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      07-31-2008, 04:05 PM   #23
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Quote:
Originally Posted by buckeyesi View Post
I think this is a case of the spoiled teenager complaining about how they don't get enough from their parents. Until you or I work for a car manufacturer and know the ins and outs of the process of building cars it's an arrogant statement to say that the company should cater only to your wishes. Sure, I would prefer the M division not to build an X5/X6 variant, but part of me does just because it presents a challenge to them and has the possibility of redefining the boundaries of what a "performance vehicle" can be.

As for the possible lack of a CSL? I think people forget that not only would the production costs be a lot more, BMW would have to crash test it as a completely different model than a standard M3. Along with other factors that I have no idea about I would not blame them one bit if they did not offer it in the US. Faced with the reality of things, it just doesn't make sense to do it right now.
Good post!

BMW enthusiasts must remember that the X5 4.6is/4.8is is, for all intents & purposes, the performance variant (..a'la...///M version) of the X5....

...albeit, without a true ///M badge. For an SAV, those particular X5 models produce stellar numbers; numbers that would be expected out of an ///M SAV.
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      07-31-2008, 04:07 PM   #24
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Quote:
Originally Posted by buckeyesi View Post
I think this is a case of the spoiled teenager complaining about how they don't get enough from their parents. Until you or I work for a car manufacturer and know the ins and outs of the process of building cars it's an arrogant statement to say that the company should cater only to your wishes. Sure, I would prefer the M division not to build an X5/X6 variant, but part of me does just because it presents a challenge to them and has the possibility of redefining the boundaries of what a "performance vehicle" can be.

As for the possible lack of a CSL? I think people forget that not only would the production costs be a lot more, BMW would have to crash test it as a completely different model than a standard M3. Along with other factors that I have no idea about I would not blame them one bit if they did not offer it in the US. Faced with the reality of things, it just doesn't make sense to do it right now.


Please......

I have owned 3 generations of M cars. This is the wrong path and the only opinion that matters is mine because I am the consumer.

We have seen many car companies go way off base and BMW ///M just took a first step.
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      07-31-2008, 04:12 PM   #25
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Quote:
Originally Posted by T Bone View Post

We have seen many car companies go way off base and BMW ///M just took a first step.
Interesting! I've been hearing comments like this ever since the E30 was replaced. People hated the E36, but then grew to love it. The E46 was considered the bloated pig of the ///M variants, now some people hail it as the last real ///M car ever since the E92 was introduced. The E92 and its future iterations are being scrutinized, but it will eventually be loved by the masses too. It seems that people will never be satisfied (..obviously). Denial/scrutiny usually comes before realization/acceptance.
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      07-31-2008, 04:16 PM   #26
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Originally Posted by Sedan_Clan View Post
Interesting! I've been hearing comments like this ever since the E30 was replaced. It seems that people will never be satisfied (..obviously).

Except they are catering a new market and not servicing its base properly.

Since the E30 M3, they have updated their view of what a performance car is. The E30 M3 was a homologation special and BMW got lucky.

Going down the path of 5000 lb trucks is so far off the ///M philosophy of the past 20 years, it is sad.

I hope BMW gets a bit of fast soccer mom market but if their new generation of cars looks like good handling AMGs, I am off to Ferrari.

I am sure I am not alone.
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      07-31-2008, 04:20 PM   #27
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Quote:
Originally Posted by T Bone View Post

Going down the path of 5000 lb trucks is so far off the ///M philosophy of the past 20 years, it is sad.

I hope BMW gets a bit of fast soccer mom market but if their new generation of cars looks like good handling AMGs, I am off to Ferrari.
Did you read my above post about the performance X5's? The recipe was/is already there; the badge is all that is missing. My question to you is...

...If Porsche can do it, why shouldn't/can't BMW?

Lastly, it must be nice to have Ferrari as an alternative (...although, I believe that you have it backwards). Most of us don't have the capital to consider a car of that caliber. Have fun!
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      07-31-2008, 04:23 PM   #28
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Quote:
Originally Posted by T Bone View Post
Except they are catering a new market and not servicing its base properly.

Since the E30 M3, they have updated their view of what a performance car is. The E30 M3 was a homologation special and BMW got lucky.

