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      07-23-2008, 05:10 AM   #1
mixja
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Road and Track - Four Track Test

See http://www.roadandtrack.com/article....rticle_id=6939

http://www.germancarzone.com/interna...-free-all.html has a good round up...

M3 finishes near the back of the pack, but the competition is pretty good...

Surprised the DBS managed to keep it at bay...
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      07-23-2008, 05:17 AM   #2
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thanks for the link, about to read it now!
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      07-23-2008, 05:29 AM   #3
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And tell me, what did you expect from the M3?

It's closer in character to the EVO than any of the others and with the exception of the EVO and Lotus it was the next least powerful. Clearly some people are excepting great things out of this car purely because it carries an M badge.
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      07-23-2008, 06:19 AM   #4
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Quote:
Originally Posted by footie View Post
And tell me, what did you expect from the M3?

It's closer in character to the EVO than any of the others and with the exception of the EVO and Lotus it was the next least powerful. Clearly some people are excepting great things out of this car purely because it carries an M badge.
I'd expect it to run a bit closer to the R8, similar power/weight - shows how good a job Audi have done with the R8...

I think there is a general expectation that the M3 can punch quite high above its weight, but clearly not in this comparison...
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      07-23-2008, 08:40 AM   #5
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The DBS results are surprising (I would have guessed that even the EVO would have trounced it) but that is only because I am used to seeing the performance (on the track) of prior Astons like the Vantage.... Other than that, if someone sat me down and had me pick the finishing order I would have put M3 third from last in that group without even doing a performance test. No surprise there....

The Lambo finishing first is a huge surprise and quite an accomplishment for a company with zero real racing background competing next to auto makers like Porsche! Good for Lambo....

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      07-23-2008, 11:00 AM   #6
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mixja View Post
I'd expect it to run a bit closer to the R8, similar power/weight - shows how good a job Audi have done with the R8...

I think there is a general expectation that the M3 can punch quite high above its weight, but clearly not in this comparison...
There is lots of reasons for the R8 to be quicker, it's COG will be a lot lower, it's got better weight distribution, it's got an awd system which which only shifts power forward when really needed...etc, etc. In fact I reckon if the R8 had more power akin to the GTR (think 530hp) then it would have been fighting it out for top honours.

The M3 is what it is, it's a high performance saloon/coupe with a mighty engine and a trick diff and though it's top dog in it's respective sector (until the GTR arrived) it's no substitute for a properly designed and built sportscar.
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      07-23-2008, 12:06 PM   #7
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Nice test. Not surprising at all. The only surprises to me were:

-DBS > M3... but then again with 510 hp not too surprising
-M3 and R8 gap. On some tracks the R8 has shown to best the M3 but in others it has been quite close.
-1st place
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      07-23-2008, 12:20 PM   #8
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interesting about the first comment about turning the power button off because it was "way too responsive."
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      07-23-2008, 12:48 PM   #9
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Good test! The R10 is clearly going to be a beast - but refined - when it comes. Impressive achievement by Audi given the R8's 420 hp - clearly Porsche has a legit domestic challenger (c'mon BMW, where's yours?)

The Lambo is a big surprise: they used to be more unwieldy - no more. Be nice if they'd also had access to a 430 Scuderia.
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      07-23-2008, 12:48 PM   #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by swamp2 View Post
Nice test. Not surprising at all. The only surprises to me were:

-DBS > M3... but then again with 510 hp not too surprising
-M3 and R8 gap. On some tracks the R8 has shown to best the M3 but in others it has been quite close.
-1st place
Can you list the tracks where the M3 and R8 are close, apart of the ring and please list lap times. Because I am struggling to find anything other than the ring where they are close.

Sure in acceleration and that is to be expected given the PTW of each, but on the track the R8 seems to handle and brake better plus find more traction to boot.
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      07-23-2008, 01:03 PM   #11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by footie View Post

Sure in acceleration and that is to be expected given the PTW of each, but on the track the R8 seems to handle and brake better plus find more traction to boot.
I'd want to get a decent performance gap given that the R8 can sell for us much as $180k in the U.S.

http://www.cars.com/go/search/search...0&aff=national
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Last edited by Voltigeur; 07-23-2008 at 03:34 PM.
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      07-23-2008, 03:02 PM   #12
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Too bad about the Evo X. I really like the car but it is softer and slower than the old one. I hope Mitsubishi makes some improvements.

Viper ACR....... WHAT an amazing machine. That is a true beast and the only car I (realistically) aspire to own in that group.

Thanks for posting the article.
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      07-23-2008, 03:34 PM   #13
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mixja View Post
Surprised the DBS managed to keep it at bay...


well I could buy an M3, a Z06 AND and AUdi R8 for the price of the DBS!!!!!!!!!!!


I guess thats what 100 more HP and 295 rear tires buys you!
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      07-24-2008, 01:25 AM   #14
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Quote:
Originally Posted by footie View Post
Can you list the tracks where the M3 and R8 are close, apart of the ring and please list lap times. Because I am struggling to find anything other than the ring where they are close.

