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      07-27-2008, 02:55 PM   #1
lucid
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Ferrari's Dual Clutch Transmission is here

Ferrari is using a 7-speed dual clutch system in the new California. The following caught my attention:

"So for the last two years a lot of hard work has been put into making the Dual Clutch Transmission, or DCT, feel as sporting as the current F1 transmission – and Fedeli admits it’s been tricky. The final breakthrough came with a substantial redesign that shortened the pipe between the pump and the oil-immersed clutches, minimising the delay in response to gearchange requests (unlike BMW’s dual-clutch system, Ferrari’s uses oil-immersed clutches, not dry ones, enabling it to handle much higher levels of torque, suggesting that this gearbox may soon appear in its V12 cars)."

I don't know what the last sentence is about. To the best of my knowledge M-DCT uses wet clutches as well.

http://www.evo.co.uk/news/evonews/22...alifornia.html
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      07-27-2008, 04:05 PM   #2
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From the BMW Media Release 1/2008 (page 5):

“Always a step ahead when shifting gears.
The M double-clutch transmission with Drivelogic combines two gearbox components in one common housing with the same compact dimensions as a conventional manual gearbox. The “heart” of the new M double-clutch transmission in technical terms is formed by the two oil-cooled wet clutches.
One of the two clutches is for the even (2, 4, 6), the other for the uneven (1, 3, 5, 7) gears and, in addition, for the reverse gear.”


Also from M Double-Clutch Transmission with Drivelogic manual:

“GS7D36SG M double-clutch transmission features:
. Hydraulically operated double (wet) clutches”
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      07-27-2008, 04:19 PM   #3
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lucid View Post
I don't know what the last sentence is about. To the best of my knowledge M-DCT uses wet clutches as well.

Yes another case of journalist hack mixiing stuff up.

ArtPE and I had an interesting debate over wet clutches. I was trying to understand why BMW chose wet clutches but when looking at the design, a dry clutch system may not be possible since the gear clusters are an integral part of the clutches.....

Interesting too Ferrari was commenting on how important it was to have a sporting feeling.

I guess Footie is only person on earth who doesn't understand this.
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      07-27-2008, 04:24 PM   #4
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Quote:
Originally Posted by T Bone View Post
Yes another case of journalist hack mixiing stuff up.

ArtPE and I had an interesting debate over wet clutches. I was trying to understand why BMW chose wet clutches but when looking at the design, a dry clutch system may not be possible since the gear clusters are an integral part of the clutches.....

Interesting too Ferrari was commenting on how important it was to have a sporting feeling.

I guess Footie is only person on earth who doesn't understand this.
OK, now you've re-triggered a "surge" debate here, Footie's favorite. Let's see, what time is it in Ireland? How many more hour till sunrise?
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      07-27-2008, 04:26 PM   #5
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I guess Footie is only person on earth who doesn't understand this.
No, it is just clever marketing and the knowledge that it's what their customers (BMW and Ferrari) were use to and it's what they would be expecting. Anything different and smoother would quite possibly not be accepted.
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      07-27-2008, 04:35 PM   #6
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Quote:
Originally Posted by footie View Post
No, it is just clever marketing and the knowledge that it's what their customers (BMW and Ferrari) were use to and it's what they would be expecting. Anything different and smoother would quite possibly not be accepted.
Are you saying that the F1 tranmission is not smooth? You've driven one, right?
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      07-27-2008, 04:57 PM   #7
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Are you saying that the F1 transmission is not smooth? You've driven one, right?
Do you mean F1 as in Formula One or F360 and F430 F1 transmissions.

If it's the latter then the answer is yes, the F360 was awful, the worst system I have even driven, you flicked the paddle and it seemed an age before anything happened, the F430 is miles better but still well behind both DCT and DSG in many ways, smoothest being to most obvious.
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      07-27-2008, 05:25 PM   #8
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Quote:
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Do you mean F1 as in Formula One or F360 and F430 F1 transmissions.
The latter of course.
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      07-27-2008, 10:44 PM   #9
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I think I really like that california ferrari.
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      07-27-2008, 11:47 PM   #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by T Bone View Post
Interesting too Ferrari was commenting on how important it was to have a sporting feeling.

I guess Footie is only person on earth who doesn't understand this.
No sh*t........could someone please tell Footie this, so we don't have to wach SWAMP continually try to hammer Footie's head into the ground over it......
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      07-28-2008, 12:32 AM   #11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by e46e92love View Post
No sh*t........could someone please tell Footie this, so we don't have to wach SWAMP continually try to hammer Footie's head into the ground over it......
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      07-28-2008, 02:08 AM   #12
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Originally Posted by e46e92love View Post
No sh*t........could someone please tell Footie this, so we don't have to wach SWAMP continually try to hammer Footie's head into the ground over it......
You mean like proving the surge wasn't added like I always said it was and yet here we have Ferrari admitting as much.

