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      08-06-2008, 02:21 PM   #67
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Originally Posted by lyndon_h View Post
On a slightly different note, I find it curious how some of you think that race actually helps Obama. Obama's historic campaign is nice for headlines, but the subject of race alienates more people than it energizes. If Obama were white, he would be destroying McCain in the poles. McCain is really a poor candidate. He was much more impressive in 2000. Its really ashame how fall he's fallen. I really used to like and respect the guy.

sorry for the rambling... I'm at work and i'm trying not to get too distracted
If Obama were white, he would not even be in the race. He completely lacks any of the experience that would normally qualifies a candidate for the presidency. By this point, a young white guy with the same amount of experience and who has made the number and type of verbal gaffes as Obama has would have been laughed off the national scene.

Obama's campaign has almost exclusively about his being "different" and his color is a big, if not the biggest, component of that. Strip away his color and he is just a very liberal, inexperienced freshman senator who misspeaks a lot.
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      08-06-2008, 02:44 PM   #68
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If this election came down to a matter of race or ethnicity, then it is sad. And that goes for whether it were to help or it were to hinder the mixed race candidate.

Matters that do belong in the election are matters related to Black Liberation Theology, how it applies to the candidate, and what it might mean for American society if implemented. If it were Father Pfleger running for president, then Black Liberation Theology would be just as important an issue though his skin is lilly white.
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      08-06-2008, 08:27 PM   #69
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no offence to any one here but I believe him to be muslim also and that is the biggest reason among many I will not vote for him I just dont feel at ease with some one of that decent running my country! I could honestly careless about skin color
No offense, but if you STILL believe him to be a Muslim, you're probably very, very stupid.

Also, if you would outright disqualify a canidate personally based on their religious background, then I have no interest in speaking to you further. Welcome to my ignore list!
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      08-06-2008, 08:34 PM   #70
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Originally Posted by ganeil View Post
If Obama were white, he would not even be in the race. He completely lacks any of the experience that would normally qualifies a candidate for the presidency. By this point, a young white guy with the same amount of experience and who has made the number and type of verbal gaffes as Obama has would have been laughed off the national scene.

Obama's campaign has almost exclusively about his being "different" and his color is a big, if not the biggest, component of that. Strip away his color and he is just a very liberal, inexperienced freshman senator who misspeaks a lot.
I'm inclined to believe that is not entirely true. I think that a much bigger part of his success is the "change" concept. Most Americans are dissatisfied with our political system, not to mention our current president, and appearing to offer something different is a STRONG drawing factor. While his skin color might have gotten him more noticed initially, I'm of the opinion that what won it for him is the fact that he was identical for Hillary on the issues, but a much more agreeable and personable individual.

I think the experience thing could go either way. Honestly, unless you're a governor, or the mayor of a big city, there isn't much 'experience' that could really prepare you for the role of POTUS. I also don't think he misspeaks that much, or that badly. Dubya was the king of that, and McCain is pretty bad too. To be perfectly honest, I don't think I could keep my head as straight as either canidate with everything they have to do.

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If this election came down to a matter of race or ethnicity, then it is sad. And that goes for whether it were to help or it were to hinder the mixed race candidate.

Matters that do belong in the election are matters related to Black Liberation Theology, how it applies to the candidate, and what it might mean for American society if implemented. If it were Father Pfleger running for president, then Black Liberation Theology would be just as important an issue though his skin is lilly white.
I agree 100%.
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      08-06-2008, 09:09 PM   #71
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Originally Posted by ganeil View Post
If Obama were white, he would not even be in the race. He completely lacks any of the experience that would normally qualifies a candidate for the presidency. By this point, a young white guy with the same amount of experience and who has made the number and type of verbal gaffes as Obama has would have been laughed off the national scene.

Obama's campaign has almost exclusively about his being "different" and his color is a big, if not the biggest, component of that. Strip away his color and he is just a very liberal, inexperienced freshman senator who misspeaks a lot.
The statements above reveal your own unfortunate perspective and opinions. Thankfully they don't represent the perspective of the majority of Americans. I've seen in other posts where you have accused Obama of complaining that he is treated unfairly because of race. Here we see the real truth is that it's you who is focused on race, unable to give an accomplished Havard law graduate his due respect.

Please show us the official presidential job application where it lists the qualificaitons and accomplishments required to be president of the United States and which ones Barack Obama doesn't meet. And PLEASE show me any one single person more gaffe prone than John McCain, who, I'm sure you've noticed, happens to be white. The man is a walking gaffe a minute.

Obama's campaign theme is not just about being "different". It's about being different than what we've had for the last 4 years. In case you hadn't noticed the American people are ready for a CHANGE.

