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      08-01-2008, 03:05 AM   #45
swamp2
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Quote:
Originally Posted by footie View Post
To quote from BMW's own press release 'The M-DCT transmission with Drivelogic shifts gears without the slightest interruption in the flow of power', zero lose in power means zero lose in forward momentum.

You can't preach one part of the press release to me (how the surge was created) and disregard the rest just because you disagree with it. If you prove there is a lose in momentum then that proves that what BMW wrote was wrong, and that might include the rest of their release (surge) as well.
Well actually I am free to do exactly as I like. Just to humor you I will elaborate in much greater detail.

I am the first to criticize BMW marketing. They do a lot of good work but often on purely technical points they just get it wrong or really stretch things. I don't recall preaching to you from BMWs press release on M-DCT about how the surge was created. I have other arguments and sources for that. I have indeed quoted that document selectively. Obviously I don't believe the quote therein of shift times in "milliseconds". It is just not possible. I may have used those times in simulations just to explore simulations but it reality it is not possible. However, when they say things like "lifetime fluid" or designed for hard track use, those things are either True/False or very darn clear cut. Read, interpret, filter with some logic and experience and decide for yourself.

What you have in quotes above ("without the slightest loss...") is clearly marketing. PURE marketing. Think for yourself! The spark gets cut, the acceleration stops during that time, period. Logic and physics dictate a loss in momentum, however small. I am always trying to speak precisely and encourage others to do so as well.
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      08-01-2008, 03:48 AM   #46
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swamp,

I was only messing with you mate. You know when I discuss things they are at times very tongue in cheek and this was one of those occasions.
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      08-01-2008, 05:52 AM   #47
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Quote:
Originally Posted by swamp2 View Post
1. Agreed that accelerometers even high frequency tri-ax ones are not particularly high tech, but they are high tech for this crowd.

2. Your bias against me is clearly evident and offensive. I would probably be THE best guy here to do testing like this. Nice try to take your words back but still really lame in the end. Why is it that you just can not believe that to me the truth and understanding are infinitely more important than brands and loyalty. You just do not know me, not yet, not after all of our banter, not one iota.

Thanks lucid!

OC: We need at least 500 Hz capability and DC capability as well. The accels and data acquisition system both have to be capable at this frequency.

Foot: There is a loss in momentum with a DC, just really small (i.e. it is not zero loss).
Swamp, to Bruce's credit, he did reconsider his statement and took action. (not that I've meant to get in the middle of you guy's banter, but I guess I did).

Anyway, how do you plan to calibrate the accelerometer? More importantly, if we were to put together a setup, would you have access to other DC cars such as an Audi and a GTR? A Ferrari would be nice, too!
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      08-01-2008, 07:28 AM   #48
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Quote:
Originally Posted by swamp2 View Post
...2. Your bias against me is clearly evident and offensive. I would probably be THE best guy here to do testing like this. Nice try to take your words back but still really lame in the end. Why is it that you just can not believe that to me the truth and understanding are infinitely more important than brands and loyalty. You just do not know me, not yet, not after all of our banter, not one iota.
The fact that you are an honest PITA doesn't make you any less of a PITA as far as I am concerned. What part of that didn't you get?

Bruce
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      08-01-2008, 12:25 PM   #49
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The fact that you are an honest PITA doesn't make you any less of a PITA as far as I am concerned. What part of that didn't you get?

Bruce
I said exactly what I wanted to say above. Period.
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      08-01-2008, 12:31 PM   #50
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lucid View Post
Swamp, to Bruce's credit, he did reconsider his statement and took action. (not that I've meant to get in the middle of you guy's banter, but I guess I did).

Anyway, how do you plan to calibrate the accelerometer? More importantly, if we were to put together a setup, would you have access to other DC cars such as an Audi and a GTR? A Ferrari would be nice, too!
No worries. I appreciated your comments.

