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      08-15-2008, 08:40 AM   #23
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The C63 isn't as one dimensional as you think, kit it out with the performance pack which includes stiffer suspension and the all important LSD and you have something which will get pretty close to the M3 on the track. Basically what you loosely have then is something approaching a CLK Black series with 4 doors and we all know how well they handle.
But the package comes with a price and make the ride much stiffer.

http://www.autocar.co.uk/CarReviews/...e-Pack/234412/

I dont know but the M3 sounds more balanced between sport and comfort than the C63 does.
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      08-15-2008, 09:30 AM   #24
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But the package comes with a price and make the ride much stiffer.

http://www.autocar.co.uk/CarReviews/...e-Pack/234412/

I dont know but the M3 sounds more balanced between sport and comfort than the C63 does.

That is the AMG Equation....big engine, slap in bigger brakes, springs, dampeners.... They don't tune the suspension like ///M does

Unfortuately ///M is going down the toilet....
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      08-15-2008, 11:01 AM   #25
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Originally Posted by footie View Post
The C63 isn't as one dimensional as you think, kit it out with the performance pack which includes stiffer suspension and the all important LSD and you have something which will get pretty close to the M3 on the track. Basically what you loosely have then is something approaching a CLK Black series with 4 doors and we all know how well they handle.
Sure, but I was talking about cars right off the showroom floor. Of course most of us on the forum will likely mod our vehicles, however, if you put the same money into the suspension of a C63 and put it into engine mods (perhaps supercharging) on the M3 you would still have what I believe as a better car in the M3. A car that still would be equal or better in handling and equal or better starightline performance. Finally, IMHO, the M3 wins the beauty contest also.
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      08-15-2008, 11:06 AM   #26
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That is the AMG Equation....big engine, slap in bigger brakes, springs, dampeners.... They don't tune the suspension like ///M does

Unfortuately ///M is going down the toilet....
Why do you say that?

The new M3 is awesome, although I did read something about them building an M version of the X5 which is a departure from the M tradition. But that is no worse then AMG, who has been building AMG versions of SUVs for some time.
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      08-15-2008, 11:43 AM   #27
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Sure, but I was talking about cars right off the showroom floor. Of course most of us on the forum will likely mod our vehicles, however, if you put the same money into the suspension of a C63 and put it into engine mods (perhaps supercharging) on the M3 you would still have what I believe as a better car in the M3. A car that still would be equal or better in handling and equal or better starightline performance. Finally, IMHO, the M3 wins the beauty contest also.
Even right off the showroom floor. The C63 is not one dimensional. If the C63 wasn't a serious competition for the M3, I don't think it will be mentioned that much on this forum (more than any other AMG).
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      08-15-2008, 12:39 PM   #28
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Originally Posted by M3 E93 in LA View Post
Sure, but I was talking about cars right off the showroom floor. Of course most of us on the forum will likely mod our vehicles, however, if you put the same money into the suspension of a C63 and put it into engine mods (perhaps supercharging) on the M3 you would still have what I believe as a better car in the M3. A car that still would be equal or better in handling and equal or better starightline performance. Finally, IMHO, the M3 wins the beauty contest also.
The performance package I am talking about is like any other option you list when ordering you car from the factory. It's not a dealer add on or something from a tuning house so I class that as something which meets the criteria. With this option you have a C63 which might be closer to the M3 than any of us dare think of.

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They don't tune the suspension like ///M does
Not wanting to disagree just because it's you but you are wrong TB, the suspension was developed on the ring and originally was to be called the nurburgring package.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Just_me
But the package comes with a price and make the ride much stiffer.
You are correct, the package does cost extra but to the kind of person buying a C63 such an option is a small price given the increase in overall balance. The package also makes the ride harder but according to people I know it's not as bad as some here are making out, I guess it's one of those things you have to try yourself and see if you can accept the decrease in ride quality for the increase in overall performance.
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      08-15-2008, 05:35 PM   #29
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Originally Posted by M3 E93 in LA View Post
Why do you say that?

The new M3 is awesome, although I did read something about them building an M version of the X5 which is a departure from the M tradition. But that is no worse then AMG, who has been building AMG versions of SUVs for some time.
I am talking about the next generation of M cars, the "F" series of cars. BMW is selling out my friend. They are choosing to turbo M cars and spending less on R&D. This is the end of ///M


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Not wanting to disagree just because it's you but you are wrong TB, the suspension was developed on the ring and originally was to be called the nurburgring package.

