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      08-12-2008, 11:46 PM   #89
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I do believe I have made a very solid case to cover throttle and rpm effects in a simple and free fashion.
That's where we differ in opinion then, which is fine. If you really want to obtain the bounds, you will need to do tests in several rpms and throttle positions anyway. I don't know how many, but it will be more than just 2. I don't think low throttle/low rpm and high throttle/high rpm, will allow you to be conclusive if that's what you have in mind. Even if it does, I am interested in what happens in the transition exactly because that's what one will experience often during real-world driving conditions. There, one needs to make measurements until one sees a large effect (assuming things don't progress linearly, at least for the lag).

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And do you think this will be something you can and will get folks testing for the project without your supervision to install and get set up correctly on their gas pedal?
This setup does not really need to tour the continent. All that's needed is one or two people who can use it properly. The chances are all of the cars can be found in SoCa anyway.

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We don't have enough money right now to get all the gear we really need so how the heck can this even be on the table?
I answered that question 3 times I believe. I would have paid for the position sensor.

Anyway, I'm out of this one. No hard feelings. I just don't want to go back and forth like this when there are some clear differences of opinion and style. I'll be interested in seeing what you find out. I'll tinker with the setup in Boston and let everyone know if anything comes of it.
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      08-13-2008, 12:26 AM   #90
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That's where we differ in opinion then, which is fine. If you really want to obtain the bounds, you will need to do tests in several rpms and throttle positions anyway. I don't know how many, but it will be more than just 2. I don't think low throttle/low rpm and high throttle/high rpm, will allow you to be conclusive if that's what you have in mind. Even if it does, I am interested in what happens in the transition exactly because that's what one will experience often during real-world driving conditions. There, one needs to make measurements until one sees a large effect (assuming things don't progress linearly, at least for the lag).

This setup does not really need to tour the continent. All that's needed is one or two people who can use it properly. The chances are all of the cars can be found in SoCa anyway.

I answered that question 3 times I believe. I would have paid for the position sensor.

Anyway, I'm out of this one. No hard feelings. I just don't want to go back and forth like this when there are some clear differences of opinion and style. I'll be interested in seeing what you find out. I'll tinker with the setup in Boston and let everyone know if anything comes of it.
More good points, but I wish you wouldn't back out on this just yet. Chances are that this never even takes off, but if it does, I we'll need your expertise and perspective on this.
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      08-13-2008, 01:22 PM   #91
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Perhaps we have come to a slight impasse. I hope the throttle position thing has not totally derailed this effort. Here is my suggestion. All of you who have volunteered some funds, let's move forward with that. I will fund the extra 100 or so bucks to get a decent DAQ and good accel and work on borrowing the current probe. You each volunteered the money before the throttle discussion and there is no reason we can not answer all of the central questions of shift times (including lag times) with the system and method I have proposed. I'll pm each of you some details on making payments. As I have said this equipment will be the joint property of those funding the effort. I am looking forward to some excellent data and results.
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      08-13-2008, 04:42 PM   #92
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Swamp, as I said earlier, I'm not going along with what you are proposing (there was no specific testing method in place at the time of my donation post). Not sure why you are PMing me. I volunteered the funds with the reasonable assumption that we would all have some kind of say in how they would be used. I am not going to hand someone cash, be lectured in return and have my considerations set aside, all in the name of some distorted notion of "leadership". You want to do it your way, you pay for it. You want to come back to the real world, and reach an agreement on the testing method, then I'll pitch in.
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      08-13-2008, 04:53 PM   #93
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Originally Posted by lucid View Post
Swamp, as I said earlier, I'm not going along with what you are proposing. Not sure why you are PMing me. I volunteered the funds with the reasonable assumption that we would all have some kind of say in how they would be used. I am not going to hand someone cash, be lectured in return and have my considerations set aside, all in the name of some distorted notion of "leadership". You want to do it your way, you pay for it. You want to come back to the real world, and reach an agreement on the testing method, then I'll pitch in.
I tried to explain this much to swamp a short while ago and was shot down in flames. To be a people-person as swamp says he is you need to listen to what they say first and foremost.