Don't be so arrogant to think you know better than the current majority of American people who believe Barack Obama is well qualified to be president on his own merrits.
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      08-06-2008, 09:58 PM   #72
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The statements above reveal your own unfortunate perspective and opinions. Thankfully they don't represent the perspective of the majority of Americans. I've seen in other posts where you have accused Obama of complaining that he is treated unfairly because of race. Here we see the real truth is that it's you who is focused on race, unable to give an accomplished Havard law graduate his due respect.

Please show us the official presidential job application where it lists the qualificaitons and accomplishments required to be president of the United States and which ones Barack Obama doesn't meet. And PLEASE show me any one single person more gaffe prone than John McCain, who, I'm sure you've noticed, happens to be white. The man is a walking gaffe a minute.

Obama's campaign theme is not just about being "different". It's about being different than what we've had for the last 4 years. In case you hadn't noticed the American people are ready for a CHANGE.

Don't be so arrogant to think you know better than the current majority of American people who believe Barack Obama is well qualified to be president on his own merrits.
Let me start at the top. Back when Dan Quayle was the vice-presidential candidate, people were complaining he lacked experience. Quayle spent twice as long in the Senate and thrice more time overall in Congress than Obama has now running for President. The man is utterly unqualified. Even if he were a Republican I'd be very hesitant to cast my vote for him. McCain has spent over 5 times as long in the Senate as Barack. To put things in perspective, McCain has continually served in the Senate since 3 years after Obama graduated college. You can't say with any degree of honesty or realism that Obama would be a candidate if he were not incredibly "different". This includes his "most liberal" voting record as well as his race. It also includes the fact that nobody actually knows anything about him or his beliefs over a long period of time because of that inexperience.

Obama absolutely is treated and acts differently because of his race. He whines whenever somebody says anything negative about him as being either a personal attack or racially motivated. He's playing the "don't attack me or my positions or else your racist" card for all it's worth.

As to your last paragraph, you do realize if it weren't for people's great dislike of the current administration, Obama wouldn't have a snowball's chance in hell, right?
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shit, if i had that kind of money id buy a gtstreet for monday, an ascari a10 for tuesday, a DBS for wednesday and id just ride jessica alba the rest of the week.
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      08-06-2008, 10:01 PM   #73
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Originally Posted by BKsBimmer View Post
The statements above reveal your own unfortunate perspective and opinions. Thankfully they don't represent the perspective of the majority of Americans. I've seen in other posts where you have accused Obama of complaining that he is treated unfairly because of race. Here we see the real truth is that it's you who is focused on race, unable to give an accomplished Havard law graduate his due respect.
Obama has played the race card in this campaign and in the primaries. He has made a habit of turning any criticism of him into a race issue. He continuously conflates legitimate questions about his judgement or experience with questions no one is actually raising like his name or that he doesn't look like other candidates. Other than graduating from Harvard Law, what has he accomplished? He was most noted in the Illinois State Senate for voting "Present" and won his US Senate race in large part because the original Republican candidate imploded.

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Please show us the official presidential job application where it lists the qualificaitons and accomplishments required to be president of the United States and which ones Barack Obama doesn't meet. And PLEASE show me any one single person more gaffe prone than John McCain, who, I'm sure you've noticed, happens to be white. The man is a walking gaffe a minute.
The only official qualifications are those listed in the Constitution but those are just the minimum qualifications. I am referring to the experiences voters have normally looked for in a presidential candidate. Executive leadership at the state level (Reagan, Clinton), a long and distinguished legislative career or service as VP (LBJ, Bush, Truman) , military leadership (Washington, Eisenhower). Obama has none of these. He has no significant legislative accomplishment and has spent most of the past 10 years running for higher office instead of doing the jobs he was elected to do.

McCain has made no gaffes that compare to "58 states," seeing dead people, or not knowing he can't be president for 10 years. Dan Quayle, who was much more qualified than Obama, was mercilessly laughed at for much, much less.

Quote:
Obama's campaign theme is not just about being "different". It's about being different than what we've had for the last 4 years. In case you hadn't noticed the American people are ready for a CHANGE.

Don't be so arrogant to think you know better than the current majority of American people who believe Barack Obama is well qualified to be president on his own merrits.
Every democrat in the race ran against the last 4 years. Obama was no different than those much more qualified individuals in that regard.

