....$600 for new calipers and rotors... I miss that car...
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      08-18-2008, 10:45 PM   #71
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ace996 View Post
Yes, I have used the HP+ on a magnacharged Z06 (550hp), on the stock "twin-piston"-sliding caliper. They were good street pads but could not handle the abuse of the track, even on Falken Azenis street tires.

The only reason I used the stock calipers on the Z06 was that they could be replaced every year for $500 (for the set) ....well, that and rotors were $25 each at NAPA. Imagine that....$600 for new calipers and rotors... I miss that car...

wow - cheap parts, nice. I had a friend that also toasted his stock z06 brakes on Cal speedway in half a day. its all about managing the resources. and there is just as much if not more time to be made by breaking under control and carry the higher entry and mid corner speed than hammering the brakes really hard and not being able to control turn in at the limit. I had good luck for years with HP plus on my e46 M3 in 20 to 30 minute session. I am gonna try track pads first on my e92. if they fail, then maybe a BBK.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ace996

Again, please find "one" competitive race team....not a competitor in the24hrsofLemons...that uses single-piston-sliders.... just one.

Be good,
TomK
let;s see:
1. BMW CCA club racing stock class
2. spec Miata
3. NASA spec e30 and probably many other NASA classes
4. SPeedvision touring and GT class (at least several years ago - havent followed recently)
All require stock calipers.

I agree if the rules allow a BBK one would be stupid not to use it for racing. but some rules don't allow a BBK. As I am only tracking not racing I think stock brakes will be fine for the e92.
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      08-18-2008, 10:59 PM   #72
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sayemthree View Post
I agree if the rules allow a BBK one would be stupid not to use it for racing. - yes, or if the factory offered them as a "no charge" option...yet still there are roughly 50% of the pollsters that just don't get it... but some rules don't allow a BBK-yes...but EVERYTIME an upgrade is allowed, they take it. As I am only tracking not racing I think stock brakes will be fine for the e92.
Yep, stock brakes can work...but is the M3 a car that should settle with single-piston sliders?...IMHO, I think not.

Leh's original question...go back to it and your writing above answers it perfectly...
"I agree if the rules allow a BBK one would be stupid not to use it"
...for racing, tracking,autoxing, or DDing... any use.

I will try to work with the stock sliders, though, as the BBK funds just aren't there yet.

Be good,
TomK
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      08-19-2008, 01:17 AM   #73
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ace996 View Post

The other thing I noticed, while looking to improve the brakes, is the cost of pads.... $400 for front pads!!!! WTF!!!! I"ll no doubt buy a set of Stoptech calipers, as the savings on pads alone will make up for the kit in 2 track seasons.

Be good,
TomK
So, if I am reading this right, Brembo BBK pads are $400 for a pair. Stoptech is coming out with calipers which will fit over the stock rotors and will use stock pads therefore saving large amount of $$$? Sounds pretty good. So when will the Stoptechs be available? And if Hawk HP+s are not good track pads then what would you recommend?
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      08-19-2008, 01:43 AM   #74
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Quote:
Originally Posted by armyav8tor View Post
So, if I am reading this right, Brembo BBK pads are $400 for a pair. Stoptech is coming out with calipers which will fit over the stock rotors and will use stock pads therefore saving large amount of $$$? Sounds pretty good. So when will the Stoptechs be available? And if Hawk HP+s are not good track pads then what would you recommend?
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      08-19-2008, 09:57 AM   #75
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Quote:
Originally Posted by armyav8tor View Post
So, if I am reading this right, Brembo BBK pads are $400 for a pair. Stoptech is coming out with calipers which will fit over the stock rotors and will use stock pads therefore saving large amount of $$$? Sounds pretty good. So when will the Stoptechs be available? And if Hawk HP+s are not good track pads then what would you recommend?
No, I didn'tmake myself clear....

Pagid front pads for the STOCK calipers are $400.

Stoptech usually releases replacement calipers when the rotor is sufficient, so cost is less. Pads for the Stoptech's are also in the range of $400 (for 6-piston, $300 for 4-piston)but should last longer(less taper, larger surface area).

I'll have a go at it with the stock hardware at first, but if I'm going to run into issues...as these "sliders" often do, then I'll bite the bullet and upgrade.

