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      08-06-2008, 09:28 PM   #67
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Quote:
Originally Posted by paulGT3 View Post
Art I cant take you seriously if you are going to quote car and driver really.

Car and Driver has NEVER executed a Valid test EVER! You are an engineer?
for who?

Everyone knows those guys are a bunch of hacks. Not only that I can attest
having track experience in all three designs for Porsche that the
PCCBs are much better than the iron brakes on a 997, I have driven both
iron brakes on my 993 Twin Turbo and the Gen I PCCBS on my 996 GT3 and the Gen II
PCCBs on my 997 GT3 I can tell you from experience the reduced unsprung weight helps in so many ways and then there is no fade which I was able to experience on my TT on track days in the 100 degree days of summer. I dont care what a bunch of hacks from some rag say. I know better. Period. And IF you are a real engineer as am I you should
know to use better sources for information. Really. Please dont go to the track and get in a conversation and start quoting Car and Driver or Road and Track. I dont want you to get laughed out off the grounds.
The very idea that you are saying M3 brakes are better than a 997 is getting rediculous
Nobody would seriously argue that
did you read the testing methods?
it was all instrumented, very detailed...
just becuase they do not reinforce your position does not invalidate the results...

I am the president of a 40 person consulting firm...I have 25+ years experience, my MS and am a registered PE in 3 disciplines in 5 states...

you are not an engineer...I can tell by your dismissal of the results without knowing anything about the methods...tell me what a REAL engineer is...lol

you sound about 11
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      08-06-2008, 09:30 PM   #68
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Quote:
Originally Posted by enigma View Post
+1

There are magazines that do real testing. Car and Driver and Motor Trend are not on that list.

As to those talking about "swept area", yes it helps, but its a long way from the most important factor.
why don't you share your deep technical insight
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      08-06-2008, 09:44 PM   #69
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997 rotor area, one front ~ 72 in^2
M3 ~ 108 in^2

that's a 50% difference

meaning:
more area to dissipate heat
less pressure/unit area (less heat per unit area)

do some research, see what the difference in pad area is...
many pad sites will give this info
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      08-06-2008, 09:46 PM   #70
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Art I am a flight test engineer for the Navy at China Lake with 21 years of experience
I have patents by the navy -I have designs flying in 3 aircraft programs and 2 weapons programs. But thats not important I have MANY track days in a 993 Twin Turbo a 996 GT3 a 997 GT3 and a couple in my Z4M. YOU are an idiot. I talk from my own experience NOT bench racing from reading car rags!!!!

I dismiss car and drivers tests because like in the Aug 08 issue when testing the GTR the GT2 the Viper and the Z06 they used categories like Driver comfort Rear seat space, Rebates! and GREAT scientific issues like GOTTA HAVE IT FACTOR and FUN TO DRIVE

Its on page 54 of the AUG issue OR can you read??!!

Now I realize to someone like you with an IQ smaller than your shoe size those SEEM scientific but NOT to me. THATS why I dismiss Car and Driver THERE IS NO SCIENTIFIC SUBSTANCE to ANY thing in that test PERIOD!
Can you even drive?

I read their testing methods and they are BULL$hit!!!
You are completely laughable by even using that crap in a forum
where users can actually READ!!!

You accuse ME of being 11 and yet you havent presented one IOTA of fact
since you got on your dads computer!
You have convinced me you arent even close to being
A: an engineer OR
B: A BMW owner. Non of my BMW buddies are that dumb.

I am done with this thread I was hoping to engage in adult conversation but
the comic book engineer brought that to a close. To those of you whom
actually KNOW what youre talking about I thank you.
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      08-06-2008, 09:54 PM   #71
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sure you are

did you read the article?
Futek sensor for pedal pressure
a string potentiometer for travel
RaceLogic VBOX GPS based measurement
so they rigged the data?

very simple methodology...
100-0, 20 sec, repeat until failure...

the only thing smaller than my IQ is your self esteem
personal attacks, panties in a bunch? grow a pair

as a jet test pilot, rocket scientist I'd think you'ld have a better understanding of test procedures...just goes to show how wrong you can be

I've raced competetively (dirt, snow, ice and even asphalt), and I can tell you have not, nor do you comprehend basic physics... Ke = 1/2 m V^2...in laymans terms, the braking work is proportional to mass for a given speed...put the M3 brakes on a 997 and it will brake better provided the control systems (abs, bias, etc.) are calibrated properly

Quote:
Originally Posted by paulGT3 View Post
Art I am a flight test engineer for the Navy at China Lake with 21 years of experience
I have patents by the navy -I have designs flying in 3 aircraft programs and 2 weapons programs. But thats not important I have MANY track days in a 993 Twin Turbo a 996 GT3 a 997 GT3 and a couple in my Z4M. YOU are an idiot. I talk from my own experience NOT bench racing from reading car rags!!!!