Any monkey can drive a car around the 'ring and say it is tuned. If you want to compare ///M suspension tuning versus AMG suspension "tuning", you are just going to look silly.
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      08-15-2008, 05:51 PM   #30
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Any monkey can drive a car around the 'ring and say it is tuned. If you want to compare ///M suspension tuning versus AMG suspension "tuning", you are just going to look silly.
How is Mercedes AMG doing in the DTM? Or for that matter how have they done for the last 6+ years?

Seriously TB don't think for one moment that BMW have the monopoly of fine chassis designers. That is not to say Mercedes are any better or that the C63 with the said package will be any better than the M3 but I wouldn't say that their efforts have been in vein.

Need I bring up the R8 as an example, you and many more would have said Audi couldn't design a car the handle but here we are with the R8 posting times as good as the mighty GTR on many a track with less power and torque plus an awd system which hasn't half the technology. Point being Mercedes have the man-power and the skills to get the job done and when the finally start to see some comparison tests with this package on board the Merc I wouldn't be surprised to find the Merc winning the odd one or two.
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      08-15-2008, 06:03 PM   #31
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How is Mercedes AMG doing in the DTM? Or for that matter how have they done for the last 6+ years?

Seriously TB don't think for one moment that BMW have the monopoly of fine chassis designers. That is not to say Mercedes are any better or that the C63 with the said package will be any better than the M3 but I wouldn't say that their efforts have been in vein.

Are you just a dumbass always looking to bash BMW?

You are comparing a works DTM race team to production AMG cars?? Of course BMW doesn't have a monopoly on suspension tuning. AMG doesn't spend the money that BMW ///M use to in suspension tuning.

That being said, BMW ///M is going down the toilet with their priorities. They soon will handle like crap as any AMG today.
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      08-16-2008, 06:36 AM   #32
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Are you just a dumbass always looking to bash BMW?
So being a realist and highlighting the fact that other manufacturers are equally as good means I am bashing BMW. Seriously TB, be a bit more mature and see things more objectively than that.

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You are comparing a works DTM race team to production AMG cars?? Of course BMW doesn't have a monopoly on suspension tuning. AMG doesn't spend the money that BMW ///M use to in suspension tuning.
So you think BMW like any other don't use the expertise of their racing teams when developing their highest performance version...............right.

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That being said, BMW ///M is going down the toilet with their priorities. They soon will handle like crap as any AMG today.
Is this according to the world ruled by T-Bone. Just because they are bringing their philosophy to different body styles does not mean that their core range will be any less because of this. Look at Porsche, has the Cayenne made the 997 and Cayman any less brilliant.
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      08-16-2008, 08:07 AM   #33
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So being a realist and highlighting the fact that other manufacturers are equally as good means I am bashing BMW. Seriously TB, be a bit more mature and see things more objectively than that.



So you think BMW like any other don't use the expertise of their racing teams when developing their highest performance version...............right.



Is this according to the world ruled by T-Bone. Just because they are bringing their philosophy to different body styles does not mean that their core range will be any less because of this. Look at Porsche, has the Cayenne made the 997 and Cayman any less brilliant.

You have a nack for not addressing issues raised in threads. You deliberately divert attention to other issues when your bullshit is confronted.

You must be a politician.
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      08-16-2008, 11:26 AM   #34
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You have a nack for not addressing issues raised in threads. You deliberately divert attention to other issues when your bullshit is confronted.

You must be a politician.
What question have I not addressed and as you say, divert attention of on this thread. ?????????

First you posting a video of the race, then someone else stated they would pick an AMG C63 over the M3, things progressed to the point when someone rightly said the stock C63 was great for straight racing but the M3 was the track star. I was only highlighting the fact that Mercedes offer a performance package which was meant to be close to if not the equal to the M3 on the track.

I'm at a lost as to how I have deliberately divert attention to other issues.