I would like you to show me a poll that reflects your belief that a majority of the American people believe Obama is qualified to be President because that belief is not reflected in the tracking polls where he does not crack 50%.
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      08-06-2008, 10:46 PM   #74
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Let me start at the top. Back when Dan Quayle was the vice-presidential candidate, people were complaining he lacked experience. Quayle spent twice as long in the Senate and thrice more time overall in Congress than Obama has now running for President. The man is utterly unqualified. Even if he were a Republican I'd be very hesitant to cast my vote for him. McCain has spent over 5 times as long in the Senate as Barack. To put things in perspective, McCain has continually served in the Senate since 3 years after Obama graduated college. You can't say with any degree of honesty or realism that Obama would be a candidate if he were not incredibly "different". This includes his "most liberal" voting record as well as his race. It also includes the fact that nobody actually knows anything about him or his beliefs over a long period of time because of that inexperience.

Obama absolutely is treated and acts differently because of his race. He whines whenever somebody says anything negative about him as being either a personal attack or racially motivated. He's playing the "don't attack me or my positions or else your racist" card for all it's worth.

As to your last paragraph, you do realize if it weren't for people's great dislike of the current administration, Obama wouldn't have a snowball's chance in hell, right?
So, what...
It is more and more obvious that your age and real life inexperience plays role here...
Bush had more experience than many before him, but all that was useless as shown in the last 8 years...
I have known many experienced managers that failed miserably and quite a few new, bright, supported by majority that did outstanding job...

People are always going to try to find wrong sides with both candidates -- age, race, experience on paper, military background...

In the end, both candidates tell us mainly what we want to hear, one of them has the foreign support, has optimism and energy coming out... The other one is ready to...retire...

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      08-07-2008, 12:59 AM   #75
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      08-07-2008, 02:40 AM   #76
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So, what...
It is more and more obvious that your age and real life inexperience plays role here...
Bush had more experience than many before him, but all that was useless as shown in the last 8 years...
I have know many experienced managers that failed miserably and quite a few new, bright, supported by majority that did outstanding job...

People are always going to try to find wrong sides with both candidates -- age, race, experience on paper, military background...

In the end, both candidates tell us mainly what we want to hear, one of them has the foreign support, has optimism and energy coming out... The other one is ready to...retire...
I like how you say I'm an idiot because I'm young at the start of your post and say Obama is the perfect candidate because he's young at the end.
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shit, if i had that kind of money id buy a gtstreet for monday, an ascari a10 for tuesday, a DBS for wednesday and id just ride jessica alba the rest of the week.
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      08-07-2008, 07:14 AM   #77
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I like how you say I'm an idiot because I'm young at the start of your post and say Obama is the perfect candidate because he's young at the end.
I didn't say you were an idiot, and I do not think you are one. I actually do believe some of your points are valid, and very good. However, to claim something with no basis, to claim that someone's experience will prevent him from doing a good job while we're recovering from the "experienced" 8 years...and when we all know that others are running the show behind the figure called "the President" is ridiculous.

I did, however, say you were young and your opinion above reflects it.

Finally, your line "Even if he were a Republican I'd be very hesitant to cast my vote for him" proves it all...
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      08-07-2008, 07:27 AM   #78
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What kind of ? is this, yes race matter otherwise people would not race to see who has a faster car.








Wait just a second, I think OP is talking about the other meaning of race, oops. Sorry for

Continue on pls...
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      08-07-2008, 11:31 AM   #79
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Originally Posted by ganeil View Post
If Obama were white, he would not even be in the race. He completely lacks any of the experience that would normally qualifies a candidate for the presidency. By this point, a young white guy with the same amount of experience and who has made the number and type of verbal gaffes as Obama has would have been laughed off the national scene.

Obama's campaign has almost exclusively about his being "different" and his color is a big, if not the biggest, component of that. Strip away his color and he is just a very liberal, inexperienced freshman senator who misspeaks a lot.
I totally disagree. Sure, Obama has had some advantages for being the first viable black candidate, but he has much more disadvantages. The whole Jeremiah Wright thing was blown way out of proportion because of white fear or a lack of understanding of the viewpoints of many black churches. There was nothing to be afraid of. There is nothing to be afraid of. Yet the whole controversy received 20 times more coverage than the fact that McCain sought the endorsement of Pastor Hagee who has said much more controversial things than American will be damned if we dont change our ways.

The presidential campaign is enough to weed out the pretenders. Those without the experience to navigate the craziness of the campaign would be washed away. Obama has been a state senator for many years and has proved his ability to a very effective legistor. He is simply much sharper than McCain, and i'm not just talking about intelligence. Its really not even close. If you separate yourself from your feelings about the candidates and their positions and look at the people running for the office, I think its almost impossible to deny that there is a huge difference in the abilities of the two candidates. Experience rarely trumps great talent.