Access to other cars is indeed a problem on my end. Not enough buddies with nice rides. Have not considered the calibratioin of the accels fully. Many do come calibrated though with a mv/V/g spec or similar. An ideal test from my perspective would be:

M3, GT-R, GTI, 430 Scud, Mitsubishi Evo, the Jag XK-R automatic and a top notch short throw MT vehicle.
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      08-01-2008, 01:42 PM   #51
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Originally Posted by swamp2 View Post
Access to other cars is indeed a problem on my end. Not enough buddies with nice rides. Have not considered the calibratioin of the accels fully. Many do come calibrated though with a mv/V/g spec or similar. An ideal test from my perspective would be:

M3, GT-R, GTI, 430 Scud, Mitsubishi Evo, the Jag XK-R automatic and a top notch short throw MT vehicle.
Maybe we can get Hans involved. Hans might be able to hook us up with someone from the EVO crowd.

Another approach might be to simply post in other car forums and invite people with different rides to do a test. I bet folks would be up for it. And, I'll volunteer the "top notch" MT vehicle.

Anyway, we don't have the equipment yet, so we'll see...
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      08-01-2008, 02:12 PM   #52
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Originally Posted by lucid View Post
Maybe we can get Hans involved. Hans might be able to hook us up with someone from the EVO crowd.

Another approach might be to simply post in other car forums and invite people with different rides to do a test. I bet folks would be up for it. And, I'll volunteer the "top notch" MT vehicle.

Anyway, we don't have the equipment yet, so we'll see...
I'm definitely willing to contribute to this scientific endeavor.

As far as a "top notch" MT vehicle, I think the M3 (and every other BMW) is out. Don't get me wrong, I have a 6MT on order and my E46 also had the 6MT, and I really like their feel, but even with an SSK, it isn't anywhere near as good or as fast as the MT in an S2000, for example. The throws are just too long and not nearly as crisp.
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      08-01-2008, 02:39 PM   #53
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I'm definitely willing to contribute to this scientific endeavor.

As far as a "top notch" MT vehicle, I think the M3 (and every other BMW) is out. Don't get me wrong, I have a 6MT on order and my E46 also had the 6MT, and I really like their feel, but even with an SSK, it isn't anywhere near as good or as fast as the MT in an S2000, for example. The throws are just too long and not nearly as crisp.
Yup, S2000 would be a good candidate. The driver will be more of a variable though than the car!
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      08-01-2008, 02:59 PM   #54
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TLud View Post
I'm definitely willing to contribute to this scientific endeavor.

As far as a "top notch" MT vehicle, I think the M3 (and every other BMW) is out. Don't get me wrong, I have a 6MT on order and my E46 also had the 6MT, and I really like their feel, but even with an SSK, it isn't anywhere near as good or as fast as the MT in an S2000, for example. The throws are just too long and not nearly as crisp.
Note the smiley in my post regarding top notch. The engine is where this car shines, and the transmission isn't bad and gets by...

Since this test has virtually no overhead once the equipment and the cars are available (the differential is not going to "fall off" or anything as some would like us to believe on that other thread), I suggest we do it both with MT M3 and S2000.
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      08-01-2008, 03:16 PM   #55
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Originally Posted by lucid View Post
Note the smiley in my post regarding top notch. The engine is where this car shines, and the transmission isn't bad and gets by...

Since this test has virtually no overhead once the equipment and the cars are available (the differential is not going to "fall off" or anything as some would like us to believe on that other thread), I suggest we do it both with MT M3 and S2000.
Very good point. It would be very interesting to see how the S2000 and M3 boxes compare to the double-clutch transmissions and, secondarily, to each other. That other thread regarding the involuntary diff drop just started to annoy me, so I'm ignoring it.

*I did catch the tongue-in-cheek nature of your earlier post -- I was more intending to logically flow from your post than directly respond to it.
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      08-01-2008, 05:49 PM   #56
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New thread started to address testing. Thanks guys.
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