BMW M3 Forum (E90 E92)

BMW Garage BMW Meets Register Search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read


Go Back   M3Post - BMW M3 Forum > E90/E92 M3 Technical Topics > Track / Autocross / Dragstrip / Driving Techniques
 
PYSPEED
Post Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
      07-27-2008, 10:42 AM   #45
Radiation Joe
Veni Vidi Vici
 
Radiation Joe's Avatar
 
Drives: '11 JB/BBe-6sp-e90
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: Macungie PA

Posts: 2,749
iTrader: (0)

Garage List
2011 e90 M3-Sold  [4.25]
2003 RS6 - Sold  [0.00]
2009 e90 M3 - Gone  [0.00]
2003 M3 SOLD  [0.00]
old 2002  [5.00]
Quote:
Originally Posted by sayemthree View Post
I tracked a 2001 M3 for over 7 years NOTHING ever broke at the track. NOTHING ! EVER!
I think he's saying you're slow.

I must be slow, too, since nothing has ever broken on my e46 due to track work. That makes most of the GT3s and Z-06s slow too, since I'm competitive with them.
Radiation Joe is offline   United_States
0
Reply With Quote
      07-27-2008, 10:58 AM   #46
stevespools
Private
 
Drives: 95 M3, 08 E92M3
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: Philly area

Posts: 88
iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by cchan View Post
Sort of - more like time vs. money. On time, over just 2 days M school certainly comes out ahead, but on dollars, less expensive but many more CCA events will come out ahead, much ahead in my opinion.

Not questioning whatsoever about the quality of M school and experience. It's just that M school is expensive. I'm not saying don't go to M school, I'm just saying that as an educational value there are alternatives to consider.

For Steve, I think you're on the right track, doing some other events first to get the basics. As others have said, the learning curve is steep, so if you have some basics first I think you'll maximize the value of M school as opposed to starting directly with M school. If you don't even know how to "walk" yet, better to hold off on paying for the expensive "running coach" until after you learn to walk first.
I see M School more like an extreme adventure, such as sky diving; an intense experience you may or may not repeat. You can drive a Prius and go to M School. BMWCCA is actually learning to drive my car, which as you`ve said, is one of the reasons I bought it
stevespools is offline  
0
Reply With Quote
      07-27-2008, 04:12 PM   #47
T Bone
Brigadier General
 
T Bone's Avatar
 
Drives: 2008 335xi Coupe
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: The land where we kill baby seals

Posts: 4,021
iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by stevespools View Post
I see M School more like an extreme adventure, such as sky diving

Except you learn how to drive better. Sky Diving school, Sir Isaac Newton still owns your ass.
__________________
"Aerodynamics are for people who cannot build engines"......Enzo Ferrari
T Bone is offline  
0
Reply With Quote
      07-27-2008, 04:45 PM   #48
stevespools
Private
 
Drives: 95 M3, 08 E92M3
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: Philly area

Posts: 88
iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by T Bone View Post
Except you learn how to drive better. Sky Diving school, Sir Isaac Newton still owns your ass.
last time I checked Newton still owns your ass on the ground, unless you have special powers
stevespools is offline  
0
Reply With Quote
      07-27-2008, 04:55 PM   #49
T Bone
Brigadier General
 
T Bone's Avatar
 
Drives: 2008 335xi Coupe
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: The land where we kill baby seals

Posts: 4,021
iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by stevespools View Post
last time I checked Newton still owns your ass on the ground, unless you have special powers

No, I only submit to the rules of quantum (or ///M) mechanics
__________________
"Aerodynamics are for people who cannot build engines"......Enzo Ferrari
T Bone is offline  
0
Reply With Quote
      07-27-2008, 06:31 PM   #50
stevespools
Private
 
Drives: 95 M3, 08 E92M3
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: Philly area

Posts: 88
iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by T Bone View Post
No, I only submit to the rules of quantum (or ///M) mechanics
ah, so you`re invoking Einstein now instead of Newton. If you can reach the speed of light you will have no mass, hence no problems in the corners Einstein left Newton in the dust 100 years ago (must have gone to M School)
stevespools is offline  
0
Reply With Quote
      08-06-2008, 03:32 AM   #51
sayemthree
Brigadier General
 
sayemthree's Avatar
 
Drives: bmw
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: usa

Posts: 4,845
iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Radiation Joe View Post
I think he's saying you're slow.

