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      07-29-2008, 10:27 PM   #23
ganeil
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Originally Posted by ATG View Post
I will give the U.S. credit for Japan, but not any major role in defeating Germany. The U.S. conveniently came to the table too late.
Compared to who? The French? The Brits? I am sure you mean the Soviets but we entered only 6 months after them.
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      07-29-2008, 10:36 PM   #24
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Originally Posted by Bobby_Light View Post
You are simply wrong. Congressional record from 2002.
Now a few vials and samples from the CDC transferred in 1985 to the Iraqi equivalent entity shows we were in bed with Saddam? Honestly you can't be serious.

Take a look at the equipment in the Iraqi military under Saddam, take a look at who built and designed the reactor complex at Osirak, who provided military advisers to Iraq and tell me we were in bed with him.

Get a grip.
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      07-30-2008, 12:01 AM   #25
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Originally Posted by ganeil View Post
Now a few vials and samples from the CDC transferred in 1985 to the Iraqi equivalent entity shows we were in bed with Saddam? Honestly you can't be serious.

Take a look at the equipment in the Iraqi military under Saddam, take a look at who built and designed the reactor complex at Osirak, who provided military advisers to Iraq and tell me we were in bed with him.

Get a grip.
The French helped build a reactor facility in Iraq. The US provided intelligence, technology, and the means needed to make WMDs. We exported anthrax to Iraq; we also provided funding (over a $1 billion) and arms.

This is a LA Times article written in 1992 that supports my argument.

BUSH SECRET EFFORT HELPED IRAQ BUILD ITS WAR MACHINE
http://www.casi.org.uk/discuss/2000/msg00776.html

We were in bed with Saddam for years. See "Iraq-gate." Get a grip.
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      07-30-2008, 06:51 AM   #26
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Originally Posted by Bobby_Light View Post
The French helped build a reactor facility in Iraq. The US provided intelligence, technology, and the means needed to make WMDs. We exported anthrax to Iraq; we also provided funding (over a $1 billion) and arms.

This is a LA Times article written in 1992 that supports my argument.

BUSH SECRET EFFORT HELPED IRAQ BUILD ITS WAR MACHINE
http://www.casi.org.uk/discuss/2000/msg00776.html

We were in bed with Saddam for years. See "Iraq-gate." Get a grip.
We provided them aid to buy food. We extended them credit to buy American grain and other food stuffs. Saddam had a WMD capability without any American support. He used WMD before the US had any relations with him. We provided him no weapons as the article you linked to shows. There were some proposals to trade for Soviet weapons we needed examples of but they were never followed through on.

Are you aware that anthrax and botulism are naturally occurring pathogens? The CDC provided the Iraqis samples of research quality anthrax, not weaponized anthrax.

The Iraqi army was equipped with Soviet equipment and advised by Soviets. Its air force flew Soviet and French aircraft. It had virtually no US made weapons and those that it did have it got through third parties.

It was a Soviet client state.
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      07-30-2008, 08:27 AM   #27
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Originally Posted by dr325i View Post
How many UN rules did we ignore in the last 50 years.
How many countries did we invade?

All that you put above is crap compared to our "debacles"
You see, this is exactly why I'm hesitant to get involved in political threads. I post facts and I get the above response.

Another intellectually-stimulating post. Bravo! Posts like that undermine your position severely.

Care to debate the issue on a point-by-point basis and cite your sources? Show me where I'm wrong. I've cited three separate sources that prove that the Gulf War was never indeed over; Iraq violated the terms of the cease-fire, period. It was their actions that led to the UN's decision to go after him in the first place. How you can dismiss that as crap is beyond me. You obviously put a lot of thought and research into that position.

I'd be very interested to know exactly how many UN rules we've ignored in the last 50 years. I guarantee that, unlike Iraq, we didn't give the world the finger on 17 UN resolutions that were brought about as the result of our invasion of a sovereign country. I'd like to know how many countries we have invaded unilaterally and without provocation in the past 50 years as well. Please show your work as I did.

Honestly, sir, if your posts are an insight as to the mindset of a fervent Obama supporter, I weep for the future. The sad part is that your vote counts just as much as mine, so our votes will likely cancel one another out.