Your reasons are similar to why I haven't dripped my hand in my pocket, you want to know that what you get it what you are asking for.
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      08-13-2008, 04:58 PM   #94
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I tried to explain this much to swamp a short while ago and was shot down in flames.
I don't think you were shot down or anything. Speaking for myself, I heard you loud and clear.
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      08-13-2008, 05:06 PM   #95
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Swamp, as I said earlier, I'm not going along with what you are proposing (there was no specific testing method in place at the time of my donation post). Not sure why you are PMing me. I volunteered the funds with the reasonable assumption that we would all have some kind of say in how they would be used. I am not going to hand someone cash, be lectured in return and have my considerations set aside, all in the name of some distorted notion of "leadership". You want to do it your way, you pay for it. You want to come back to the real world, and reach an agreement on the testing method, then I'll pitch in.
this man doesnt believe in democracy

on a serious note i have been reading this thread, and i think it's great what you guys are trying to do. i did not want to post earlier so i dont ruin the thread, and i hate to see the idea not going thru coz of personal issues. i hope you guys carry on this mission as professionally as possible, but in the friendliest way.
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      08-13-2008, 05:17 PM   #96
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I don't think you were shot down or anything. Speaking for myself, I heard you loud and clear.
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Thanks for the vote of confidence footie. I'm sure you could organize the equipment and testing much better than me. I have been crystal clear about what kinds of results you can expect and have listed those previously. You can stop with the insults such as "pigheaded" when you sir seem to not be able to read.
May be my interpretation of being shot down is flames is different than yours.

I never said I was the man for the job or could perform it better. I was only highlighting to him that his way with people was getting the thing derailed before it ever started and he needed to listen to others instead of always pushing through his own opinions.

We do need a leader for this to work but there is a way of doing things and this is not it. Constructive criticism shouldn't be viewed as a personal attack.

Edit: I just wished the guy would see other people's points of view without going off the handle into a personal attack, always questioning their intelligence. I think the info and knowledge he brings is great but he needs to learn how to conduct himself at times, take a leaf out of Bruce's book.
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      08-13-2008, 06:14 PM   #97
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May be my interpretation of being shot down is flames is different than yours.

I never said I was the man for the job or could perform it better.
I was not referring to that part of the discussion. I guess you had something else in mind when mentioning getting shot down.

Anyway, although you might not be the person to conduct these tests because you don't have a technical background, there is nothing particularly difficult about them. We are not trying to land an M3 on the moon. To put it in perspective, from a technical standpoint, any 4th year engineering student in good standing should be able to do the job. And you know how many of those are in the US? How about China?
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      08-13-2008, 06:36 PM   #98
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I think it would also be beneficial to write up some fairly detailed specifications/parameters for the testing process beforehand. This will allow everyone to weigh in and optimize the process.
I posted this in the very beginning, and I was under the impression that the last 5 pages of the thread (with a few detours) have been a part of this initial proposal/evaluation process. Naturally, as we've discussed the goals and methodology of this project, they have evolved.

Swamp, while I appreciate you taking the lead on this as well as your input and constructive criticism, you've been very resistant to and dictatorial regarding the exchange of ideas and recommendations. I understand that we could all sit around forever throwing out various ideas and suggestions, and this has to be reined in at some point, but I don't think we've gotten to that point yet, and your responses to new ideas have been unduly suppressive.

If we're going to be a team financially, we need to be on the same page conceptually. Hopefully, those of us (me included) who understand our technical limitations won't get in the way too much. At the same time, the contributions of those who do have knowledge and skill in this type of thing should be appreciated, not rejected out of hand.

Anyway, I'm still willing to contribute, but I guess I'm in a holding pattern until we get ourselves past this impasse.
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      08-13-2008, 06:38 PM   #99
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Anyway, although you might not be the person to conduct these tests because you don't have a technical background, there is nothing particularly difficult about them. We are not trying to land an M3 on the moon. To put it in perspective, from a technical standpoint, any 4th year engineering student in good standing should be able to do the job. And you know how many of those are in the US? How about China?
Yeah, but Ireland is a different story.
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      08-14-2008, 02:16 AM   #100
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A few comments before "signing off" here.

Lucid: I never "lectured" you. I am sorry that you feel this way, but I won't apologize for doing so.

Footie: There were no attacks here. Neither from nor toward me, period.

Tlud: Your point about sitting around forever, is key to me and obviously I have decided to not do so.


And with that...