Be good,
TomK
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      08-19-2008, 11:05 AM   #76
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ace996 View Post
No, I didn'tmake myself clear....

Pagid front pads for the STOCK calipers are $400.

Stoptech usually releases replacement calipers when the rotor is sufficient, so cost is less. Pads for the Stoptech's are also in the range of $400 (for 6-piston, $300 for 4-piston)but should last longer(less taper, larger surface area).

I'll have a go at it with the stock hardware at first, but if I'm going to run into issues...as these "sliders" often do, then I'll bite the bullet and upgrade.

Be good,
TomK
Thanks for clearing it up for me.
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      08-21-2008, 03:08 AM   #77
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Quote:
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I will try to work with the stock sliders, though, as the BBK funds just aren't there yet.
exactly my point. I am not racing , just tracking the car.

anyways my vote was for: brakes slow the car down... the point is to make it go Faster!!!!... who needs um...
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      08-21-2008, 03:28 AM   #78
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Throw out the anchor!!

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exactly my point. I am not racing , just tracking the car.

anyways my vote was for: brakes slow the car down... the point is to make it go Faster!!!!... who needs um...
Am I the only one that has ever heard the best way to improve lap times is to out-brake and out-handle the competition? 414 ground-pounding, panty-wetting horses can come in handy, too.

I have a bunch of info to share on why Brembo 6/4 kit is far superior to the OE brakes. Stay tuned.

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      08-21-2008, 01:36 PM   #79
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of course - out braking the compition is the best thing! especially when you sell BBK's!!!

out braking is great for passing going into a corner too. but exit speed is more important than out braking. also most anyone can stand hard on the brakes that takes little skill - so more time is usually made on entry speed and mid corner speed to.

sorry - brakes just slow ya down!
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      08-21-2008, 02:36 PM   #80
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sayemthree View Post
of course - out braking the compition is the best thing! especially when you sell BBK's!!!

out braking is great for passing going into a corner too. but exit speed is more important than out braking. also most anyone can stand hard on the brakes that takes little skill - so more time is usually made on entry speed and mid corner speed to.

sorry - brakes just slow ya down!
most passes are pretty much done During braking.. in the highest forms of road racing...
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      08-21-2008, 02:59 PM   #81
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OK, I will chime in, why not.

On my E36 M3, I had some brake issues with the stock brakes....but only at the track on HOT (110 degrees) day, and long run times. So, I bought a set of StopTechs for the front. I no longer had heat issues after that.

Did the car stop better? No, I could not tell the difference in stopping distance with pad compound being the same.

Did the brakes have better "feel"? A little. I got a bit more feedback from the brakes, but I did install SS lines when I swapped, so that could account for it.

Where they easier to modulate? Yes. For me at least. Again, the SS lines could have influenced that.

Did the increase in rotor surface area and pad size seem keep the heat levels more managable? Yes. That was the big difference I noticed.

As others have stated, the stock set-up is more than adequate for the street and mild tracking. I have no plans to upgrade the braking system. If I had a shit load of cash sitting in the bank, I might. Why not, if you got tons of cash to blow...but it would be more of a bling thing than a performance thing for MOST people, for how MOST people drive the car.

It appears that the stock rotor/caliper design will be more than adequate for MOST track'ers with upgraded pads. However, time will tell the tale on this....I have yet to track the car.....so it is hard to say....but they appear (on paper) to be more than adequate.

After I finish my break-in, I plan on hitting a few events. I will be sure to provide feedback on many aspects of the car at that point.
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      08-21-2008, 05:21 PM   #82
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most passes are pretty much done During braking.. in the highest forms of road racing...
very very true - usually because the passing car got a better exit speed out of the corner leading on to the straight with hard braking at the end of it .
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      08-21-2008, 05:41 PM   #83
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Quote:
Originally Posted by KINGLEH View Post
most passes are pretty much done During braking.. in the highest forms of road racing...
This is true, but you should point out that it is usually done by stealing the inside line. Both cars end up going through the corner slower, and the next car back gets to make up some time.
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      08-21-2008, 09:05 PM   #84
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sayemthree View Post

out braking is great for passing going into a corner too. but exit speed is more important than out braking. also most anyone can stand hard on the brakes that takes little skill - so more time is usually made on entry speed and mid corner speed to.

sorry - brakes just slow ya down!
Come on, man... do you really believe this? Either this is all a little tongue-in-cheek or you don't have that much experience.
Dancing on the line of friction whilst trail-braking into a turn requires more skill than you may realize.