I am trying to figure out why you and others like you (and the Democratic party as of late) have such a complex of self-loathing, as evidenced by any number of your posts. Success and trying to see the good in ourselves is now apparently a bad thing in your eyes. Based on that, I'd guess that you probably also think that every kid should get a ribbon or trophy just for participating, because having a winner is detrimental to the ones that don't win - not unlike how you resent the US for being successful as that ends up making other countries feel inferior. Personally, I think this guy is on the mark when it comes to those of your ilk and is on topic when it comes to your post (I have put some sections in bold for emphasis):

http://factsnotfantasy.blogspot.com/...-loathing.html

Quote:
American Self-Loathing

By Alan Caruba

If there is one trend I see in ascendancy in America it is a tremendous amount of self-loathing that is expressed by all manner of people about America. It is different from the typical criticism that is endemic to a society obsessed with self-improvement. The tone of the loathing is a belief that America is inherently bad.

What was bad about removing from power a pathological dictator named Saddam Hussein? What was bad in trying to bring some understanding and implementation of modern society, human rights, and a democratic form of government to a place littered with the mass graves of Iraqis? What was bad about removing from power a man who had waged war for eight years against Iran and who had invaded Kuwait? Is not a more peaceful Middle East to be preferred over one in the thrall of Saddam’s ambitions and greed?

What Iraq represents to me is America’s courage. When other nations look the other way, surrender to tyranny, substitute rhetoric for action, America can and will take up the burden of deterring men doing bad things that ultimately can harm the general welfare of the world.

My parent’s generation, fresh from a Depression, was not cowed by the attack on Pearl Harbor and took up arms against both the Japanese Empire and the Nazi and fascist regimes in Europe. Today, I actually hear some people say that America “deserved” to be attacked on 9/11. That is appalling. And absurd.

Lost in the midst of our concern over the rise of militant Islam is the fact that, having brought the Soviet Union to its knees after some four decades or more of resolutely resisting its efforts to expand Communism and its hegemony worldwide, Americans are too distracted to see its rise in South America and, worse, here at home where all kinds of Communist programs such as universal healthcare are proposed, the attacks on private property are unending, and an endless variety of laws to intrude into and control all aspects of our lives.

Major reasons America came into being was the concept of individual liberty, the essential right of private property, and freedom from taxes without representation. These were radical ideas at a time when monarchy ruled in most places of the world.

This tendency to blame America for the world’s ill is bad for our national soul and wrong beyond description. It plays to people’s worst instinct, the desire to tear down that which is good and cast blame on everyone but themselves. America still does most things astonishingly well and much better than in other nations.

What we have been permitting since the end of World War II is the growth of the federal government and its increased control of too many aspects of our lives. Big government isn’t the answer. It’s the problem.
I hope that hits close to home. Perhaps, you should take a moment to reflect upon that.

For the record, I am a registered Democrat and my views typically lean toward Libertarian. What bothers me is that though I am middle-of-the-road when it comes to my views, both candidates are to the left of me - one of them significantly. I'd rather not vote for either of them; however, I'm only really left with the choice of voting for the one that most closely reflects my values. That, in my opinion, is a sad commentary on the state of politics in this country.
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      07-30-2008, 09:50 AM   #28
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Originally Posted by Icedog_16 View Post
You see, this is exactly why I'm hesitant to get involved in political threads. I post facts and I get the above response.
I warned you you were wasting your time.

He has been shown the facts repeatedly but his advanced case of Bush Derangement Syndrome renders him incapable of acknowledging them.

There are only three nations in the history of the UN that have violated Article VII Security Council Resolutions; North Korea, Iraq, and Iran.
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      07-30-2008, 10:58 AM   #29
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Originally Posted by Icedog_16 View Post
You see, this is exactly why I'm hesitant to get involved in political threads. I post facts and I get the above response.

Another intellectually-stimulating post. Bravo! Posts like that undermine your position severely.

Care to debate the issue on a point-by-point basis and cite your sources? Show me where I'm wrong. I've cited three separate sources that prove that the Gulf War was never indeed over; Iraq violated the terms of the cease-fire, period. It was their actions that led to the UN's decision to go after him in the first place. How you can dismiss that as crap is beyond me. You obviously put a lot of thought and research into that position.

I'd be very interested to know exactly how many UN rules we've ignored in the last 50 years. I guarantee that, unlike Iraq, we didn't give the world the finger on 17 UN resolutions that were brought about as the result of our invasion of a sovereign country. I'd like to know how many countries we have invaded unilaterally and without provocation in the past 50 years as well. Please show your work as I did.