If you don't agree what my thinking then simple disagree, don't talk silly and post stuff like your latest reply. Seriously TB I expect better from you.
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      08-17-2008, 07:54 AM   #35
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You are correct, the package does cost extra but to the kind of person buying a C63 such an option is a small price given the increase in overall balance. The package also makes the ride harder but according to people I know it's not as bad as some here are making out, I guess it's one of those things you have to try yourself and see if you can accept the decrease in ride quality for the increase in overall performance.
But the difference is that C63 AMG is getting negative comments on the ride, not the M3 in various carreviews.

I'll be driving the C63 myself in a couple of weeks so I will judge the car on my own.
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      08-17-2008, 11:16 AM   #36
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What question have I not addressed and as you say, divert attention of on this thread. ?????????

First you posting a video of the race, then someone else stated they would pick an AMG C63 over the M3, things progressed to the point when someone rightly said the stock C63 was great for straight racing but the M3 was the track star. I was only highlighting the fact that Mercedes offer a performance package which was meant to be close to if not the equal to the M3 on the track.

I'm at a lost as to how I have deliberately divert attention to other issues.

If you don't agree what my thinking then simple disagree, don't talk silly and post stuff like your latest reply. Seriously TB I expect better from you.

You are plain wrong when it comes to anything related to technical aspects of cars.

Just enjoy your ignorance and perhaps a few weeks in your new M3 you will get some perspective on AMG / Audi's mush.
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      08-17-2008, 12:27 PM   #37
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You are plain wrong when it comes to anything related to technical aspects of cars.

Just enjoy your ignorance and perhaps a few weeks in your new M3 you will get some perspective on AMG / Audi's mush.

If I didn't know better I would swear you and swamp were one in the same person, trying to run someones opinion down by way of technical knowledge. That is very sad to think that when you disagree with someone and can't argue your case you turn to insults.

Maybe my knowledge of what AMG and Audi do with their respective development programmes are more informed than yours.

I choose the M3 purely because I like the way the new one drives, it's a better balanced car in terms of luxury, quality and ability than any previous M3 and that appealed to me more than ever before. Whether I will stay with the brand now I am here is too early to say, I enjoyed my time with the S5 and every other Audi before it. If they produce another R8 quality product in my price and practicality bracket then who knows, I might be back driving another Audi.

Your constant knocking other brand simply because they aren't BMW or an M comes across all fanboy and loses you credibility among the normal members of the site. I might not be as technical as some but I know the finer points of what makes a good car and though BMW clearly have these abilities there is numerous others out there equally as good.

Like I said, you have your opinions and I have mine.
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      08-17-2008, 02:49 PM   #38
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If I didn't know better I would swear you and swamp were one in the same person, trying to run someones opinion down by way of technical knowledge. That is very sad to think that when you disagree with someone and can't argue your case you turn to insults.

Maybe my knowledge of what AMG and Audi do with their respective development programmes are more informed than yours.

I choose the M3 purely because I like the way the new one drives, it's a better balanced car in terms of luxury, quality and ability than any previous M3 and that appealed to me more than ever before. Whether I will stay with the brand now I am here is too early to say, I enjoyed my time with the S5 and every other Audi before it. If they produce another R8 quality product in my price and practicality bracket then who knows, I might be back driving another Audi.

Your constant knocking other brand simply because they aren't BMW or an M comes across all fanboy and loses you credibility among the normal members of the site. I might not be as technical as some but I know the finer points of what makes a good car and though BMW clearly have these abilities there is numerous others out there equally as good.

Like I said, you have your opinions and I have mine.
In many ways comparing me to TB is fine, in others it is not. Although I do not prefer Quattro I acknowledge it as good engineering and that it has its place. That being said it does cause significant weight and loss penalties.

As well, as I have stated over and over again, I believe the RS4 engine was much more revolutionary than the M3. It is a fine piece of kit inside and outside.

Furthermore, I do not use technical knowledge, ability nor facts to insult people. Am I agrumentative and opinionated, yes but that is a different ball of wax.

Lastly - best of luck finding anything like an R8 from Audi at a price anywhere close to the M3! Bang for the buck is not anywhere close to as good from Audi as BMW.

Cheers.
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      08-17-2008, 05:28 PM   #39
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In many ways comparing me to TB is fine, in others it is not. Although I do not prefer Quattro I acknowledge it as good engineering and that it has its place. That being said it does cause significant weight and loss penalties.