I dismiss car and drivers tests because like in the Aug 08 issue when testing the GTR the GT2 the Viper and the Z06 they used categories like Driver comfort Rear seat space, Rebates! and GREAT scientific issues like GOTTA HAVE IT FACTOR and FUN TO DRIVE

Its on page 54 of the AUG issue OR can you read??!!

Now I realize to someone like you with an IQ smaller than your shoe size those SEEM scientific but NOT to me. THATS why I dismiss Car and Driver THERE IS NO SCIENTIFIC SUBSTANCE to ANY thing in that test PERIOD!
Can you even drive?

I read their testing methods and they are BULL$hit!!!
You are completely laughable by even using that crap in a forum
where users can actually READ!!!

You accuse ME of being 11 and yet you havent presented one IOTA of fact
since you got on your dads computer!
You have convinced me you arent even close to being
A: an engineer OR
B: A BMW owner. Non of my BMW buddies are that dumb.

I am done with this thread I was hoping to engage in adult conversation but
the comic book engineer brought that to a close. To those of you whom
actually KNOW what youre talking about I thank you.
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      08-06-2008, 09:57 PM   #72
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Art READ the MAG! it starts on page 44 and the results of the heavily classified information is on page 54 of the Aug issue.
And by the way I was a GPS systems engineer for 14 years. I integrated the first GPS
reciever on the AV-8B harrier. So I know my TSPI data (Time Space Position information)

Hey Guys after reading Arts other posts he appears to be a proffesional flame war troll.
I apologize for even considering his dribble. He has just now achieved full ignore status.

Car and Driver as real test data HAHAHA LOL thats funny.

again thanks for those of you who gave me some real information and not some crap from car and driver like how important back seat space is, or more importantly REBATES! is to a test between four supercars.
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      08-06-2008, 10:01 PM   #73
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Quote:
Originally Posted by paulGT3 View Post
Hey Guys after reading Arts other posts he appears to be a proffesional flame war troll.
I apologize for even considering his dribble. He has just now achieved full ignore status.

Car and Driver as real test data HAHAHA LOL thats funny.

again thanks for those of you who gave me some real information and not some crap from car and driver like how important back seat space is, or more importantly REBATES! is to a test between four supercars.
wow, so mature...

I state facts...the M3's rotors have 50% more area than the 997's

the test results are valid...despite your opinion...

you seem to have an inferiority complex re: BMW's...what's up with that?

you slightly amuse me

btw dude, you are not a grown man, nobody writes like that > 11 HA HA HA
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      08-06-2008, 10:54 PM   #74
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Flight Engineer? GPS systems engineer? wow! You must be a car expert.

Go get yourself an M3 and then come back and bitch about the car.

I on the other hand, have owned and driven, and tracked a GT3 with iron brakes for over 2 years. And I have and own an M3. So I know from experience what I am talking about.

You sir - do not.
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      08-06-2008, 11:07 PM   #75
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enough personal insult people... let's stay on topic.

The problem with a discussion like this is that many people think that they are "car experts" and are making unsupported claims based on what they think is right...

Yes, single piston and floating calipers tell you somethings about the brakes, but the actual design of brakes is much more than just those two specs.

Let's make constructive comments based on actual facts and experiences -- instead of making ridiculous unsupported claims...

PLEASE... drive the damn car before you think it sucks
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      08-06-2008, 11:08 PM   #76
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      08-06-2008, 11:17 PM   #77
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ArtPE View Post
997 rotor area, one front ~ 72 in^2
M3 ~ 108 in^2

that's a 50% difference

meaning:
more area to dissipate heat
less pressure/unit area (less heat per unit area)

do some research, see what the difference in pad area is...
many pad sites will give this info
I didn't say its not important, just its below the list compared to proper airflow to the rotor.

My Elise has the same rotor on all four corners. Yet the rears which do only a fraction of the work the fronts do actually get hotter.
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      08-07-2008, 12:44 AM   #78
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Quote:
Originally Posted by paulGT3 View Post
Art I am a flight test engineer for the Navy at China Lake with 21 years of experience
I have patents by the navy -I have designs flying in 3 aircraft programs and 2 weapons programs. But thats not important I have MANY track days in a 993 Twin Turbo a 996 GT3 a 997 GT3 and a couple in my Z4M. YOU are an idiot. I talk from my own experience NOT bench racing from reading car rags!!!!

I dismiss car and drivers tests because like in the Aug 08 issue when testing the GTR the GT2 the Viper and the Z06 they used categories like Driver comfort Rear seat space, Rebates! and GREAT scientific issues like GOTTA HAVE IT FACTOR and FUN TO DRIVE

Its on page 54 of the AUG issue OR can you read??!!