I must be slow, too, since nothing has ever broken on my e46 due to track work. That makes most of the GT3s and Z-06s slow too, since I'm competitive with them.

word!

so if we are sloe and dont break things he must break lots of things and that makes him Fast! I guess I'll try to break more things.
sayemthree is offline  
0
Reply With Quote
      08-06-2008, 07:59 AM   #52
ase2dais
//Mdicted
 
ase2dais's Avatar
 
Drives: a Cop Magnet
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: 495 Ring

Posts: 9,874
iTrader: (17)

Garage List
Quote:
Originally Posted by enigma View Post
I would dispute this from experience.

Some of them are great, other, not so much...
+1

I trust more the PC intructors than BMWCCAs
ase2dais is offline   United_States
0
Reply With Quote
      08-06-2008, 08:41 AM   #53
SS32
Major
 
SS32's Avatar
 
Drives: 2008 M3
Join Date: May 2007
Location: Raleigh, NC

Posts: 1,431
iTrader: (0)

Just wondering why you would pay ~$3500 for a two day instruction when you can go to a two day HPDE for ~$350. Granted, you're using your car, but tires and brake pads don't make up the $3150 difference
SS32 is offline  
0
Reply With Quote
      08-06-2008, 09:22 AM   #54
T Bone
Brigadier General
 
T Bone's Avatar
 
Drives: 2008 335xi Coupe
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: The land where we kill baby seals

Posts: 4,021
iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by cowmoo32 View Post
Just wondering why you would pay ~$3500 for a two day instruction when you can go to a two day HPDE for ~$350. Granted, you're using your car, but tires and brake pads don't make up the $3150 difference

The instruction, implied track insurance, the catering, the hotel, the helmet, the swag, the ability to drive all the current ///M cars.
__________________
"Aerodynamics are for people who cannot build engines"......Enzo Ferrari
T Bone is offline  
0
Reply With Quote
      08-06-2008, 09:43 AM   #55
valeram
Major
 
Drives: E92 M3 DCT
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: Dublin, OH

Posts: 1,344
iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by cowmoo32 View Post
Just wondering why you would pay ~$3500 for a two day instruction when you can go to a two day HPDE for ~$350. Granted, you're using your car, but tires and brake pads don't make up the $3150 difference
One word, INSURANCE. You can crush their car(s) plus the prestige of course.
valeram is offline  
0
Reply With Quote
      08-06-2008, 11:27 AM   #56
enigma
Captain
 
Drives: E92 M3 and Elise
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: Land of the Microchip

Posts: 689
iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by sayemthree View Post
word!

so if we are sloe and dont break things he must break lots of things and that makes him Fast! I guess I'll try to break more things.
Quote:
Originally Posted by sayemthree View Post
this was my first time tracking the e92 so I ran with MDM on and was pretty conservative. MDM starting kicking in towards the end of the day as I pushed more
MDM kicks in very, very early if you are at all driving fast. So you must be really taking it easy if its not kicking in all the time. That is without a doubt much easier on the car.

Very few things broke on my e46. SES light came on at the track, severe brake issues, broken rear sway bar mount. Bent some aftermarket wheels curb hopping.

What I am saying is every fast driver I know has had some issues at the track, not necessarly major, but something.
__________________
Manual gearboxes, the rotary dial of cars.
enigma is offline  
0
Reply With Quote
      08-06-2008, 11:59 AM   #57
Radiation Joe
Veni Vidi Vici
 
Radiation Joe's Avatar
 
Drives: '11 JB/BBe-6sp-e90
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: Macungie PA

Posts: 2,749
iTrader: (0)

Garage List
2011 e90 M3-Sold  [4.25]
2003 RS6 - Sold  [0.00]
2009 e90 M3 - Gone  [0.00]
2003 M3 SOLD  [0.00]
old 2002  [5.00]
Quote:
Originally Posted by enigma View Post
MDM kicks in very, very early if you are at all driving fast. So you must be really taking it easy if its not kicking in all the time. That is without a doubt much easier on the car.