As well, as I have stated over and over again, I believe the RS4 engine was much more revolutionary than the M3. It is a fine piece of kit inside and outside.

Furthermore, I do not use technical knowledge, ability nor facts to insult people. Am I agrumentative and opinionated, yes but that is a different ball of wax.

Lastly - best of luck finding anything like an R8 from Audi at a price anywhere close to the M3! Bang for the buck is not anywhere close to as good from Audi as BMW.

Cheers.
Maybe I was a bit harsh saying you and TB were one in the same. Sorry about that.

I wouldn't go as far as to say the RS4 is technical better than the M3, it is as good in many ways but the M3 is a true master piece.

I think you will see Audi adapting the R8 principles in most of their hi-performance cars and by this I mean making them lighter than before, have better steering feel, better weight distribution and ultimately more enjoyable to driving.

Many people who have driven the new TT-S say they see Audi are make vast improvements and Drivers Republic compared the TT-S to the Cayman and it got pretty close to beating it which is truly amazing when you consider it's a fwd based awd chassis which only shift power when understeer is breached. The new S4 will be the first true quattro car to use these principles and it will show the way to how the RS5 and RS4 will be like.

I'm not saying that they will surpass BMW but I think they will offer an alternative which isn't a compromise in terms of enjoyment at the limit.

But enough of Audi, the discussion was about M3 vs C63 and like I said, with the performance package the C63 might/should offer M3's levels of interaction and balance on the track with a slight reduction in ride quality.
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      08-18-2008, 09:58 AM   #40
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Don't take it personally Footie. T_Bone is your text book BMW Fanboy.

He loves to argue how the M3 is better in every aspect and everytime something else comes close or beats the M he'll resort to the classic high school repponse " Lets see it in the twisties"

T-Bag......if you get a sec you should pick up an issue of R&T, Car&Driver, etc and see how close the C63 is in Handling, and braking! I believe that should cover OVERALL performance.......no?!?!
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      08-18-2008, 11:16 AM   #41
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Drive an M3, drive a C63, if you still want the C63 all you care about is straight line speed, period. The M3 is the superior all around package, always has been, always will be.
And anyway, the M3's aftermarket has a while before takeoff. I remember when I had the E46 M3 and people were complaining there was not enough power and the C32 was easier to mod. E46 M3's are putting out 700+ to the wheels now, C32's are nowhere. More power is always available, good luck getting a better chassis on the C63.
Excellent counter argument Nostradamus the 2nd. Just love how BMW aficionados resort to "who cares about straight line speed"; "can't hang in the twisties"; "superior all around package and build quality"; better balanced and superior chassis and and of course the infamous: "better back seats." These responses seem to occur at the highest frequency right after their rides get their gluteus maximus handed to them on a plate by a wannabe American or Japanese brand or a German competitor who's is straddled with a power sapping automatic equipped lugger or an overweight power draining all wheel drive or of course a car with no back seats or at least no real back seats. Puzzling to say the least. BMW continues to arrogantly state that Audi is not a competitor, that they make the finest sports sedans in the world and that the M3 has now reached 997 territory. If that be the case, enough with the excuses.

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      08-18-2008, 11:43 AM   #42
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...and of course the infamous: "better back seats."
Since you're mentioning the back seats. I do think that's a big factor, not over the C63, but over all the Caymans, Boxsters and even Carreras. IMO the 1 series convertible is really addicting for the very same reason. There aren't that many 'small' convertibles with an powerful engine that can seat 4 people. Though I guess that's completely OT.


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      08-18-2008, 11:54 AM   #43
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Since you're mentioning the back seats. I do think that's a big factor, not over the C63, but over all the Caymans, Boxsters and even Carreras. IMO the 1 series convertible is really addicting for the very same reason. There aren't that many 'small' convertibles with an powerful engine that can seat 4 people. Though I guess that's completely OT.


Best regards, south
Good point. However, as we both know, back seats come with a considerable weight penalty. Of course, it all goes back to what one's priority is. Every car is compromised in one form or another.
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      08-18-2008, 12:00 PM   #44
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EDIT and sorry



Best regards, south
South,

You are one of the people that really makes this forum such a success. I appreciate all your contributions. Disagreement is what gives any discussion the air it needs to sustain knowledge gathering.
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