Now I realize to someone like you with an IQ smaller than your shoe size those SEEM scientific but NOT to me. THATS why I dismiss Car and Driver THERE IS NO SCIENTIFIC SUBSTANCE to ANY thing in that test PERIOD!
Can you even drive?

I read their testing methods and they are BULL$hit!!!
You are completely laughable by even using that crap in a forum
where users can actually READ!!!

You accuse ME of being 11 and yet you havent presented one IOTA of fact
since you got on your dads computer!
You have convinced me you arent even close to being
A: an engineer OR
B: A BMW owner. Non of my BMW buddies are that dumb.

I am done with this thread I was hoping to engage in adult conversation but
the comic book engineer brought that to a close. To those of you whom
actually KNOW what youre talking about I thank you.
Im sorry but your data is basically your butt dyno.

No matter how many fighters or GPS systems you designed that doesnt make your butt a more accurate measuring device then the systems c&d used to collect their data.

the c&d results/testing seemed to be preformed pretty scientifically if you ask me.
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      08-07-2008, 01:26 AM   #79
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You boys been doin' a little bit of boozin' have ya? Throwin' back a little of grandpa's cough medicine?

This thread went from interesting to embarrassing in less than three hours. Well played.
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      08-07-2008, 01:30 AM   #80
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A few comments, yes from another engineer, scientist and former brake designer and engineer...

Art: To calculate swept area (and swept area per weight of vehicle) you need to consider the area swept by the pad. So rotor diameter is a decent approximation for swept area but not perfect.

I completely side with Art on the magazine testing here. From the test gear, Futek and Racelogic to the methodology, it is pretty solid. As well the conclusions are solid. The Nissan with the lowest end, total poser Bembo system simply sucks. The brakes on this car are about looks above all else and this clearly shows that piston count is very low on the list of things that matter. No surprise that the 335i performs better. As well no surprise that the Z06 and PCCB and non PCCB cars exhibit less fade than the 335i.

Generally I heavily question a source. So I am sensitive the the poor quality of testing and evaluation that some car rags produce. In this case you just can not throw out the baby with the bath water.

It is my understanding of the carbon ceramic material used in the PCCB rotors that the principal advantages of the material are longevity and weight, much more so than fade resistance or braking power. However that being said the rotors are very likely not contributors to any fade in the system. That is likely the pads, fluid and brake lines. This could be improved but again PCCB brakes or not the Porsches are street cars, not race cars.
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      08-07-2008, 03:13 AM   #81
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ArtPE View Post

I gurantee the 997 (non PCCB) would stop better with the m3 brakes...



obviously you are not an engineer, nor do you have any technical comprehension what so ever...pick up a book once and a while...
srsly.... i think you should put the books down and drive the 2 types of brakes.....


or maby instead of reading... do some writing... like. write Brembo and tell them to make a "brake upgrade" for 997s... tell them u want the rotor to be bigger and the caliper to be a single piston design... just like the ones found on M3s... honda civics... ford mustangs... and dodge minivans....



be sure to tell them your and engineer too!
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      08-07-2008, 03:15 AM   #82
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ace996 View Post
Or haven't seen the size of the pads.



BTW...what brakes are used here, sliders or multipiston?...


i bet they are multi piston design... and never fade....

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      08-07-2008, 03:17 AM   #83
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ArtPE View Post
did you read the testing methods?
it was all instrumented, very detailed...
just becuase they do not reinforce your position does not invalidate the results...

I am the president of a 40 person consulting firm...I have 25+ years experience, my MS and am a registered PE in 3 disciplines in 5 states...

you are not an engineer...I can tell by your dismissal of the results without knowing anything about the methods...tell me what a REAL engineer is...lol

you sound about 11

i can tell your a true engineer... because u lack common social skills...


no offense to any of u cool engineers!.. most of my friends are!
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      08-07-2008, 03:23 AM   #84
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Quote:
Originally Posted by M3Kevin View Post
Flight Engineer? GPS systems engineer? wow! You must be a car expert.

Go get yourself an M3 and then come back and bitch about the car.

I on the other hand, have owned and driven, and tracked a GT3 with iron brakes for over 2 years. And I have and own an M3. So I know from experience what I am talking about.

You sir - do not.


mash the pedal..... Harder....
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      08-07-2008, 08:15 AM   #85
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Another engineer here.

Paul, BMW came late to the "better brakes" game. They just opened a relationship with Brembo last year, and the 135i has been the only car benefited since that new agreement.

BMW knows they're not offering the best brakes in the business, as Audi & Mercedes (their main competitors) are doing. Hence their interest of having this agreement with Brembo.

Unfortunately, the E92 M3 came 1 year too early to get a Brembo setup. BMW is offering the 6-piston Brembo kit in ROW for all the 1/3 series through their performance accessories catalog.