Very few things broke on my e46. SES light came on at the track, severe brake issues, broken rear sway bar mount. Bent some aftermarket wheels curb hopping.

What I am saying is every fast driver I know has had some issues at the track, not necessarly major, but something.
I politely disagree.
I use the DSC in my e46 to tell me when I'm not being smooth. I always leave it on. I've only had one corner on one track that the DSC would not allow a fast exit (hitting apex curb at T14 Thunderhill); so I turned it off there. Everyplace else it has kicked in has been because I was doing something wrong or made a mistake. I'm going to assume (from all I've heard) that MDM is less intrusive. So if it's kicking in, you're going slower than you could. Remember, smooth is fast.

I've never broken anything on the e46 during track days. I've driven hard enough to bottom out the whole suspension (w/ 500# springs) coming through 8a at Laguna almost every lap, driven off the ends of track-out rumple strips at practically every track I've been to, and jumped the bus stop curbs at WG many times. People who break their cars at the track are unlucky or untalented in my humble opinion. It has nothing to do with going fast.
__________________

Dinan compliment of stuff plus PF rotors and RG63s. Enough for now.
Why, yes. I am an abrasive bastard.
Radiation Joe is offline   United_States
0
Reply With Quote
      08-06-2008, 12:11 PM   #58
enigma
Captain
 
Drives: E92 M3 and Elise
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: Land of the Microchip

Posts: 689
iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Radiation Joe View Post
I politely disagree.
I use the DSC in my e46 to tell me when I'm not being smooth. I always leave it on. I've only had one corner on one track that the DSC would not allow a fast exit (hitting apex curb at T14 Thunderhill); so I turned it off there. Everyplace else it has kicked in has been because I was doing something wrong or made a mistake. I'm going to assume (from all I've heard) that MDM is less intrusive. So if it's kicking in, you're going slower than you could. Remember, smooth is fast.
What lap times were you turning? The timer doesn't lie. I know exactly zero drivers, competitive at the nation level, that would leave DCS on.
__________________
Manual gearboxes, the rotary dial of cars.
enigma is offline  
0
Reply With Quote
      08-06-2008, 01:22 PM   #59
Radiation Joe
Veni Vidi Vici
 
Radiation Joe's Avatar
 
Drives: '11 JB/BBe-6sp-e90
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: Macungie PA

Posts: 2,749
iTrader: (0)

Garage List
2011 e90 M3-Sold  [4.25]
2003 RS6 - Sold  [0.00]
2009 e90 M3 - Gone  [0.00]
2003 M3 SOLD  [0.00]
old 2002  [5.00]
Quote:
Originally Posted by enigma View Post
What lap times were you turning? The timer doesn't lie. I know exactly zero drivers, competitive at the nation level, that would leave DCS on.
I'm talking lapping days, not competition. The last thing anyone in a race is going to do is leave something on that cuts the power when its not expected. The fact that zero competition drivers would keep DSC on is irrelevent. It is a very good tool on track to help you get smooth.

Our point is that breaking your car is not a function of how fast you drive. It's a fuction of how bad you drive. Within reason, of course. No car is 100% reliable.

Asuming I'm slow because I use DSC is flawed logic. The last time I was timed was at Sears Point in an old ITB 2002 in which I was having suspension set-up problems. I had the car builder, who was the track record holder, put in a few laps to help me dial it in. He couldn't improve on my time. These days, I don't need a timer to know if I'm on my game or not. The number of theoretically faster cars/drivers that I run down in a session tells me that.
__________________

Dinan compliment of stuff plus PF rotors and RG63s. Enough for now.
Why, yes. I am an abrasive bastard.
Radiation Joe is offline   United_States
0
Reply With Quote
      08-06-2008, 01:48 PM   #60
enigma
Captain
 
Drives: E92 M3 and Elise
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: Land of the Microchip

Posts: 689
iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Radiation Joe View Post
I'm talking lapping days, not competition. The last thing anyone in a race is going to do is leave something on that cuts the power when its not expected. The fact that zero competition drivers would keep DSC on is irrelevent. It is a very good tool on track to help you get smooth.