Honestly, sir, if your posts are an insight as to the mindset of a fervent Obama supporter, I weep for the future. The sad part is that your vote counts just as much as mine, so our votes will likely cancel one another out.

I am trying to figure out why you and others like you (and the Democratic party as of late) have such a complex of self-loathing, as evidenced by any number of your posts. Success and trying to see the good in ourselves is now apparently a bad thing in your eyes. Based on that, I'd guess that you probably also think that every kid should get a ribbon or trophy just for participating, because having a winner is detrimental to the ones that don't win - not unlike how you resent the US for being successful as that ends up making other countries feel inferior. Personally, I think this guy is on the mark when it comes to those of your ilk and is on topic when it comes to your post (I have put some sections in bold for emphasis):

http://factsnotfantasy.blogspot.com/...-loathing.html



I hope that hits close to home. Perhaps, you should take a moment to reflect upon that.

For the record, I am a registered Democrat and my views typically lean toward Libertarian. What bothers me is that though I am middle-of-the-road when it comes to my views, both candidates are to the left of me - one of them significantly. I'd rather not vote for either of them; however, I'm only really left with the choice of voting for the one that most closely reflects my values. That, in my opinion, is a sad commentary on the state of politics in this country.
It is all how you read the resolutions and how it fits your (our Gov't) agenda.

1) We're the ONLY nation in history that used the WMD against the other nation
2) We're the only nation that invaded sovereign countries for own and unjustified reasons.

3) The war with Yugoslavia in 1999 was NEVER approved by the UN and Security Council. Furthermore, the Congress NEVER proclamed it as the War even though it is required to do so after so many days (I am not sure of the exact number).
- to continue there -- we supported publically announced terrorist organization (KLA) in that war -- we were IN BED with them all the way.

4) War in Iraq was NEVER approved by the UN and SC. Your resolutions all cite "may consider" or similar words, nowhere "approved".

5) In the eyes of the World, we (the USA) is greater threat to the World peace than any terrorist organization or any dictatorship out there.

Finally, you have a hard time understanding a simple concept -- being against one does not mean you're with the other one (the only other choice). I find many negative things about Obama, but not even close to what Bush did, lied, proposed or whatever in the last 8 years. 8 years ago I saw a bright future for my kids in this country, today, and if this continues -- I see none.

You c/p words from propaganda sites above and crap that can be translated two ways -- the way it fits the reader. I have traveled in the last 12 years more than most people on this board or people you know. I have talked to people, compared lives, happiness, economies of the other countries to the USA. We're have been going steadily down while most of the others were going the opposite way -- especially since 2000.

I am against Bush, against this stupid Dem Senate (or whatever you call it), against last 8 years of sinking. Put whoever you want in the office that will show positive things. So far, I have only seen positive energy and optimism from Obama's side, and funeral-like rallies from the other...

EDIT:
To answer your question -- how many countries provoked us that we attacked:
1) Yugoslavia has NEVER provoked the USA
2) Iraq has never done anything bad to us and it was proven by our own Gov't that it had no ties to Al Qaeda and no intention to hurt us
3) Somalia...
4) How did Vietnam hurt the USA? Or was it another World Police thing and to get closer to the USSR?

Now, show me another Western developed country that has the same or even similar record, please...
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      07-30-2008, 12:00 PM   #30
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So far, I have only seen positive energy and optimism from Obama's side, and funeral-like rallies from the other...

Are you referring to his calls for "change"?

ha
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      07-30-2008, 12:11 PM   #31
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looks like violence is way down in Iraq this year. Has victory been accomplished? I hear Sunni insurgents are being given a salary by US taxpayers to not attack American troops. Looks like the only insurgents who haven't been bribed to play nice are AlQaeda, they're still blowing up shit.
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      07-30-2008, 12:13 PM   #32
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Are you referring to his calls for "change"?

ha
No, not exactly -- both of them call for change as they see the public is clearly unhapy with the current regime -- pure political games.

I am talking about his rallies, the tone, people cheering, European tour and feedbacks, the feedback of the people abroad I talk to daily....
Versus McCain sorry ass rallies, the age of people that attend them, messages he passes -- same boring crap over and over, and so on.