And do you really want to talk about GAFFES. Really! McCain can't get anything straight. And trust me there is a difference between Obama saying 57 once, and McCain confusing Sunnis and Shiites 4 times in a week. We've all said something when we were thinking something else (especially when your'e on camera all the time), but do it 4 times about something as critical as to confuse the very different fighting factions in Iraq is inexcusable, especially when you claim to have a better understanding of the war. I'm not sure what Obama meant by 57 states, i think he meant 50 states, DC and the US territories of Guam, Virgin islands, Somoa, Puerto Rico,Northern Mariana Islands, and the Minor Outlying Islands; but who knows for sure.

The Obamas campaign has not just been about being different. It really has been about being better. And I'm not basing this opinion on the nominee's platforms. I'm basing this on how their campaigns are run. Obama's beat Clinton because his campaign was run better. The campaign had a strong morale and message that started from the top down. To his credit, Obama picked very strong people to run this campaign (this is one of the most important duties of a president). McCain seems to be having the same problems that Clinton was having and as a result, McCain's campaign manager was recently replaced (or he "resigned"). Its no secret that many Republicans have been upset with many of the blocking and tackling decisions of the McCain campaign. And let's not even get started with the fact that McCain and his campaign have said different things about taxes and social security (the whole McCain doesn't necessarily speak for the McCain campaign bit). Its like one hand isn't talking to another.

Anyway, you guys are bad for the economy. My productivity tanks when i get in this forum.
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      08-07-2008, 12:09 PM   #80
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I totally disagree. Sure, Obama has had some advantages for being the first viable black candidate, but he has much more disadvantages. The whole Jeremiah Wright thing was blown way out of proportion because of white fear or a lack of understanding of the viewpoints of many black churches. There was nothing to be afraid of. There is nothing to be afraid of. Yet the whole controversy received 20 times more coverage than the fact that McCain sought the endorsement of Pastor Hagee who has said much more controversial things than American will be damned if we dont change our ways.
We will just have to disagree. The Rev. Wright episode was certainly NOT blown out of proportion. If anything it has been underplayed. If a white candidate were a member of a church whose pastor routinely disparaged the country, blamed the US for 9/11, and lent its newsletter to terrorists, he would have been out of the race the next day. What we got was, "its a black thing you don't understand." Instead the pliable press first bought into Obama's, "I could no more disown Rev. Wright" speech and hailed it as the second Gettysburg Address and then stood by silently as he threw him under the bus weeks later. The relationship between Obama and Wright was a close, 20+ year, personal relationship that is in no way comparable to the Hagee endorsement of McCain

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The presidential campaign is enough to weed out the pretenders. Those without the experience to navigate the craziness of the campaign would be washed away. Obama has been a state senator for many years and has proved his ability to a very effective legistor. He is simply much sharper than McCain, and i'm not just talking about intelligence. Its really not even close. If you separate yourself from your feelings about the candidates and their positions and look at the people running for the office, I think its almost impossible to deny that there is a huge difference in the abilities of the two candidates. Experience rarely trumps great talent.
Great talent is evident by great accomplishment. Obama has no great accomplishments to reflect the talent you believe he possesses. He was not an effective legislator, he was a seat warmer for the Chicago machine who did what he was told and took credit for work that was not his own. He has done the same in the US Senate.

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And do you really want to talk about GAFFES. Really! McCain can't get anything straight. And trust me there is a difference between Obama saying 57 once, and McCain confusing Sunnis and Shiites 4 times in a week. We've all said something when we were thinking something else (especially when your'e on camera all the time), but do it 4 times about something as critical as to confuse the very different fighting factions in Iraq is inexcusable, especially when you claim to have a better understanding of the war. I'm not sure what Obama meant by 57 states, i think he meant 50 states, DC and the US territories of Guam, Virgin islands, Somoa, Puerto Rico,Northern Mariana Islands, and the Minor Outlying Islands; but who knows for sure.
The ironic thing about the alleged McCain Sunni/Shia/Iran gaffe is that what he said was true. There is plenty of evidence that Iran has supported al Qaeda both in Iraq and elsewhere. The problem there was McCain knew more than the surface knowledge the media possesses. Obama has been a gaffe machine. Every time he steps away from the teleprompter he inserts his foot in his mouth.

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The Obamas campaign has not just been about being different. It really has been about being better. And I'm not basing this opinion on the nominee's platforms. I'm basing this on how their campaigns are run. Obama's beat Clinton because his campaign was run better. The campaign had a strong morale and message that started from the top down. To his credit, Obama picked very strong people to run this campaign (this is one of the most important duties of a president). McCain seems to be having the same problems that Clinton was having and as a result, McCain's campaign manager was recently replaced (or he "resigned"). Its no secret that many Republicans have been upset with many of the blocking and tackling decisions of the McCain campaign. And let's not even get started with the fact that McCain and his campaign have said different things about taxes and social security (the whole McCain doesn't necessarily speak for the McCain campaign bit). Its like one hand isn't talking to another.