Our point is that breaking your car is not a function of how fast you drive. It's a fuction of how bad you drive. Within reason, of course. No car is 100% reliable.
I never said you have to break things to go fast, only that if you go fast things will eventually break.

Funny how you keep talking about how to drive fast but won't answer the question of how fast you were.

You can trigger MDM while driving very smoothly
__________________
Manual gearboxes, the rotary dial of cars.
enigma is offline  
0
Reply With Quote
      08-06-2008, 02:17 PM   #61
Radiation Joe
Veni Vidi Vici
 
Radiation Joe's Avatar
 
Drives: '11 JB/BBe-6sp-e90
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: Macungie PA

Posts: 2,749
iTrader: (0)

Garage List
2011 e90 M3-Sold  [4.25]
2003 RS6 - Sold  [0.00]
2009 e90 M3 - Gone  [0.00]
2003 M3 SOLD  [0.00]
old 2002  [5.00]
Quote:
Originally Posted by enigma View Post
I never said you have to break things to go fast, only that if you go fast things will eventually break.

Funny how you keep talking about how to drive fast but won't answer the question of how fast you were.

You can trigger MDM while driving very smoothly
You're right.
I'm just a poser.
Forget everything I said.
I just made it all up.
You caught me. Damn!
__________________

Dinan compliment of stuff plus PF rotors and RG63s. Enough for now.
Why, yes. I am an abrasive bastard.
Radiation Joe is offline   United_States
0
Reply With Quote
      08-06-2008, 02:56 PM   #62
enigma
Captain
 
Drives: E92 M3 and Elise
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: Land of the Microchip

Posts: 689
iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Radiation Joe View Post
You're right.
I'm just a poser.
Forget everything I said.
I just made it all up.
You caught me. Damn!
Why is it offensive to ask someone giving you advice on a subject for their qualifications on the subject?
__________________
Manual gearboxes, the rotary dial of cars.
enigma is offline  
0
Reply With Quote
      08-06-2008, 03:30 PM   #63
Radiation Joe
Veni Vidi Vici
 
Radiation Joe's Avatar
 
Drives: '11 JB/BBe-6sp-e90
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: Macungie PA

Posts: 2,749
iTrader: (0)

Garage List
2011 e90 M3-Sold  [4.25]
2003 RS6 - Sold  [0.00]
2009 e90 M3 - Gone  [0.00]
2003 M3 SOLD  [0.00]
old 2002  [5.00]
Quote:
Originally Posted by enigma View Post
Why is it offensive to ask someone giving you advice on a subject for their qualifications on the subject?
Because it's not particularly relevant. What if I turned a 1:44 at Laguna? That's fast for a production based car, but not for a formula car. My times have little to do with the validity of my argument, mainly that fast guys don't break their cars any more than slow guys.

The last time I was timed was back in 2000 in a club race at Thunderhill. I was driving an ITB 2002 at over 3 minutes. At that time I was turning comparable times with the record holder at SPIR in the same car. None the less, I have little timed miles on track. And since it was so long ago, it means little, now.