I want to see positive energy, and optimism radiating from the candidate and McCain is simply lacking that this time...so far
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      07-30-2008, 12:17 PM   #33
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dr325i View Post
No, not exactly -- both of them call for change as they see the public is clearly unhapy with the current regime -- pure political games.

I am talking about his rallies, the tone, people cheering, European tour and feedbacks, the feedback of the people abroad I talk to daily....
Versus McCain sorry ass rallies, the age of people that attend them, messages he passes -- same boring crap over and over, and so on.

I want to see positive energy, and optimism radiating from the candidate and McCain is simply lacking that this time...so far

"I am older than dirt and have more scars than Frankenstein," John McCain likes to say.
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      07-30-2008, 12:18 PM   #34
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Originally Posted by Icedog_16 View Post
(I have put some sections in bold for emphasis):

http://factsnotfantasy.blogspot.com/...-loathing.html



I hope that hits close to home. Perhaps, you should take a moment to reflect upon that.
Sorry, I jusr re-read your bold post above...
Please point me out where I (or pretty much any poster here that opposes Bush dictatorship) said that the USA deserved in ANY way to be attacked on 9/11, where I EVER said anything against the US Citizens (except the Government)...

Also, please show me the logic where you're a true patriot by not questioning and challenging your government about the actions done.

Your post above (article and bold emphasis) is completely mindless and points out exactly what I stated about this government that labels everyone disagreeing with them an enemy -- exactly what Bush said after 9/11 -- you're with me or you're the enemy -- pure definition of dicatorship
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      07-30-2008, 02:25 PM   #35
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Originally Posted by dr325i View Post
It is all how you read the resolutions and how it fits your (our Gov't) agenda.

1) We're the ONLY nation in history that used the WMD against the other nation
2) We're the only nation that invaded sovereign countries for own and unjustified reasons.

3) The war with Yugoslavia in 1999 was NEVER approved by the UN and Security Council. Furthermore, the Congress NEVER proclamed it as the War even though it is required to do so after so many days (I am not sure of the exact number).
- to continue there -- we supported publically announced terrorist organization (KLA) in that war -- we were IN BED with them all the way.

4) War in Iraq was NEVER approved by the UN and SC. Your resolutions all cite "may consider" or similar words, nowhere "approved".

5) In the eyes of the World, we (the USA) is greater threat to the World peace than any terrorist organization or any dictatorship out there.

Finally, you have a hard time understanding a simple concept -- being against one does not mean you're with the other one (the only other choice). I find many negative things about Obama, but not even close to what Bush did, lied, proposed or whatever in the last 8 years. 8 years ago I saw a bright future for my kids in this country, today, and if this continues -- I see none.

You c/p words from propaganda sites above and crap that can be translated two ways -- the way it fits the reader. I have traveled in the last 12 years more than most people on this board or people you know. I have talked to people, compared lives, happiness, economies of the other countries to the USA. We're have been going steadily down while most of the others were going the opposite way -- especially since 2000.

I am against Bush, against this stupid Dem Senate (or whatever you call it), against last 8 years of sinking. Put whoever you want in the office that will show positive things. So far, I have only seen positive energy and optimism from Obama's side, and funeral-like rallies from the other...

EDIT:
To answer your question -- how many countries provoked us that we attacked:
1) Yugoslavia has NEVER provoked the USA
2) Iraq has never done anything bad to us and it was proven by our own Gov't that it had no ties to Al Qaeda and no intention to hurt us
3) Somalia...
4) How did Vietnam hurt the USA? Or was it another World Police thing and to get closer to the USSR?

Now, show me another Western developed country that has the same or even similar record, please...
You're kidding right? And, of course, you cite absolutely nothing since you know I'll have to do extra work to show that you are incorrect.

The only way I interpret the UN resolutions is the way in which they were intended by the UN. I don't know where you're going with that. Let's see if I can dissect your rambling post.

Re your first set of numbered items:

1) By using the atomic bomb, we actually spared many lives on both sides. It broke the will of the people and hostilities immediately ceased. Keep in mind that it was a completely different political climate then. Also, note that we didn't use it to inflict the most casualties, the targets were strategic in that they were manufacturing centers for the Japanese military. Imagine what would have happened had we gone after Tokyo.