Sure in acceleration and that is to be expected given the PTW of each, but on the track the R8 seems to handle and brake better plus find more traction to boot.
M3/R8
Nurburgring: 8:05/8:04
Oschersleben: 1:47.2/1:47.6
Autozeitung test track: 1:40.1/1:39.8
Inta: 1:12.4/1:11.1

Look there is no doubt that the R8 is a stellar handling vehicle, of course only from what I have read. I have not driven one. On quite a few tracks it does best the M3 by a decent margin. However, I think they are a lot closer than you feel they are in many circumstances. They have shown identical .98g skidpad numbers as well.
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      07-24-2008, 01:45 AM   #15
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That is some serious company they put the M3 with, that is a huge complement.

But the GT-R does 7:29 around the ring. Why didn't it win? (sarcasm)

Maybe if they used a chipped 335i it would have done better. (also sarcasm)
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      07-24-2008, 01:59 AM   #16
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Maybe if they used a chipped 335i it would have done better. (also sarcasm)
HAhahahahahaaaa!!!!


that would not be fair!
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      07-24-2008, 06:08 AM   #17
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Quote:
Originally Posted by swamp2 View Post
M3/R8
Nurburgring: 8:05/8:04
Oschersleben: 1:47.2/1:47.6
Autozeitung test track: 1:40.1/1:39.8
Inta: 1:12.4/1:11.1

Look there is no doubt that the R8 is a stellar handling vehicle, of course only from what I have read. I have not driven one. On quite a few tracks it does best the M3 by a decent margin. However, I think they are a lot closer than you feel they are in many circumstances. They have shown identical .98g skidpad numbers as well.
Thanks for that info swamp,

I wasn't so much doubting you but it was more a case that I hadn't seen any occasion where the two were that close apart from the ring, clearly I was wrong.

I know of all the UK tests the R8 was well ahead, maybe these tests were conducted on more technical tracks. Though again this is pure speculation on my part.

P.S.
The R8 is something special to drive, not to take anything away from the M3 but you do feel you are driving something that is worth more, and more importantly makes you feel that bit more special as well, which after all is part of the reason for buying these type of cars.

If I have the extra cash to afford it instead then I have to say I would be driving the R8 but I don't and so will be very happy with my M3, thank-you very much.
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      07-24-2008, 10:48 AM   #18
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Quote:
Originally Posted by footie View Post
The R8 is something special to drive, not to take anything away from the M3 but you do feel you are driving something that is worth more, and more importantly makes you feel that bit more special as well, which after all is part of the reason for buying these type of cars.
It better be special for the ridiculous price tag.

Personally even if was only $10k more I would still choose the car I did.
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      07-24-2008, 01:34 PM   #19
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mixja View Post
See http://www.roadandtrack.com/article....rticle_id=6939

http://www.germancarzone.com/interna...-free-all.html has a good round up...

M3 finishes near the back of the pack, but the competition is pretty good...

Surprised the DBS managed to keep it at bay...
Another really interesting test from R & T. It's amazing to me how close the top three finishers were in the overall scoring, and presumably the GT2 would've gotten right into the middle of that if they had a chassis guy handy to tune the suspension the way the Dodge guys did.

The only thing I would've liked to see would be quarter mile times and speeds for all the contenders. I realize the test wasn't about that, but it would help "normalize" the cars in terms of their performance. After all, we've seen times all over the map for the GT-R (from Z06 to M3 range), and although this wasn't a particularly quick one (see Millen's comments), what if it was a slow one?

Surprisingly (to me), the Audi pretty much destroys the M3, and even shows up better than the Z06. On paper, you'd expect the R8 and M3 to be pretty close, so hat's off to the Audi guys. Apparently footie's reverence is well placed. On the other hand, what if their M3 was as doggy as the last one these guys tested (13.0 @ 111)?

It's even clearer now why so many Z06 owners swap out those runflats in favor of better sneakers plus the obligatory fix-a-flat kit.

Clearly the Lambo guys sweated this "upgrade to an upgraded" Gallardo. The additional power, combined with less weight (and perhaps some handling tweaks) have turned an extremely fast car (7:46 at the 'Ring in Horst's hands) into a real killer. Along with the Viper, it'd be very interesting to see what the 'Ring lap times could be in the hands of a real assassin.

Bruce

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      07-24-2008, 02:11 PM   #20
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I agree that the M3 is the underpowerd acr compared to the other big dogs in the group. Nonetheless, I though i would have been a little better.

Part of me feels that there is some bias in these tests based on the politics behind the scenes.

On another note, I often wonder if the M and other cars that have similar configuration options are being compared apple to apples. I think it takes time to learn what each edc mode etc, will do to the cars performance. I think that if the M engineers where their to advise on the best setting for each event, the the M Might have been faster. The same applies to the other cars though
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      07-25-2008, 02:19 AM   #21
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I really respect times from a test like this. Rather than the "not-so-reliable" ring times.
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      07-25-2008, 04:54 AM   #22
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Bruce,

The ring is unlike any other track and definitely share nothing with a normal race track, it has cambers, bumps and dips all in one corner never mind over an entire lap. This is why so many manufacturers do the basics of suspension setup here and fine tune the ride quality.

It doesn't always mean a car will perform great on the ring because of time it may have done else where, the Viper might use brute power and ultimate grip to muscle a decent lap time but the driver (if independent) might say the thing was a wild animal. I always take ring times as a rough guage of a cars ability and then see if the thing is enjoyable to drive.
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