Thanks guys I appreciated the (prior) votes of confidence with your wallets. This has unfortunately become a case of paralysis by democracy. I understand that everyone wants to be heard and has their own ideas, I am no different. Yet at the same time I do have very strong opinions about not wasting time nor money. My adherence these ideals has obviously met its match in this need for a complete democracy. Most folks here agreed to funding well before any concrete details were offered. We somewhat derailed ourselves here with pages of paralysis by analysis... well not the perfect term but you will get my point. I guess I just can not balance the sensitivity to all of the strong egos, these aforementioned ideals of mine and the time and effort required to pull this whole thing off in a fashion that makes everyone happy. As well it appears to be quite obvious that my single minded goal of quality and results over folks feelings is not compatible with doing work based on donations. It would have been fun, but I am going to throw in the towel at this point.
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      08-14-2008, 03:48 AM   #101
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As well it appears to be quite obvious that my single minded goal of quality and results over folks feelings is not compatible with doing work based on donations.
Swamp, the above sentence really summarizes the issue. While it is true that "style", "egos", and naturally "feelings" are involved in any type of teamwork, that is not what has put my participation on hold. It is the opinion that is implied in your sentence I quoted above and its technical implications for the broader effort: that you are the only person here who has "a goal of quality and results".

I simply seem to want to collect more detailed information than you do. This does not mean that the data you want to collect is too simplistic, or the data I want to collect is irrelevant. They will answer slightly different questions.

I, for one, am sick and tired of reading different people's opinions "the delay". I want to find out how long it is exactly under some common every day driving conditions. I understand that you are not interested in that level of characterization, and that determining the min and max values will suffice for you. Yes, what I want to do is more involved, and will result in some kind of mapping of a few carefully selected throttle positions and shift rpms and delay durations. That will indeed increase testing time, and to some level, complexity. But that does not mean that "a goal of quality and results" is not my consideration.

That is the kind of language/opinion I refer to as "lecturing". Although I find that somewhat offensive, I don’t expect an apology from you. No point in making the discussion that personal. I consider you a friend regardless of this back and forth. I want this effort to answer the technical questions that I am curious about.

I think there is a solution that might help us move forward. We buy the basic equipment now--the DAQ and the accelerometer. If you can find a probe and develop a method to detect the shift command, that would be great. If not, that's also fine. You guys (in SoCal) measure whatever you can with that equipment on as many cars on the list as you can during August-September. That would be the "First Phase" of the project.

Then you ship the equipment to me. I pitch the "Second Phase" of the project, the inclusion of throttle position measurement, to my students as a "Motorsports Instrumentation Independent Study". Although there is no way for me to judge the level of interest from students, I think I can probably recruit a couple of car freaks. Working closely with me, they come up with a solid experiment design, develop a throttle position sensor, and run the additional tests on a DCT car only October-November. (I’d be happy if we could characterize throttle position effects for the M3 only). I've also been meaning to collect data on flow rates and pressures from the three air intakes, and I can try to fold that into the independent study as well. If that all happens, the students and the rest of us all learn something. If the independent study doesn't happen, I'll just try to work on the throttle position measurement on my own if I can set aside the time as things begin to get busy for me beginning September.

How does that sound? A workable compromise I hope?
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      08-14-2008, 07:27 AM   #102
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I would be willing to contribute to this 2-part effort.
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      08-14-2008, 09:28 AM   #103
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Lucid,

What you are suggesting is the best compromise to end this dilemma. I'm with you on the need to have a more detailed examination of what different throttle positions and rev inputs have on the delay. I also understand where swamp is coming from, the delay though something that is annoying doesn't affect the actual shift itself (well that's what we believe is going on).

Both things are important to know, if only to put to rest these endless debates from all parties (DCT - SMG and MT).

Sent swamp a PM, and I hope things get back on track once more.
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      08-14-2008, 10:29 AM   #104
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Sent swamp a PM, and I hope things get back on track once more.
Sounds like you've decided to formally join the effort.
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      08-14-2008, 10:37 AM   #105
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Sounds like you've decided to formally join the effort.
Lets just see how things progress, when we can't even decide on plan of action what chance does organising all the equipment and conducting the tests have.
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      08-14-2008, 01:07 PM   #106
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Swamp, the above sentence really summarizes the issue. While it is true that "style", "egos", and naturally "feelings" are involved in any type of teamwork, that is not what has put my participation on hold. It is the opinion that is implied in your sentence I quoted above and its technical implications for the broader effort: that you are the only person here who has "a goal of quality and results".