BTW, why do you think wars constantly drag on anymore? Because we must tread lightly instead of doing what likely needs to be done. The fact that you view the US in a negative light because we used atomic bombs to end a bloody war is exactly the self-loathing I'm talking about. And it's also a textbook case of revisionist history.

Also, don't forget that Germany and Iraq have both used WMD.

2) I believe that you named them in your edit, so I will deal with that when I get there.

3) We went to Yugoslavia to honor our commitment to NATO.
http://www.infoplease.com/spot/kosovo-timeline1.html (Oh look, a citation!)
BTW, if Congress didn't declare war, how then is it that you can say we went to war against Yugoslavia?

4) How many times do I have to say that the Gulf War ended in a cease-fire, not a surrender? As such, it never really ended. Honestly, we should have finished the job in 1991.

The UN didn't have to authorize action, Resolution 686 kept Resolution 678 in full-force, which allowed member states "to use all necessary means to uphold and implement resolution 660 (1990) and all subsequent relevant resolutions and to restore international peace and security in the area". http://www.fas.org/news/un/iraq/sres/sres0678.htm No resolution was ever passed rescinding that stipulation. Hussein didn't abide by the rules set forth in the terms of the cease-fire and we called him on it.

5) More self-loathing. I suppose that they (and you) are entitled to your opinion, but I don't see it that way. Having religious zealots who believe that paradise is the push of a button away I think is a bigger threat.

In my opinion, you're letting self-loathing and the media bring you down. Do I agree with everything Bush has done? Not at all. Do I think he's as awful as I hear almost perpetually through the media? Not at all. If I took as gospel everything I hear on the evening news, I might share a similar outlook as you do - they just feed your self-loathing. I take them with a grain of salt. I will make up my own mind as to how the economy (or anything else) is doing. How many times have I heard this slowdown referred to a recession? Probably a few hundred. However, it's not a recession when there is still growth, albeit slow.

The show that is Obama is all sizzle and no steak. Sure I can hope for change and change for hope or whatever. But be careful for what you wish. He's a Marxist, which we most certainly don't need and which is completely contrary to the values our country was founded upon and upon which it has thrived. Moreover, he strikes me as being disingenuous - the type of guy who'll smile to your face and tell you what you want to hear and then stab you in the back the moment you turn around. Caveat voter.

Not sure where you came up with the assertion that I cut-and-paste from propaganda sites. You must have me confused with someone else. Off the top of my head, I've cited the Washington Post, BBC, Federation of American Scientists, The Guardian. I could see you being justified if I were citing various 527 groups or partisan political thinktanks, but that's simply not the case.

For what it's worth, I have traveled a bit myself, most recently to London, and I actually felt good to be an American. I never saw any reason when comparing notes that would make me feel as miserable as you seem. After all, why is it that if life is so good in these other places so many are champing at the bit to live here? I just don't see the downward spiral you're talking about. Sounds like more of that self-loathing.

On to your second set of numbered items:

1) Already addressed that we were fulfilling our NATO obligation.

2) Iraq invaded Kuwait and failed to abide by the terms of the cease-fire and subsequent UN resolutions and we finally called Hussein on it.

3) Somalia was a UN peace-keeping and humanitarian mission (yep, the US is THAT bad). Last I checked, we didn't attack a sovereign government. http://news.bbc.co.uk/onthisday/hi/d...00/4013143.stm
http://www.un.org/Depts/DPKO/Missions/unosomi.htm
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Unified_Task_Force

4) Take a look at this and tell me we invaded Vietnam: http://servercc.oakton.edu/~wittman/chronol.htm
http://vietnam.vassar.edu/overview.html
We supported the South Vietnamese after the Geneva Peace Accords, in part, because the French left a power vacuum and to counterbalance Sino-Soviet intentions.

No other Western country is put in the same position we are today, so there are none. However, I would argue that if you look at Great Britain, France, Germany, Italy, you will see that in their history they have attacked other countries and not at the behest of an international body. Any time the proverbial $hit hits the fan, all those countries look to us to do something about it; with the exception of Vietnam, all the 'attacks' you list are because those Western countries looked to us. And we are in the unenviable position of being damned if we do and damned if we don't.
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      07-30-2008, 02:38 PM   #36
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Sorry, I jusr re-read your bold post above...
Please point me out where I (or pretty much any poster here that opposes Bush dictatorship) said that the USA deserved in ANY way to be attacked on 9/11, where I EVER said anything against the US Citizens (except the Government)...