Whether you prefer it or not was never my argument and still isn't, I have sampled the surge for myself and though I prefer S3~4 on occasions can see myself using the S5~6 as in full attack mode it does bring a kind of sportiness to the experience if only on the straights as such a thing it a major negative in corners and both BMW and Porsche achnowledge this and turn it off, no doubt Ferrari will follow suit.

You might not like what I have to say every time but I on this one thing I knew I was right.

P.S.

I don't know how Audi's new DSG will be like, maybe they will approach things different this time round and it too may have surge. Who knows because I certainly don't.
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      07-28-2008, 07:36 AM   #13
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Quote:
Originally Posted by footie View Post
You mean like proving the surge wasn't added like I always said it was and yet here we have Ferrari admitting as much.
Footie, if you read the quote I posted from the article, you'll see that Ferrari has associated sporting feel with reducing delay, not with surge.
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      07-28-2008, 08:17 AM   #14
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Not sure ifthis has been discussed but the Ferrari California Transmission is a Getrag unit......
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      07-28-2008, 08:48 AM   #15
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lucid View Post
Footie, if you read the quote I posted from the article, you'll see that Ferrari has associated sporting feel with reducing delay, not with surge.
Maye you haven't read the full discussion.

Joking aside, the delay is included by all the manufacturers as part of their shift time, that is why almost all DCT are rated at between 140~200ms, a similar time to that of good quality automatic. The only difference is the actual shift itself is lightening quick with DCT.

Quote:
Originally Posted by darkalley
Not sure ifthis has been discussed but the Ferrari California Transmission is a Getrag unit......
I wouldn't be surprised to see ZF or Getrag being behind this one. To the many that has sampled the new PDK for Porsche their feeling is that ZF's setup is the best to date. Their is always a possibility of Ferrari using their current partner Magneti Marelli.

On a different note, did you know that DCT was banned from F1. I suspect the cost in development would have given an unfair advantage to the big boys, so if their current transmissions shift in 30ms how quick does DCT do it in.
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      07-28-2008, 01:50 PM   #16
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Quote:
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You might not like what I have to say every time but I on this one thing I knew I was right.
Much to the contrary. Your position has always been that the surge is not a normal part of a DCT (despite anything being possible with software...) AND that surge does not improve performance AND that is was included ONLY for making it feel like SMG. I have shown you to be wrong on all accounts and now enigma has told us he has track based data acquisition proof that shows you are wrong. I beat you into submission where you basically agreed I am right but you still have this twisted little fantast that you are right as well. All I can say is:



And, by the way, where is your proof that DCTs are shifting in this range?

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...that is why almost all DCT are rated at between 140~200ms, a similar time to that of good quality automatic."
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      07-28-2008, 02:23 PM   #17
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Much to the contrary. Your position has always been that the surge is not a normal part of a DCT (despite anything being possible with software...) AND that surge does not improve performance AND that is was included ONLY for making it feel like SMG. I have shown you to be wrong on all accounts and now enigma has told us he has track based data acquisition proof that shows you are wrong. I beat you into submission where you basically agreed I am right but you still have this twisted little fantast that you are right as well. All I can say is:
swamp, all of these system cut the ignition at the point of the shift, it's the only way for shift to be seamless, that was by design from the very start, that is why Larry Lock commented that DCT by design was too smooth and needed sportiness engineered into it. BMW knew full well that such a setup would not be accepted because it's most likely customers were the very people who loved the SMG system prior to it. They needed a way of injecting the same sportiness and that was done by altering the rev point of when the second clutch engages to create the surge. I said quite early on that the NO BENEFIT thing was a misunderstanding with what I was told and that yes there was an improvement but thought it wouldn't outweigh the negatives.

As for the data, I would love to run my eye over it.

Maybe your opinion of what SUBMISSION is different to mine,

Quote:
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And, by the way, where is your proof that DCTs are shifting in this range?
That is a well documented estimates of what the total shift takes. Remember this is from the paddle is pulled till the other gear is engaged and not the time of the shift itself which we know is zero lose in forward momentum.
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      07-29-2008, 12:37 AM   #18
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Quote:
Originally Posted by footie View Post
swamp, all of these system cut the ignition at the point of the shift, it's the only way for shift to be seamless, that was by design from the very start, that is why Larry Lock commented that DCT by design was too smooth and needed sportiness engineered into it. BMW knew full well that such a setup would not be accepted because it's most likely customers were the very people who loved the SMG system prior to it. They needed a way of injecting the same sportiness and that was done by altering the rev point of when the second clutch engages to create the surge. I said quite early on that the NO BENEFIT thing was a misunderstanding with what I was told and that yes there was an improvement but thought it wouldn't outweigh the negatives.

As for the data, I would love to run my eye over it.

Maybe your opinion of what SUBMISSION is different to mine,



That is a well documented estimates of what the total shift takes. Remember this is from the paddle is pulled till the other gear is engaged and not the time of the shift itself which we know is zero lose in forward momentum.
I have long since speculated that ignition cut is indeed used. But neither of us have any proof of this.