I simply seem to want to collect more detailed information than you do. This does not mean that the data you want to collect is too simplistic, or the data I want to collect is irrelevant. They will answer slightly different questions.

I, for one, am sick and tired of reading different people's opinions "the delay". I want to find out how long it is exactly under some common every day driving conditions. I understand that you are not interested in that level of characterization, and that determining the min and max values will suffice for you. Yes, what I want to do is more involved, and will result in some kind of mapping of a few carefully selected throttle positions and shift rpms and delay durations. That will indeed increase testing time, and to some level, complexity. But that does not mean that "a goal of quality and results" is not my consideration.

That is the kind of language/opinion I refer to as "lecturing". Although I find that somewhat offensive, I donít expect an apology from you. No point in making the discussion that personal. I consider you a friend regardless of this back and forth. I want this effort to answer the technical questions that I am curious about.

I think there is a solution that might help us move forward. We buy the basic equipment now--the DAQ and the accelerometer. If you can find a probe and develop a method to detect the shift command, that would be great. If not, that's also fine. You guys (in SoCal) measure whatever you can with that equipment on as many cars on the list as you can during August-September. That would be the "First Phase" of the project.

Then you ship the equipment to me. I pitch the "Second Phase" of the project, the inclusion of throttle position measurement, to my students as a "Motorsports Instrumentation Independent Study". Although there is no way for me to judge the level of interest from students, I think I can probably recruit a couple of car freaks. Working closely with me, they come up with a solid experiment design, develop a throttle position sensor, and run the additional tests on a DCT car only October-November. (Iíd be happy if we could characterize throttle position effects for the M3 only). I've also been meaning to collect data on flow rates and pressures from the three air intakes, and I can try to fold that into the independent study as well. If that all happens, the students and the rest of us all learn something. If the independent study doesn't happen, I'll just try to work on the throttle position measurement on my own if I can set aside the time as things begin to get busy for me beginning September.

How does that sound? A workable compromise I hope?
Lucid,

You have an extraordinary ability to articulate your thoughts and feelings precisely. How about serving in public office in one capacity or another, maybe in a financial sector? Goodness knows, our economy could use few able men.
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      08-14-2008, 01:11 PM   #107
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OC Kid should lead this. he's the chillest dude i know in person and on the forum, despite his avi

from what i read i dont think any of you guys know what you're doing/talking about. otherwise u'd know where/how to start away from this unprofessional attitude. no offense to any of you, gentlemen.

i hope things work out. im willing to help, but i am not sure how. i have a 6MT car, i can spare some cash, and i have elaborate post whoring abilities
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      08-14-2008, 04:28 PM   #108
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OC Kid should lead this. he's the chillest dude i know in person and on the forum, despite his avi

from what i read i dont think any of you guys know what you're doing/talking about. otherwise u'd know where/how to start away from this unprofessional attitude. no offense to any of you, gentlemen.

i hope things work out. im willing to help, but i am not sure how. i have a 6MT car, i can spare some cash, and i have elaborate post whoring abilities
Mantis, the task is fairly clear at this point. It really is a matter of devoting the necessary time and attention, which Swamp has gracefully volunteered. I have full confidence in Swamp in carrying out the portion of the test he has proposed, so no need to be concerned there. If you can spare some cash, I suggest you contact Swamp about that.
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      08-14-2008, 06:43 PM   #109
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Guys, thanks again for keeping this all going. I bought the DAQ and accel on my own dime. I will test my M-DCT vs. a 6MT car locally here (Navnurs - you reading??). If I can borrow a current probe I'll get lag and shift times. Don't worry I will write everything up with lots of detail. My car hunt therefore is still on. Any help is appreciated. I will let anyone capable of not ruining the equipment (my judgement) borrow the stuff as well.

P.S. Mantis: Do you really think we would all be so silly to try to do this if we did not know how to pull it off? That is what is really funny. I think it is even simpler than lucid mentioned - any decent undergrad ME could easily pull this off. It is hardly rocket science. You do know that both lucid and I have advanced degrees in a scientific area right? Again not to be bragging, but we are more than competent here for a task that to us is quite simple.
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      08-14-2008, 07:15 PM   #110
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Swamp, I'm on the front end of an all-nighter, but I'll attempt to shoot you a PayPal tonight or tomorrow. This weekend by the latest. Thanks again for taking the initiative on this.
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