Also, please show me the logic where you're a true patriot by not questioning and challenging your government about the actions done.

Your post above (article and bold emphasis) is completely mindless and points out exactly what I stated about this government that labels everyone disagreeing with them an enemy -- exactly what Bush said after 9/11 -- you're with me or you're the enemy -- pure definition of dicatorship
Point me out where I said that you said that. However, I have heard the sentiment from time to time - do Reverend Jeremiah Wright and Ward Churchill ring a bell? Personally, I find it disgusting.

I see no reason to have to justify myself to you; I think my posts have done that just fine. And I have not once stated that I am a 'true patriot' as you state nor have I impugned you on the topic so I don't know where you're going there; unless you are implying that I am incapable of critical thought and I think that, again, my posts have shown that I excel in that arena. Sounds to me as though you don't feel you're a 'true patriot', whatever that means.

Where did I say that anyone who didn't agree is the enemy? I said that I can't figure out what is up with all of the self-loathing. I'm happy with who I am and with being an American. Pessimism and self-loathing just feed one another. So, if you feel the need to be miserable and hate yourself and who you are and the country you live in, feel free; just please don't project your feelings at the rest of us.
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      07-30-2008, 02:45 PM   #37
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Point me out where I said that you said that. However, I have heard the sentiment from time to time - do Reverend Jeremiah Wright and Ward Churchill ring a bell? Personally, I find it disgusting.

I see no reason to have to justify myself to you; I think my posts have done that just fine. And I have not once stated that I am a 'true patriot' as you state nor have I impugned you on the topic so I don't know where you're going there; unless you are implying that I am incapable of critical thought and I think that, again, my posts have shown that I excel in that arena. Sounds to me as though you don't feel you're a 'true patriot', whatever that means.

Where did I say that anyone who didn't agree is the enemy? I said that I can't figure out what is up with all of the self-loathing. I'm happy with who I am and with being an American. Pessimism and self-loathing just feed one another. So, if you feel the need to be miserable and hate yourself and who you are and the country you live in, feel free; just please don't project your feelings at the rest of us.
Sorry, I don't listen to the news much, not sure what the reverend said above...
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      07-30-2008, 02:56 PM   #38
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You're kidding right? And, of course, you cite absolutely nothing since you know I'll have to do extra work to show that you are incorrect.

The only way I interpret the UN resolutions is the way in which they were intended by the UN. I don't know where you're going with that. Let's see if I can dissect your rambling post.

Re your first set of numbered items:

1) By using the atomic bomb, we actually spared many lives on both sides. It broke the will of the people and hostilities immediately ceased. Keep in mind that it was a completely different political climate then. Also, note that we didn't use it to inflict the most casualties, the targets were strategic in that they were manufacturing centers for the Japanese military. Imagine what would have happened had we gone after Tokyo.

BTW, why do you think wars constantly drag on anymore? Because we must tread lightly instead of doing what likely needs to be done. The fact that you view the US in a negative light because we used atomic bombs to end a bloody war is exactly the self-loathing I'm talking about. And it's also a textbook case of revisionist history.

Also, don't forget that Germany and Iraq have both used WMD.

2) I believe that you named them in your edit, so I will deal with that when I get there.

3) We went to Yugoslavia to honor our commitment to NATO.
http://www.infoplease.com/spot/kosovo-timeline1.html (Oh look, a citation!)
BTW, if Congress didn't declare war, how then is it that you can say we went to war against Yugoslavia?

4) How many times do I have to say that the Gulf War ended in a cease-fire, not a surrender? As such, it never really ended. Honestly, we should have finished the job in 1991.

The UN didn't have to authorize action, Resolution 686 kept Resolution 678 in full-force, which allowed member states "to use all necessary means to uphold and implement resolution 660 (1990) and all subsequent relevant resolutions and to restore international peace and security in the area". http://www.fas.org/news/un/iraq/sres/sres0678.htm No resolution was ever passed rescinding that stipulation. Hussein didn't abide by the rules set forth in the terms of the cease-fire and we called him on it.

5) More self-loathing. I suppose that they (and you) are entitled to your opinion, but I don't see it that way. Having religious zealots who believe that paradise is the push of a button away I think is a bigger threat.