Anyway, you guys are bad for the economy. My productivity tanks when i get in this forum.
Obama won because the Democrats have a bizarre delegate awarding process and he gamed it. His policy prescriptions are no different than those of Clinton, Biden, Edwards, et al but his message was "Change" and "Hope."

Given the state of the latest polls, Obama better hope McCain's campaign stays as disfunctional as you believe it is.
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      08-07-2008, 05:17 PM   #81
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Every time he steps away from the teleprompter he inserts his foot in his mouth.
Like this?
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Originally Posted by Obama
we could save all the oil they're talking about getting off drilling, if everybody was just inflating their tires, and getting regular tune-ups. You could actually save just as much.

That's not really a gaffe though, that's just him having realized his position is entirely untenable and rejected by 70% of the American people and trying to make stuff up to cover his ass.
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shit, if i had that kind of money id buy a gtstreet for monday, an ascari a10 for tuesday, a DBS for wednesday and id just ride jessica alba the rest of the week.
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      08-07-2008, 06:16 PM   #82
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Obama has played the race card in this campaign and in the primaries. He has made a habit of turning any criticism of him into a race issue. He continuously conflates legitimate questions about his judgement or experience with questions no one is actually raising like his name or that he doesn't look like other candidates.
Your argument is laughable if you consider it in realistic terms. First of all, can you imagine anyone attempting to become president of this great country by claming to be a victim or by being agreived in some way? No one get's elected president my making people feel sorry for them. Realistically if Obama plays the race card he loses, period. It's suicide for him to do that. On the other hand it's to the advantage of McCain to try to bring up race whenever possible, so of course, he does! McCain's (latest) new handlers, courtesy of Karl Rove are masters at devisive slash and burn politics and they'll do it every chance they get.


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Other than graduating from Harvard Law, what has he accomplished? He was most noted in the Illinois State Senate for voting "Present" and won his US Senate race in large part because the original Republican candidate imploded.
Here are a few of Senator Obama's accomplishments since he began his political career over ten years ago:

In 1996 after being elected to the Illinois State Senate Obama gained bipartisan support for legislation reforming ethics and health care laws. He sponsored a law increasing tax credits for low-income workers, negotiated welfare reform, and promoted increased subsidies for childcare.

In 2001, as co-chairman of the bipartisan Joint Committee on Administrative Rules, Obama supported Republican Governor Ryan's payday loan regulations and predatory mortgage lending regulations aimed at averting home foreclosures.

In 2003, Obama sponsored and led unanimous, bipartisan passage of legislation to monitor racial profiling by requiring police to record the race of drivers they detained and legislation making Illinois the first state to mandate videotaping of homicide interrogations.

In 2003, Obama became chairman of the Illinois Senate's Health and Human Services Committee when Democrats, after a decade in the minority, regained a majority.

During his 2004 general election campaign for U.S. Senate, police representatives credited Obama for his active engagement with police organizations in enacting death penalty reforms.

Obama was sworn in as a US senator on January 4 2005.

In 2005 Obama voted in favor of the Energy Policy Act of 2005. Obama took an active role in the Senate's drive for improved border security and immigration reform. He also cosponsored the "Secure America and Orderly Immigration Act" introduced by Republican John McCain. He later added three amendments to the "Comprehensive Immigration Reform Act", which passed the Senate in May 2006, but failed to gain majority support in the House of Representatives.

In September 2006, Obama supported a related bill, the Secure Fence Act, authorizing construction of fencing and other security improvements along the United States–Mexico border. President Bush signed the Secure Fence Act into law in October 2006, calling it "an important step toward immigration reform."

In 2006 Obama partnered with Republican Senators Richard Lugar of Indiana and Tom Coburn of Oklahoma to successfully introduce two initiatives bearing his name. "Lugar–Obama" expanded the Nunn–Lugar cooperative threat reduction concept to conventional weapons, including shoulder-fired missiles and anti-personnel mines. The "Coburn–Obama Transparency Act" authorized the establishment of www.USAspending.gov, a web search engine launched in December 2007 and run by the Office of Management and Budget.

In December 2006, President Bush signed into law the "Democratic Republic of the Congo Relief, Security, and Democracy Promotion Act," marking the first federal legislation to be enacted with Obama as its primary sponsor.