And another thing, if you are located in Silicon Valley, then your local tracks are the ones I am most familiar with. For all this harping you've made about my lap times, I would assume you have a racing resume that trumps any comments I may have made previously? We'll probably see each other at a lapping day or in a club race in the future (SCCA or BMWCCA). Maybe you can show me the way around the track.
__________________

Dinan compliment of stuff plus PF rotors and RG63s. Enough for now.
Why, yes. I am an abrasive bastard.
Radiation Joe is offline   United_States
0
Reply With Quote
      08-06-2008, 03:40 PM   #64
enigma
Captain
 
Drives: E92 M3 and Elise
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: Land of the Microchip

Posts: 689
iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Radiation Joe View Post
Because it's not particularly relevant. What if I turned a 1:44 at Laguna? That's fast for a production based car, but not for a formula car. My times have little to do with the validity of my argument, mainly that fast guys don't break their cars any more than slow guys.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Radiation Joe View Post
I politely disagree.
I use the DSC in my e46 to tell me when I'm not being smooth. I always leave it on. I've only had one corner on one track that the DSC would not allow a fast exit (hitting apex curb at T14 Thunderhill); so I turned it off there. Everyplace else it has kicked in has been because I was doing something wrong or made a mistake. I'm going to assume (from all I've heard) that MDM is less intrusive. So if it's kicking in, you're going slower than you could. Remember, smooth is fast.
You are making a claim that YOU can drive a lap at full speed without the DSC or MDM kicking in. I am disputing that claim. Now if you had managed to turn a good lap time in your E46 with DSC on, then your argument is supported by evidence. If you have no such lap, the you are speculating based on what other have said.

Basically lots of people have opinions on how to go fast. Before I listen I just want to know their opinion is supported by real experience. For exampe if you got advice on a diet plan you would listen to the person that lost 150lbs and was now healty over the one that still weighed 350lbs.
__________________
Manual gearboxes, the rotary dial of cars.
enigma is offline  
0
Reply With Quote
      08-06-2008, 04:02 PM   #65
Radiation Joe
Veni Vidi Vici
 
Radiation Joe's Avatar
 
Drives: '11 JB/BBe-6sp-e90
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: Macungie PA

Posts: 2,749
iTrader: (0)

Garage List
2011 e90 M3-Sold  [4.25]
2003 RS6 - Sold  [0.00]
2009 e90 M3 - Gone  [0.00]
2003 M3 SOLD  [0.00]
old 2002  [5.00]
Quote:
Originally Posted by enigma View Post
You are making a claim that YOU can drive a lap at full speed without the DSC or MDM kicking in. I am disputing that claim. Now if you had managed to turn a good lap time in your E46 with DSC on, then your argument is supported by evidence. If you have no such lap, the you are speculating based on what other have said. ...
I haven't had time to race in many years. I don't have a recorded time for my e46 at Laguna because we don't time DEs. All I have is my subjective evidence from the last two club outings at Laguna with the ACNA and BMWCCA. Both cases I ran in the advanced group and passed GT3s and Z-06s driven by other "advanced" drivers. If that's not credible enough for you, I'm sorry.

At this point I tire of your argument. Put up or shut up. What are your qualifications?

Respectfully,
Joe-the slow turd in pimpmobile
__________________

Dinan compliment of stuff plus PF rotors and RG63s. Enough for now.
Why, yes. I am an abrasive bastard.
Radiation Joe is offline   United_States
0
Reply With Quote
      08-06-2008, 04:30 PM   #66
enigma
Captain
 
Drives: E92 M3 and Elise
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: Land of the Microchip

Posts: 689
iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Radiation Joe View Post
At this point I tire of your argument. Put up or shut up. What are your qualifications?

Respectfully,
Joe-the slow turd in pimpmobile
Laguna 1:42
http://video.google.com/videoplay?do...26878137&hl=en

THill 2:04
http://video.google.com/videoplay?do...19264416&hl=en

I've since gone faster at THill but didn't have the camera at the time.

Point is I hear a lot of people talk about "smooth is fast" and then never go out and back it up. I always laughed when those same people would tell me that Fernando Alonso drove the wrong way and would be faster if he was "smoother".
__________________
Manual gearboxes, the rotary dial of cars.
enigma is offline  
0
Reply With Quote
Post Reply

Bookmarks

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 06:40 PM.




m3post
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.7.0
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
1Addicts.com, BIMMERPOST.com, E90Post.com, F30Post.com, M3Post.com, ZPost.com, 5Post.com, 6Post.com, 7Post.com, XBimmers.com logo and trademark are properties of BIMMERPOST