Are you still using stock pads on the track?
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      08-21-2008, 09:58 PM   #85
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Brembo BBK FTW

Quote:
Originally Posted by sayemthree View Post
of course - out braking the compition is the best thing! especially when you sell BBK's!!!

out braking is great for passing going into a corner too. but exit speed is more important than out braking. also most anyone can stand hard on the brakes that takes little skill - so more time is usually made on entry speed and mid corner speed to.

sorry - brakes just slow ya down!
Yup, I admit, if you guys think a Brembo BBK is the way to go, I might benefit. That's assuming you bestow the pleasure on me of being the one to hook you up with a BBK.

The ONLY problem I have with the Brembo 380mm 6/4 BBK is that it won't fit inside most 18" wheels. HOWEVER...I've spent the past 3 days researching, emailing cross-sections (aka templates) of the Brembo BBk, and talking to the wheel manufacturers and distributors I deal with, in an effort to do ALL the legwork to find a solution to the 15" BBK/18" track wheel problem. I'm having some pretty good success, and eliminating some wheels that just won't work in 18s. For some, the Brembo BBK/wheel dilemma will be a deal-breaker. One wheel the definitely will NOT work is the stock 18s. If you have stock 18s on your E92 M3, you're going to have to buy the BBK AND wheels, so it will be quite expensive.

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      08-21-2008, 10:45 PM   #86
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Quote:
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Yup, I admit, if you guys think a Brembo BBK is the way to go, I might benefit. That's assuming you bestow the pleasure on me of being the one to hook you up with a BBK.

The ONLY problem I have with the Brembo 380mm 6/4 BBK is that it won't fit inside most 18" wheels. HOWEVER...I've spent the past 3 days researching, emailing cross-sections (aka templates) of the Brembo BBk, and talking to the wheel manufacturers and distributors I deal with, in an effort to do ALL the legwork to find a solution to the 15" BBK/18" track wheel problem. I'm having some pretty good success, and eliminating some wheels that just won't work in 18s. For some, the Brembo BBK/wheel dilemma will be a deal-breaker. One wheel the definitely will NOT work is the stock 18s. If you have stock 18s on your E92 M3, you're going to have to buy the BBK AND wheels, so it will be quite expensive.

Bob
Thanks for your honesty, Bob.
I'm not a BBK kinda guy, but researching what wheels will work with your kit will generate a lot of good will. Publish it soon.
Good Luck.
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      08-21-2008, 11:46 PM   #87
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What we really need, is upgraded calipers. The rotors are not insufficient, so really, just a set of calipers will do it...and they might...just might....fit with the smaller wheels. If not, ten the 19" are what I have and I don't mind.

Thanks for your help,
TomK
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      08-21-2008, 11:55 PM   #88
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Quote:
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Come on, man... do you really believe this? Either this is all a little tongue-in-cheek or you don't have that much experience.
Dancing on the line of friction whilst trail-braking into a turn requires more skill than you may realize.

Are you still using stock pads on the track?
yes - still stock - I will find out soon if they fry at Cal Speedway. my e46 m3 with stock pads had bad fade and warped the rotors there. after going to Hawwk pads the stock brakes were fine with new fluid once a year. been tracking and autocross since 1994.

and yes - trail braking requires skill - but its not full-on at the limit braking so it doesnt really matter if you had stock or BBK to trail brake. except that a multi piston caliper maygive you better brake feel.

what takes the most skill is braking to the proper maximized entry speed, while keeping the car balanced. and maximizing mid corner speed and therefor getting the most out of exit speed. most peeps slow down the car too much at braking and loose too much entry speed.

as far as "who needs brakes they just slow you down" its sorta T in C but its also close to a famous Quote by Jackie Stewert on why he was faster than many in his day. he used less brakes and there fore higher entry and midcorner speed.
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