Going down the path of 5000 lb trucks is so far off the ///M philosophy of the past 20 years, it is sad.

I hope BMW gets a bit of fast soccer mom market but if their new generation of cars looks like good handling AMGs, I am off to Ferrari.

I am sure I am not alone.

I really doubt that most ///M customers are able to afford a Ferrari, if they could, why would you be driving an M car unless it was one of many cars in your collection.. Why don't you forward a link of one of these threads to BMW?
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      07-31-2008, 04:27 PM   #29
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sedan_Clan View Post
Did you read my above post about the performance X5's? The recipe was/is already there; the badge is all that is missing. My question to you is...

...If Porsche can do it, why shouldn't/can't BMW?

Lastly, it must be nice to have Ferrari as an option. Most of us don't have the capital to consider a car of that caliber. Have fun!

Look at Porsche today, they may be the most profitable car company in the world, that just means they got suckers to pay up for their horrible products and the 911 is long due for some innovation.

The Porsche Cayenne and Panamera are ridiculous. Cayenne handles like any 5000 lb truck should. Panamera is another diversion away from innovating the 911.

BMW ///M is known for innovation. The did that for the current generation of M cars. Now they are favoring a cash grab and catering to bigger market with a compromised product.

The big distinction is what is good for BMW (profitability) may not be good for consumers (we want high performance GTs and sedans). If we start seeing ///M trucks, and compromised GTs / sedans (because they can't afford to invest in both).....that is the end of BMW ///M. It will take a generation for this to play out but the writing is on the wall.
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      07-31-2008, 04:31 PM   #30
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On my visit to M-werke in March, I was told that a CLS version was probably not going to be offered.

The simple reason they gave was that it is almost impossible to gain a significant weight reduction on the E92 M3.

What can they do ? The roof is already made in carbon fiber, trunk and hood are aluminum as are most of the suspension parts.

In Germany, you can already buy the E92 m3 without the nav and the extended audio.
(In fact it comes that way standard. )

And if you're thinking to drop the air conditioner : even Le Mans racing cars have got AC these days...

I know they tried as several cars in the M-werke lot had the seats from the E46 CSL but an E93 CSL would not be worth the CSL badge for the same reason as the 850CI a few years ago had no right on that badge.
A CSL should be something very different and the E92 is just too good to make that possible.

Kudos to BMW for not selling a semi-CSL M car. I'm sure they know an M with that badge would sell even if it was not that ...csl.


As for the extra HP : with 470 BHP, the V8 would come very close to the m5/m6 engines and You can get that from AC Schnitzer by the end of the year true the use of sport cats and different engine software.


I have a pre-order on that kit !


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      07-31-2008, 04:34 PM   #31
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Krueger///M3 View Post
I really doubt that most ///M customers are able to afford a Ferrari, if they could, why would you be driving an M car unless it was one of many cars in your collection.. Why don't you forward a link of one of these threads to BMW?

I actually wrote an exec several months ago urging to keep the blood pure. I got a nice token of appreciation (an ///M pin).

I like the raw naturally aspirated cars and Ferrari seems to be the only company investing in this experience. I am not a fan of the rear engine 911s.

Discounting my personal preference, if BMW builds medicore sedans / GTs, it would drive otherwise loyal customers elsewhere. Porsche 911s, Nissan GTRs, Ferrari, Corvettes, Aston Martins, AMG, God forbid Audi.....pick your poison.
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      07-31-2008, 04:34 PM   #32
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Quote:
Originally Posted by T Bone View Post
Look at Porsche today, they may be the most profitable car company in the world, that just means they got suckers to pay up for their horrible products and the 911 is long due for some innovation.

The Porsche Cayenne and Panamera are ridiculous. Cayenne handles like any 5000 lb truck should. Panamera is another diversion away from innovating the 911.
I agree that the Panamera is a ridiculous concept, and I'm not fond of the Cayenne. You'll receive no argument from me on Porsches' behalf. My point in mentioning Porsche is that sometimes (..or not) a company has to follow market trends in order to usher in new business. I understand that this aspect of running a business does alienate current customers occasionally, but a business has to put itself first in order to survive.