The good news is that future performance BMW models will get standard or optional multi-piston brakes. Brembo supplies both metal and CCB rotors and monobloc calipers to Ferrari and Porsche among others.

I'm running a spreadsheet with weight saving items for the E92 M3, and switching to the Carbon Ceramic 6F/4R piston Stoptech brake system can save close to 60 lbs on unsprung weight.

While I'm on the market for a GT3 replacement, I was thinking on getting a less expensive track/auto-x car as to not put that many miles on the GT3 replacement car. Initially, I was thinking on a Cayman S, but this E92 M3 has so much potential, that for about the same price, I can have a car that will be lapping faster than the Coxster, and stock 996 GT3 with r-comp territory.

The M3 is a fun car to drive, I like it too much. It needs a 4 times stiffer suspension, 500 lbs weight reduction and better brakes for my track/auto-x needs, but everything else is phenomenal, including balance, predictability, the engine, DCT transmission and the available space (I can carry my tires and tools without a trailer).
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      08-07-2008, 08:33 AM   #86
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The one problem I saw with the C&D test was that in real life I don't see situations where I have to brake from 100 mph to a full stop consecutively, no on streets/autoX/track.

I would have preferred to see a test with multiple 150mph down to 80 or 60mph. Something that simulates a fast emprty canyon drive, or a racetrack condition.

The brake system cooling doesn't work too well at 0 mph. Some performance cars have cooling ducts, these ducts are effective at speed.
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      08-07-2008, 10:17 AM   #87
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Quote:
Originally Posted by paulGT3 View Post
I dismiss car and drivers tests because like in the Aug 08 issue when testing the GTR the GT2 the Viper and the Z06 they used categories like Driver comfort Rear seat space, Rebates! and GREAT scientific issues like GOTTA HAVE IT FACTOR and FUN TO DRIVE

Its on page 54 of the AUG issue OR can you read??!!
Quote:
Originally Posted by ArtPE View Post

did you read the article?
Futek sensor for pedal pressure
a string potentiometer for travel
RaceLogic VBOX GPS based measurement
so they rigged the data?

very simple methodology...
100-0, 20 sec, repeat until failure...
Paul you are not looking at the correct test. It is true that C&D uses subjective factors in its usual car comparos. But the brake test was not part of a car comparo. It was an instrumented test of brakes and only brakes of various types of cars, all performed at the same venue on the same day. One might argue that a different test methodology would yield more meanignful results, but there was nothing subjective about the brake testing itself.
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      08-07-2008, 10:48 AM   #88
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I don't want to join this flame war, but I have some personal experiences/knowledge to add.

After reading through this thread, it is plain to see that there are some widely differing opinions. I have seen the M3 brakes compared to 996 GT3's, 997 and 997S. Being as I owned a 996 GT3 with iron brakes, I can comment on those. I own a '08 M3, but have not tracked it yet, so I cannot comment on the track worthiness of those, yet.

In the GT3, at the track in 100+ weather, you can drive the car hard in all sessions without a HINT of fade. Mind you, I was runnig Pagid RS19 pads which are a racing endurance pad. These are the pads the GT3 won Le Mans with in 2004. They are fricken boat anchors and incredible pads. They inspire so much confidence that you just KNOW they will be there, and be damn good, when you need them. Even though the pads were not stock (although the stock compound is supposedly damn near the level of an RS19), the entire braking system was incredible.

I saw that one poster from Ireland noted that he had about 20 track days or so and that in higher heats, around laps 4 or 5, he would get a hint of fade. On the stock pads, I do not doubt it. With aftermarket pads, who knows? A fluid upgrade would help for sure. With cross drilled rotors on the M, I do NOT think off gasing was the cause of the fade...rather, I bet the fluid was starting to boil a bit. With a fluid upgrade, I bet the difference would be marked. I guess I will have to wait a bit longer and just do this myself and see what difference it makes.

With all the talk of rotor size, etc., I was thinking about something else...weight! Not rotor/caliper weight, but car weight.

The stock 996 GT3 front rotor is 350mm = 13.77". Although the M's are 14.2", the M is about 700 pounds heavier than the 6 GT3! Will 0.5" larger rotors compensate for 700 more pounds? I don't know, but I would think not.

Basically, in a nutshell, I would say this..... The M3 brakes are good, but IMHO, an outdated design. I bet that when I start to really push them, I will find them to be nowhere near the capability of the 6 GT3 brakes. The way I see it, (and as somebody else noted), the M3's brakes were designed for a street car. I agree. The GT3's brakes were designed for a track car, I agree. The GT3 vs. M3 brake issue is really an apples to oranges argument. They are designed for different purposes.....but I would take my GT3 "track" brakes anyday on the street over the M's.
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