In January 2007, Obama worked with Democrat Russ Feingold of Wisconsin to eliminate gifts of travel on corporate jets by lobbyists to members of Congress and require disclosure of bundled campaign contributions under the "Honest Leadership and Open Government Act," which was signed into law in September 2007.

He introduced S. 453, a bill to criminalize deceptive practices in federal elections, including fraudulent flyers and automated phone calls, as witnessed in the 2006 midterm elections.

Obama's energy initiatives scored pluses and minuses with environmentalists, who welcomed his sponsorship with McCain of a climate change bill to reduce greenhouse gas emissions by two-thirds by 2050, but were skeptical of his support for a bill promoting liquefied coal production.

Obama also introduced the "Iraq War De-Escalation Act of 2007," a bill to cap troop levels in Iraq, begin phased redeployment, and remove all combat brigades from Iraq before April 2008.

Later in 2007, Obama sponsored an amendment to the Defense Authorization Act adding safeguards for personality disorder military discharges, and calling for an official review following reports that the procedure had been used inappropriately to reduce government costs.

He sponsored the "Iran Sanctions Enabling Act" supporting divestment of state pension funds from Iran's oil and gas industry, and joined Republican Chuck Hagel of Nebraska in introducing legislation to reduce risks of nuclear terrorism. A provision from the Obama–Hagel bill was passed by Congress in December 2007 as an amendment to the State-Foreign Operations appropriations bill.

Obama also sponsored a Senate amendment to the State Children's Health Insurance Program providing one year of job protection for family members caring for soldiers with combat-related injuries.


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The only official qualifications are those listed in the Constitution but those are just the minimum qualifications. I am referring to the experiences voters have normally looked for in a presidential candidate. Executive leadership at the state level (Reagan, Clinton), a long and distinguished legislative career or service as VP (LBJ, Bush, Truman) , military leadership (Washington, Eisenhower). Obama has none of these. He has no significant legislative accomplishment and has spent most of the past 10 years running for higher office instead of doing the jobs he was elected to do.
I believe you answered your own question. The Constitution sets the qualifications for POTUS and the American people decide who they want for the job. What voters have looked for in past presidents is always subject to change. So far in this presidential election voters appear to be open to considering non traditional experiences for their next president.

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McCain has made no gaffes that compare to "58 states," seeing dead people, or not knowing he can't be president for 10 years. Dan Quayle, who was much more qualified than Obama, was mercilessly laughed at for much, much less.
Let's face it every presidential candidate is prone to make a gaffe here and there. You believe Obama makes more serious gaffes and I believe McCain makes more serious gaffes. That's a useless argument that is purely a matter of opinion so there is no point in carrying it further.

Let's just agree they have both had their gaffes.

What is indisputable is that some people can say the same thing and have it received differently. This has more to do with one's personality and charisma than the words that are said. I believe personality and charisma are important leadership qualities. If you have someting important to say but can't get anyone to listen, pay attention or follow, then you can't lead.

Obama has an appealing personality and charisma. McCain is lacking in that department.


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Every democrat in the race ran against the last 4 years. Obama was no different than those much more qualified individuals in that regard.
Much more qualified according to your personal opinion. Obviously the people who mattered didn't agree.


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I would like you to show me a poll that reflects your belief that a majority of the American people believe Obama is qualified to be President because that belief is not reflected in the tracking polls where he does not crack 50%.
You and I both know there are many different polls out there polling a lot of different specifics. Every general election poll I've seen consistently has Obama running ahead of McCain.

Obama doesn't have to crack 50% to win the election. That said it's still relatively early in the election season. There is still time for either candidate to break out. Guess we'll have to see what happens in the fall.
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      08-08-2008, 07:22 AM   #83
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We will just have to disagree. The Rev. Wright episode was certainly NOT blown out of proportion. If anything it has been underplayed. If a white candidate were a member of a church whose pastor routinely disparaged the country, blamed the US for 9/11, and lent its newsletter to terrorists, he would have been out of the race the next day. What we got was, "its a black thing you don't understand." Instead the pliable press first bought into Obama's, "I could no more disown Rev. Wright" speech and hailed it as the second Gettysburg Address and then stood by silently as he threw him under the bus weeks later. The relationship between Obama and Wright was a close, 20+ year, personal relationship that is in no way comparable to the Hagee endorsement of McCain



Great talent is evident by great accomplishment. Obama has no great accomplishments to reflect the talent you believe he possesses. He was not an effective legislator, he was a seat warmer for the Chicago machine who did what he was told and took credit for work that was not his own. He has done the same in the US Senate.