Secondly your speculation about how surge is obtained is both imprecise and has no evidence to support it either. What the hell does "altering the rev point of when the second clutch engages" really mean? The theory adopted by most including enigma who initially pointed it our clearly, myself and multiple magazine authors is that clutch and ignition phasing dump stored engine and flywheel angular momentum to the rear end.

Not many folks loved SMG, fact. Sure some praise the strong surge it offered but you are wrong in the need to "duplicate" SMG.

There was no misunderstanding about the benefits you initially claimed there were NONE, then you backed off saying it may offer some limited benefits. Now when you refer to it you still say there is none. You can't really have it both ways.

Hmmm... last but not least... please provide one piece of hard evidence about the shift time of any dual clutch system except the GT-R figure we have all heard of 200 ms. Clearly this spec is based on a time that either includes any delays from paddle pull to shift initiation or is the worst case shift time.
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      07-29-2008, 12:59 AM   #19
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why does everything in this forum have to be a debate over minute details? you both know that neither side is willing to cede their point...
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      07-29-2008, 02:21 AM   #20
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Quote:
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I have long since speculated that ignition cut is indeed used. But neither of us have any proof of this.
Whether you believe or disbelieve this to be true it's a fact, it's the only way you can achieve a shift in a few milliseconds without a extreme jolt.

Quote:
Originally Posted by swamp2 View Post
Secondly your speculation about how surge is obtained is both imprecise and has no evidence to support it either. What the hell does "altering the rev point of when the second clutch engages" really mean? The theory adopted by most including enigma who initially pointed it our clearly, myself and multiple magazine authors is that clutch and ignition phasing dump stored engine and flywheel angular momentum to the rear end.
This clutch, ignition and flywheel dumping stored energy is a poetic marketing way of saying that the ignition is dropping the revs to a higher point than would be required for a smooth swap of gears. If say the required rev point for a smooth shift to the next gear was 4000rpm but the system set this to 4500rpm you will get a surge because you have to remember you have the throttle planted.

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Not many folks loved SMG, fact. Sure some praise the strong surge it offered but you are wrong in the need to "duplicate" SMG.
Most liked the surge that the system created but disliked the extremeness of the jerk, what M-DCT does is improve the quality of the surge with none of the negatives. I don't know too many who now dislike the surge, including myself but only occasionally.

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There was no misunderstanding about the benefits you initially claimed there were NONE, then you backed off saying it may offer some limited benefits. Now when you refer to it you still say there is none. You can't really have it both ways.

Hmmm... last but not least... please provide one piece of hard evidence about the shift time of any dual clutch system except the GT-R figure we have all heard of 200 ms. Clearly this spec is based on a time that either includes any delays from paddle pull to shift initiation or is the worst case shift time.
swamp I haven't changed from saying it have benefits, I say and continue to say that the benefit compared to S3 maybe slight if all other things were equal like shift delay etc. Even BMW and Porsche both understand that it's benefit is sportiness and disengage it in corners as I said at the start and Bruce agreed on that point.

As for the 140~200ms, clearly you haven't read enough material on the subject, Nissan, Porsche, Audi, VW all state the same thing. The only one I haven't read the same on is BMW but I reckon it will be no different. But again I keep repeating the same thing, it is not the actual shift that they are all referring to as it is barely measurable (a few ms).
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      07-29-2008, 12:49 PM   #21
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Quote:
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This clutch, ignition and flywheel dumping stored energy is a poetic marketing way of saying that the ignition is dropping the revs to a higher point than would be required for a smooth swap of gears. If say the required rev point for a smooth shift to the next gear was 4000rpm but the system set this to 4500rpm you will get a surge because you have to remember you have the throttle planted.
Wrong, wrong, wrong. This is a descriptive process based on physics and the hypothesis can be rigorously tested and verified.

I actually fully believe the system is using the ignition but neither of us have any proof, period. I don't believe it is using any automated throttle control. Especially when you have it planted there is simply no time to manage the throttle. If you have it planted, shift at redline what is happening to the throttle in your opinion during the clutching. Please describe the exact sequence of events, opening and closing of both clutches, spark cut and "throttle control". The reason a car surges when you powershift is that the engine can spool a bit to higher rpm (if not at redline already!) during the clutching operation. This is not really an option with a DCT shift at redline.

Quote:
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As for the 140~200ms, clearly you haven't read enough material on the subject, Nissan, Porsche, Audi, VW all state the same thing. The only one I haven't read the same on is BMW but I reckon it will be no different. But again I keep repeating the same thing, it is not the actual shift that they are all referring to as it is barely measurable (a few ms).
Yeah, you are right, I haven't read anything about transmissions and DCTs Please just humor us all with your proof any any DCT transmission other than the GT-R shifting in 140-200 ms. As well we need to know if the figure includes clutching only or any potential delay after paddle.
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      07-29-2008, 01:29 PM   #22
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Quote:
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...Please just humor us all with your proof any any DCT transmission other than the GT-R shifting in 140-200 ms. As well we need to know if the figure includes clutching only or any potential delay after paddle.
Please just leave the rest of us out of this. It's an annoying habit of yours to assume others are in fabulous agreement with you.

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