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      07-28-2008, 08:11 PM   #1
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Audi keeps V8 for RS4 and RS5

Interesting piece of news if true.... At what I suspect is the height of the current "fuel crisis" Audi still plans to use V8's in the RS4 and RS5. While many here speculate that BMW will go back to a six, Audi on the other hand is sticking to the eight. And without forced induction as predicted months ago....

http://www.autoblog.com/2008/07/28/a...5-to-keep-v8s/

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      07-28-2008, 08:15 PM   #2
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JEllis View Post
Interesting piece of news if true.... At what I suspect is the height of the current "fuel crisis" Audi still plans to use V8's in the RS4 and RS5. While many here speculate that BMW will go back to a six, Audi on the other hand is sticking to the eight. And without forced induction as predicted months ago....

http://www.autoblog.com/2008/07/28/a...5-to-keep-v8s/

Jason

Thanks goodness, this will force BMW's hand to stick with naturally aspirated engine for the ///M cars.
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      07-29-2008, 04:21 AM   #3
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This doesn't surprise me - it would have been difficult for Audi to reliably extract the 450HP or so horsepower it needs to compete/better the M3 Coupe from a 3.0L supercharged engine.

450HP from the current 4.2L mill is certainly attainable, with the extra drive train losses it would probably put in on a par in terms of straight line performance with the M3...
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      07-29-2008, 06:03 AM   #4
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I just read in R&T that the supercharged six is for the S4 and that the RS4 gets the V8.
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      07-31-2008, 12:07 AM   #5
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Quote:
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Thanks goodness, this will force BMW's hand to stick with naturally aspirated engine for the ///M cars.
Yeah I hope so. I cant stand to see them change.
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      07-31-2008, 10:07 AM   #6
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Yeah I hope so. I cant stand to see them change.

Next gen M's will be forced induction....it is the end of ///M
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      07-31-2008, 10:25 AM   #7
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Quote:
Originally Posted by T Bone View Post
Next gen M's will be forced induction....it is the end of ///M
Is this fact TB, M's are indeed moving to FI.

I understand your dilemma but it's the most logic step to make and in any case, based on how good the 335i is I reckon it's in safe hands.
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      07-31-2008, 11:11 AM   #8
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It may have been too late in development for Audi to change. These aren't huge volume cars for Audi, so the events of the past several months may cost more to change now. The consumer who buys these cars is less sensitive to fuel prices anyway, notwithstanding those who are stretching to buy the car in the first place.
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      07-31-2008, 12:15 PM   #9
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Think about how long it took BMW to develop the current NA V8 in the M3. It showed up in the E46 M3. Then a V10 version in the M5/M6. I don't see the next generation Ms having a 6 cylinder FI engine as we haven't really seen any basis for such an engine in any form. My 2 cents...
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      07-31-2008, 12:44 PM   #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lucid View Post
Think about how long it took BMW to develop the current NA V8 in the M3. It showed up in the E46 M3. Then a V10 version in the M5/M6. I don't see the next generation Ms having a 6 cylinder FI engine as we haven't really seen any basis for such an engine in any form. My 2 cents...
It doesn't need to follow the same procedure this time. As you say the V8 started as a pure race engine. Maybe this time it's the other way and it all starts with the N54.

I know it's not opportune, but I personally would like to see an S65 derived V6 engine + DI + FI + a redline of about 8k. That would be an engine...damn, I'm dreaming...


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      07-31-2008, 04:41 PM   #11
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Quote:
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It doesn't need to follow the same procedure this time. As you say the V8 started as a pure race engine. Maybe this time it's the other way and it all starts with the N54.

I know it's not opportune, but I personally would like to see an S65 derived V6 engine + DI + FI + a redline of about 8k. That would be an engine...damn, I'm dreaming...
I doubt that the N54 design can be used to deliver 500+ hp even with larger displacement. It's having cooling issues the way it is, which I've read might have something to do with the design of the block. Also, it's probably heavier than they would like.

If the V10 will not fit properly and FI is a must for more power, I think they might look into an FI version of the S65 with 8 cylinders.

Also, on another note, (not directed at South), FI will not result in a drastic decrease in consumption during hardcore driving. People think if you strap on a turbocharger and reduce the number of cylinders, you will all of a sudden have a much more efficient engine at all times. Doesn't work that way exactly if the engine is being used to extract lots of power. FI results in significant savings when the engine is not being pushed--when you're driving around town or cruising on the highway as you don't need the boost which makes the engine act like a larger displacement engine and gives it more power. When you get on it, the savings won't be that drastic. Take the 911 Turbo engine, or a chipped N54, and the current S65. Strap them to a testbed. Run both of them at 400 hp output and measure consumption. How much of a difference in consumption will there be?
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      07-31-2008, 05:14 PM   #12
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Lucid,

You are correct FI only benefits economy when you are not on it as you put it. If they do go the FI route then small+large turbo combination could be the answer, the small unit giving little or no lag while the large one giving the top end grunt. Not so sure that 8500rpm would be on the cards, it might be possible in race mode but no use in normal road engines.