The ironic thing about the alleged McCain Sunni/Shia/Iran gaffe is that what he said was true. There is plenty of evidence that Iran has supported al Qaeda both in Iraq and elsewhere. The problem there was McCain knew more than the surface knowledge the media possesses. Obama has been a gaffe machine. Every time he steps away from the teleprompter he inserts his foot in his mouth.



Obama won because the Democrats have a bizarre delegate awarding process and he gamed it. His policy prescriptions are no different than those of Clinton, Biden, Edwards, et al but his message was "Change" and "Hope."

Given the state of the latest polls, Obama better hope McCain's campaign stays as disfunctional as you believe it is.

You are correct. We will just have to disagree.
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      08-08-2008, 01:36 PM   #84
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Your argument is laughable if you consider it in realistic terms. First of all, can you imagine anyone attempting to become president of this great country by claming to be a victim or by being agreived in some way? No one get's elected president my making people feel sorry for them. Realistically if Obama plays the race card he loses, period. It's suicide for him to do that. On the other hand it's to the advantage of McCain to try to bring up race whenever possible, so of course, he does! McCain's (latest) new handlers, courtesy of Karl Rove are masters at devisive slash and burn politics and they'll do it every chance they get.
I think you underestimate the amount of white guilt that exists in America. Obama is attempting to have it both ways with the issue of race. He makes a point of telling the people of Berlin that he doesn't look like others who have come to their city before him (ignoring the fact that our senior diplomats for the past 8 years have each been black) and then claims that the Republicans are going to try to scare people by saying exactly what [b]HE[b] just said.


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Here are a few of Senator Obama's accomplishments since he began his political career over ten years ago:
Did you actually read what you just posted or was it simply a matter of cutting and pasting? He gained support for, supported, became chairman, was sworn in, voted for, supported, those are not phrases associated with accomplishments. He tagged along for the ride and when he actually did sponsor legislation it was to lose a war in a region of great national interest and send foreign aid to a country where we have no interests.


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Let's face it every presidential candidate is prone to make a gaffe here and there. You believe Obama makes more serious gaffes and I believe McCain makes more serious gaffes. That's a useless argument that is purely a matter of opinion so there is no point in carrying it further.

Let's just agree they have both had their gaffes.
Obama's gaffes have been an endless stream whenever he steps away from a teleprompter. I am curious as to which McCain gaffes you believe are in any way serious.

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What is indisputable is that some people can say the same thing and have it received differently. This has more to do with one's personality and charisma than the words that are said. I believe personality and charisma are important leadership qualities. If you have someting important to say but can't get anyone to listen, pay attention or follow, then you can't lead.

Obama has an appealing personality and charisma. McCain is lacking in that department.
Do you honestly believe foreign adversaries give a damn about personality and charisma? President of the United States is not a job that you can accomplish with a smile and empty rhetoric. That is all Obama is.

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Much more qualified according to your personal opinion. Obviously the people who mattered didn't agree.
Qualifications are not subjective. The other candidates were objectively more qualified than Obama.
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      08-08-2008, 06:56 PM   #85
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I think you underestimate the amount of white guilt that exists in America. Obama is attempting to have it both ways with the issue of race. He makes a point of telling the people of Berlin that he doesn't look like others who have come to their city before him (ignoring the fact that our senior diplomats for the past 8 years have each been black) and then claims that the Republicans are going to try to scare people by saying exactly what [b]HE[b] just said.

I believe it's you who consistently underestimates the intelligence and wisdom of the American people. Thankfully your cynicism about white America is not shared by everyone. White guilt or any other kind of guilt is not the basis for Obama's success as a presidential candidate and the current front runner in the general eleciton. In fact, quite the opposite.


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Did you actually read what you just posted or was it simply a matter of cutting and pasting? He gained support for, supported, became chairman, was sworn in, voted for, supported, those are not phrases associated with accomplishments. He tagged along for the ride and when he actually did sponsor legislation it was to lose a war in a region of great national interest and send foreign aid to a country where we have no interests.
Did YOU actually read what I posted or are you just too blinded by your personal and political biases and prejudices to acknowledge Senator Obama's accomplishments. You selectively omitted the phrases "sponsored", "led unanimous, bipartisan passage of", "took an active role in", "co-sponsored", "successfully introduced a bill", etc.

Accomplishments are accomplishments whether they are acheived collaboratively or individually. Senator Obama has a good mix of both. You can't just pick and chose which ones you will recognize to suit your own purproses or for the sake of advancing your argument.

It's unfortunate that you are unable to allow yourself to acknowledge the credibility, accomplishments and appeal of a man who you may not agree with politically.