Quote:
Originally Posted by T Bone View Post
BMW ///M is known for innovation. The did that for the current generation of M cars. Now they are favoring a cash grab and catering to bigger market with a compromised product.

The big distinction is what is good for BMW (profitability) may not be good for consumers (we want high performance GTs and sedans). If we start seeing ///M trucks, and compromised GTs / sedans (because they can't afford to invest in both).....that is the end of BMW ///M. It will take a generation for this to play out but the writing is on the wall.
Again, read my statement about performance X5's. The recipe is already established. It isn't a far stretch of the imagination by any means for an X5 to come with an ///M badge. I, along w/ many other BMW enthusiasts, have considered the 4.6is/4.8is to be makeshift ///M versions of the X5.
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      07-31-2008, 04:37 PM   #33
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Quote:
Originally Posted by T Bone View Post
BMW ///M is known for innovation. The did that for the current generation of M cars. Now they are favoring a cash grab and catering to bigger market with a compromised product.
Is KERS hybrid system not innovative enough for your taste?


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      07-31-2008, 04:48 PM   #34
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Quote:
Originally Posted by southlight View Post
Is KERS hybrid system not innovative enough for your taste?


Best regards, south

On this specific issues, I would be impressed if they used KER to eliminate turbo lag.

I love naturally aspirated engines.....but if the ///M engineers believe they can deliver linear power delivery, no lag and better economy, I would not second guess them....they are really good. This is a technical decision and as an internet hack, I don't have the data or discipline to challenge ///M engineering decisions.

The main area of contention is their shift in corporate focus within ///M. The deliberate de-emphasis on core GT / Sedans / cars on trucks is very disturbing.

BMW as a brand works because ///M is a trailblazer for technology and innovation. Once you blunt the ///M spearhead, the entire family suffers.

Look at AMG..... It was no longer serving a purpose at MB to blaze a path because they had stupid trucks like the ML63. Look what they had to do.....create the "Black Series".

BMW already has the "Black Series" today and they are regressing into the lowest common denominator. For BMW to truly benefit from ///M, they need to keep ///M pure..... heck they could do a middle brand like a tii to address fast trucks but not ///M.
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      07-31-2008, 06:42 PM   #35
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Quote:
Originally Posted by T Bone View Post
Please......

I have owned 3 generations of M cars. This is the wrong path and the only opinion that matters is mine because I am the consumer.

We have seen many car companies go way off base and BMW ///M just took a first step.
Listen, guy. They have been on this precise path since the E30, and the E9X series is just another iteration of bigger and heavier, albeit faster, cars.

I'm personally surprised and gratified with my E90 drive, which showed me that, although I could feel the size and heft in certain venues, the car was actually more overall fun to drive than the completely unlamented E46 that graced our garage for a time. That is a welcome reversal of form.

As far as I can tell, each M iteration has made more money for BMW than the last, so even though the 635 "M" may be my favorite of all time, they're on the right track for the company if you lay aside your passion in favor of merciless financial analysis.

Bruce
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      07-31-2008, 06:54 PM   #36
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I think TB wants to keep M exclusive and to his liking. I agree with Bruce that the latest M3 is the best M3 overall if not necessarily the best ever M3, it might have compromised some areas for refinement and comfort but not to the extreme that performance or handling have suffered, only the finer feel of the controls and to me when away from the track a less nerves steering is a good thing.

The debate of whether it's going to destroy the breed because of an SUV///M is plain silly, the same argument was leveled at Porsche with the Cayenne and it's a much stronger company now that ever. It's only the people who don't want to share with others that get up-tight and that's TB.
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      07-31-2008, 07:05 PM   #37
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Ok let me explain somthing, M cars cant possibly be that big of a cash cow
they only make up what? maybe 10% of sales every year. And considering the cost of manufacturing and development the profit margins are smaller, that and realy slow sales of the regular models, I just cant understand why a CSL is too hard to fit in.

And someone on this forum refered to me as a spoiled teenager who isnt getting what he wants, well the best I can say is this, I work hard for what I have and I hate to see that the first cars I ever fell in love with are starting to become just as common as all the other performance variants out there.