Personally I would go the supercharger route, MTM have shown wih their RS4SC that 8200rpm is very possible and still prove reliable, with BMW's money such an engine would be wee buns.
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      08-02-2008, 03:55 PM   #13
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Quote:
Originally Posted by T Bone View Post
Next gen M's will be forced induction....it is the end of ///M
I was thinking this too but Audi's decision will keep the pressure on BMW to retain hi-po naturally aspirated - just a hunch.
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      08-02-2008, 03:56 PM   #14
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Quote:
Originally Posted by southlight View Post
I know it's not opportune, but I personally would like to see an S65 derived V6 engine + DI + FI + a redline of about 8k. That would be an engine...damn, I'm dreaming...
I wouldn't be displeased by this kind of design
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      08-02-2008, 07:22 PM   #15
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People act like BMW does not have a forced induction history. BMW has had some potent turbo mills, both past and present.
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      08-02-2008, 11:44 PM   #16
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Aren't BMW doing a modified version of the X6 4.4L Twin Turbo for the next M5?
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      08-03-2008, 03:22 AM   #17
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People act like BMW does not have a forced induction history. BMW has had some potent turbo mills, both past and present.
Agreed but the M-Division's heritage is in N/A power units, though compared to the like of Porsche and Audi, BMW are not the company which springs to mind when you say to word 'turbo'.

Their efforts with the 335i are without a doubt one of the best applications of the technology, equal to anything that Audi have done prior to the mighty RS6 v10 unit and the latest 997turbo. But to be perfectly honest a 3.0L bi-turbo producing 300hp is not exactly stretching the envelope when you think Audi have a 2.0L single turbo unit producing 270hp and both the EVO and Imperza comfortable produce well in excess of 300hp. To put it in perspective, to match the TT/S is produce per litre, the 335i should be pushing 405hp. See where I am coming from.

What BMW went for with the 335i engine was the easy route, large capacity, two turbos and modest output per litre. One would expect very little lag, one would expect a large capacity engine feel, but for BMW to take the FI route for the next M3/5/6 would require a lot more thought than has been done here. The capacity will have to reduce compared to the previous engines and the desired output would need to be closer to 140hp/L to maintain the desired weight including turbo/piping etc and yet still delivery the feel of a large capacity engine and still crave revs, this is when BMW's engineering skill will be tested, far more than anything they have done in the past.

Because this time it's their reputation on the line.
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      08-03-2008, 03:40 AM   #18
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its the end of the world as we know it.....


the next M3 will have 0,9 liters and 55 hp.
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      08-03-2008, 01:24 PM   #19
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I know a hack of a lot of 335i guys like to pipe up about how quick their car is and to some extent it's comparable to the new M3.

Right

I found this from Youtube, twins - one with a stock 335i and the other in a stock S4. You be the judge if you think the 335i is all that mighty in the face of the evidence.

Personally my S5 would have walked an S4 and if you believe the BS that quattro drains power to the extent that TB believe then the 335i should have win easy, remember the 335i have been dynoed to produce a lot more than the quoted 306hp, it's more like 330hp.

So lets say 330hp (rwd and 12% drivetrain lose) vs 344hp (awd and 25% draintrain lose)

[u2b]FX6hTiLnGII&feature=related[/u2b]
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      08-03-2008, 01:47 PM   #20
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Great, we didn't have enough 335i bragging lately.


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      08-04-2008, 04:00 PM   #21
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Quote:
Originally Posted by footie View Post
Agreed but the M-Division's heritage is in N/A power units, though compared to the like of Porsche and Audi, BMW are not the company which springs to mind when you say to word 'turbo'.

Their efforts with the 335i are without a doubt one of the best applications of the technology, equal to anything that Audi have done prior to the mighty RS6 v10 unit and the latest 997turbo. But to be perfectly honest a 3.0L bi-turbo producing 300hp is not exactly stretching the envelope when you think Audi have a 2.0L single turbo unit producing 270hp and both the EVO and Imperza comfortable produce well in excess of 300hp. To put it in perspective, to match the TT/S is produce per litre, the 335i should be pushing 405hp. See where I am coming from.

What BMW went for with the 335i engine was the easy route, large capacity, two turbos and modest output per litre. One would expect very little lag, one would expect a large capacity engine feel, but for BMW to take the FI route for the next M3/5/6 would require a lot more thought than has been done here. The capacity will have to reduce compared to the previous engines and the desired output would need to be closer to 140hp/L to maintain the desired weight including turbo/piping etc and yet still delivery the feel of a large capacity engine and still crave revs, this is when BMW's engineering skill will be tested, far more than anything they have done in the past.

Because this time it's their reputation on the line.
I don't see where you are coming from because the answer is obvious as to why the 335 is not putting out more power. It clearly is capable of it, as is the v8 twin turbo.

When talking about power per liter, BMW has demonstrated they are capable of being at the head of the game.

The comment that their reputation is on the line this time does not make any sense to me. The reputation of any quality company is on the line with every product and service they offer throughout their history, not just at certain times to certain individuals.
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      08-05-2008, 02:29 AM   #22
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Quote:
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I don't see where you are coming from because the answer is obvious as to why the 335 is not putting out more power. It clearly is capable of it, as is the v8 twin turbo.
I know the engine is capable of more power, that was not my point. What BMW will need to do is combine more power per litre with the extra revs and still make it smooth and with little or no lag. This is where the skill will come in.

Quote:
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When talking about power per liter, BMW has demonstrated they are capable of being at the head of the game.
I am not talking about N/A engines, we all know BMW's skill in this field. The above answer is what I want to see.

Quote:
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The comment that their reputation is on the line this time does not make any sense to me. The reputation of any quality company is on the line with every product and service they offer throughout their history, not just at certain times to certain individuals.
You can produce a shitty car when it's a run of the mill mainstream motor and get away with it. To many the 1 series Hatchback was that car, the same for the Z8, but when it carries the badge of an M and more importantly the M3, then you need something very special. A forced induction version will have to be better than ever before and we all know that any lag affects the balance in a corner, something that the M3 has always prided itself in.

Like I say there is a lot at stake.
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