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Obama's gaffes have been an endless stream whenever he steps away from a teleprompter. I am curious as to which McCain gaffes you believe are in any way serious.
I said before I won't engage in to a tit for tat gaffe comparison. It's clear to me your biases will not allow you to evaluate anything concerning Obama objectively, so there's just no point. Both men have made their gaffes and will probably make more before November. Let's just leave it at that.


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Do you honestly believe foreign adversaries give a damn about personality and charisma? President of the United States is not a job that you can accomplish with a smile and empty rhetoric. That is all Obama is.
I believe the right personality and temperment are extremely important traits for a successful president to possess in conducting foreign affairs and dealing with foreign adversaries . Obama consistently shows himself to be cool and calm under pressure. McCain has often shown himself to be a hot-head who easily loses his temper. Frankly that makes me uneasy about him.

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Originally Posted by ganeil View Post
Qualifications are not subjective. The other candidates were objectively more qualified than Obama.
By your own admission the only real qualifications to be President are those stated in the constitution which all of the candidates meet, including Obama. This means none of the candidates were objectively more qualified than Obama.
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      08-08-2008, 07:45 PM   #86
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I believe it's you who consistently underestimates the intelligence and wisdom of the American people. Thankfully your cynicism about white America is not shared by everyone. White guilt or any other kind of guilt is not the basis for Obama's success as a presidential candidate and the current front runner in the general eleciton. In fact, quite the opposite.
I am not cynical at all. I see Obama for what he is, an empty suit who plays the race card. The fact that it worked for a portion of the democrat primary electorate says more about them than me. There is not a reputable national poll that shows Obama as the front runner. They are all within the margin of error at a time when the democrat nominee should be walking away with the election. The fact that Obama is not says a lot about the doubts that a majority of Americans have with him.

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Did YOU actually read what I posted or are you just too blinded by your personal and political biases and prejudices to acknowledge Senator Obama's accomplishments. You selectively omitted the phrases "sponsored", "led unanimous, bipartisan passage of", "took an active role in", "co-sponsored", "successfully introduced a bill", etc.
You cut and pasted a long list of alleged accomplishments of which 2/3 were not accomplishments at all. For the record, co-sponsorship and taking a role in are not indicative of acheivement either.

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It's unfortunate that you are unable to allow yourself to acknowledge the credibility, accomplishments and appeal of a man who you may not agree with politically.
I have no problem acknowledging the credibility or accomplishments of those I disagree with politically. It is simply that Sen Obama has a decided lack of either. I disagree with Sen Kennedy, Sen Feinstein, Rep Rangel, Sen Lieberman, Al Gore, Bill Clinton and a host of others but there is no question that they are or have been effective legislators or executives.

You have allowed yourself to be blinded to Obama's lack of experience by his charisma.


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I said before I won't engage in to a tit for tat gaffe comparison. It's clear to me your biases will not allow you to evaluate anything concerning Obama objectively, so there's just no point. Both men have made their gaffes and will probably make more before November. Let's just leave it at that.
Smart not getting in a fight you cannot win.

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I believe the right personality and temperment are extremely important traits for a successful president to possess in conducting foreign affairs and dealing with foreign adversaries . Obama consistently shows himself to be cool and calm under pressure. McCain has often shown himself to be a hot-head who easily loses his temper. Frankly that makes me uneasy about him.
When have we ever seen Obama under pressure?

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By your own admission the only real qualifications to be President are those stated in the constitution which all of the candidates meet, including Obama. This means none of the candidates were objectively more qualified than Obama.
So a person with 20 years of sales experience is not objectively more qualified than a person with 20 days of sales experience for a job that requires sales experience?
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      08-08-2008, 08:03 PM   #87
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guys please, obama is not muslim! until very recently, and for a long time, he belonged to a balck power christian chruch. after his pastor, a long time mentor of obama, started speaking out against whites and against jews and israel, obama dissasociated from the church. as far as race, i think he is mostly arab and he was educated and brought up in a muslim country.

luckily i'm not in a swing vote state so its not like my vote counts. otherwise i would have a tough decision between obama and mcbush.
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      08-08-2008, 08:41 PM   #88
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Much like homesexuality, racial issues have a lot to do with ignorance.

The fact is, most Americans are not educated. Smart politicians and the media know this and can consequently pray on those who do not know any better.

A lot of things should not matter for a candidate. However, some folks go out of their way to ensure it does.

Jesse Jackson is a prime example of someone who can highjack a topic and twist facts to alienate or align African Americans. Educated people like Obama and Bill Cosby see right through it but they are ostricized due to once again, lack of education of many people for the most part.

If Americans overall were educated as they should be, I doubt we would see either candidate running for president. They would demand better rather than settling for whoever can market themselves better.
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