It would be one thing if M cars always were big, heavy, saloon based street monsters but they were'nt and for me (being Italian) heritage and sticking to purity are important.
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      07-31-2008, 07:15 PM   #38
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Quote:
Originally Posted by footie View Post
I think TB wants to keep M exclusive and to his liking. I agree with Bruce that the latest M3 is the best M3 overall if not necessarily the best ever M3, it might have compromised some areas for refinement and comfort but not to the extreme that performance or handling have suffered, only the finer feel of the controls and to me when away from the track a less nerves steering is a good thing.

The debate of whether it's going to destroy the breed because of an SUV///M is plain silly, the same argument was leveled at Porsche with the Cayenne and it's a much stronger company now that ever. It's only the people who don't want to share with others that get up-tight and that's TB.

You have a gift of misinterpretation. I don't want to drive mush like an Audi RS car. Get it?

I don't care if BMW is more profitable. I want them to make cars that I like. If they want to build trucks to cater to silly soccer moms and make money great do it but not at the expense of using the talented ///M engineering pool that would be otherwise spent on building really nice cars and GTs.
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      07-31-2008, 07:19 PM   #39
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bruce.augenstein@comcast. View Post
Listen, guy. They have been on this precise path since the E30, and the E9X series is just another iteration of bigger and heavier, albeit faster, cars.

I'm personally surprised and gratified with my E90 drive, which showed me that, although I could feel the size and heft in certain venues, the car was actually more overall fun to drive than the completely unlamented E46 that graced our garage for a time. That is a welcome reversal of form.

As far as I can tell, each M iteration has made more money for BMW than the last, so even though the 635 "M" may be my favorite of all time, they're on the right track for the company if you lay aside your passion in favor of merciless financial analysis.

Bruce

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  • E30 M3 --> E36 M3 --> E46 M3 --> E92 M3
  • E21 M5 --> E34 M5 --> E39 M5 --> E60 M5
  • E24 M6 -------------------------> E63 M6
  • Z3M --------------------> Z4M
/// Garbage and defocus

X6M
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      07-31-2008, 07:52 PM   #40
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Quote:
Originally Posted by T Bone View Post
///M Hertitage
  • E30 M3 --> E36 M3 --> E46 M3 --> E92 M3
  • E21 M5 --> E34 M5 --> E39 M5 --> E60 M5
  • E24 M6 -------------------------> E63 M6
  • Z3M --------------------> Z4M
/// Garbage and defocus

X6M
X5M
Do you think that the ///M devision was completely uninvolved in the creation of the previous X5 "is" models? I think that it is likely that they had some involvement in these and I personally agree with mkoesel in that these models will be labeled once again as "is" instead of "M."
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      07-31-2008, 08:13 PM   #41
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Originally Posted by Krueger///M3 View Post
Do you think that the ///M devision was completely uninvolved in the creation of the previous X5 "is" models? I think that it is likely that they had some involvement in these and I personally agree with mkoesel in that these models will be labeled once again as "is" instead of "M."
I don't think that he wants to accept that argument. I've mentioned it twice today with no response from him.


Quote:
Originally Posted by chicagobimmerboy View Post
Ok let me explain somthing, M cars cant possibly be that big of a cash cow
they only make up what? maybe 10% of sales every year. And considering the cost of manufacturing and development the profit margins are smaller, that and realy slow sales of the regular models, I just cant understand why a CSL is too hard to fit in.
I don't believe that difficulty is the core issue. The issue is with U.S. regulations and the sheer cost analysis of the project. BMW wouldn't sell enough CSL's here to make it very profitable, especially with the economy in its current state. It just doesn't make financial sense.
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      07-31-2008, 08:14 PM   #42
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I don't think that he wants to accept that argument. I've mentioned it twice today with no response from him.
Yeah, it definitely seems that way.
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      07-31-2008, 08:51 PM   #43
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Krueger///M3 View Post
Yeah, it definitely seems that way.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sedan_Clan View Post
I don't think that he wants to accept that argument. I've mentioned it twice today with no response from him.

Helping tune a suspension system is different than doing a full ///M car. Anytime spent on a truck is wasted.
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      07-31-2008, 08:54 PM   #44
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Quote:
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Helping tune a suspension system is different than doing a full ///M car. Anytime spent on a truck is wasted.
Well, we can simply hope that it is not a full blown ///M project and that they keep it as a BMW performance project.
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