In my opinion, you're letting self-loathing and the media bring you down. Do I agree with everything Bush has done? Not at all. Do I think he's as awful as I hear almost perpetually through the media? Not at all. If I took as gospel everything I hear on the evening news, I might share a similar outlook as you do - they just feed your self-loathing. I take them with a grain of salt. I will make up my own mind as to how the economy (or anything else) is doing. How many times have I heard this slowdown referred to a recession? Probably a few hundred. However, it's not a recession when there is still growth, albeit slow.

The show that is Obama is all sizzle and no steak. Sure I can hope for change and change for hope or whatever. But be careful for what you wish. He's a Marxist, which we most certainly don't need and which is completely contrary to the values our country was founded upon and upon which it has thrived. Moreover, he strikes me as being disingenuous - the type of guy who'll smile to your face and tell you what you want to hear and then stab you in the back the moment you turn around. Caveat voter.

Not sure where you came up with the assertion that I cut-and-paste from propaganda sites. You must have me confused with someone else. Off the top of my head, I've cited the Washington Post, BBC, Federation of American Scientists, The Guardian. I could see you being justified if I were citing various 527 groups or partisan political thinktanks, but that's simply not the case.

For what it's worth, I have traveled a bit myself, most recently to London, and I actually felt good to be an American. I never saw any reason when comparing notes that would make me feel as miserable as you seem. After all, why is it that if life is so good in these other places so many are champing at the bit to live here? I just don't see the downward spiral you're talking about. Sounds like more of that self-loathing.

On to your second set of numbered items:

1) Already addressed that we were fulfilling our NATO obligation.

2) Iraq invaded Kuwait and failed to abide by the terms of the cease-fire and subsequent UN resolutions and we finally called Hussein on it.

3) Somalia was a UN peace-keeping and humanitarian mission (yep, the US is THAT bad). Last I checked, we didn't attack a sovereign government. http://news.bbc.co.uk/onthisday/hi/d...00/4013143.stm
http://www.un.org/Depts/DPKO/Missions/unosomi.htm
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Unified_Task_Force

4) Take a look at this and tell me we invaded Vietnam: http://servercc.oakton.edu/~wittman/chronol.htm
http://vietnam.vassar.edu/overview.html
We supported the South Vietnamese after the Geneva Peace Accords, in part, because the French left a power vacuum and to counterbalance Sino-Soviet intentions.

No other Western country is put in the same position we are today, so there are none. However, I would argue that if you look at Great Britain, France, Germany, Italy, you will see that in their history they have attacked other countries and not at the behest of an international body. Any time the proverbial $hit hits the fan, all those countries look to us to do something about it; with the exception of Vietnam, all the 'attacks' you list are because those Western countries looked to us. And we are in the unenviable position of being damned if we do and damned if we don't.
Over and over -- you fall for the media/our Government/Foreign Government crap that you accept as the true situation.

The Atom Bombs in Japan may be shown here as the "savior" operation -- not elsewhere.
The "NATO" engagement in Yugoslavia would have not happened if the USA did not push for it (due to Albanian lobbying in DC) -- Europe was strongly against it before that. No UN approval was issued.
Majority of critical attrocities commited by "NATO" forces were actually done by the US pilots -- coincidence?
Yes, Iraq invaded Kuwait -- the actions of the USA in 1991 were approved by the UN, and supported by the majority members. I am talking 2003 -- when the gov't lied to the public with PPT slides, when there was NO approval and whe, in the end it was proven that all that Bush claimed were simple lies -- no Al Qaeda ties, no WMD, no nothing except a bad dictator that tortured his own, never did anything bad directly to the USA and so on...

Somalia -- peacekeeping mission -- you're funny. That is what we wanted it to look like before got our asses kicked out of there...

Again, your links are pointless -- I can give you just the opposite ones that may seem ridiculous to you...

The bottom line is where we are today, what the world thinks of us today and what is the future for us....

The violence in Iraq is (hopefully) down, although, it is emerging again. However, the real stuff we were after following the events of 9/11 is out there -- barely touched and the mastermind is who knows where.

I see other MUCH less equipped police/military arresting war criminals daily somewhere in Europe...and the allmighty USA cannot capture a guy that killed 3000 of innocent in one day...7 years later...sad...
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      07-30-2008, 03:27 PM   #39
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dr325i View Post
Over and over -- you fall for the media/our Government/Foreign Government crap that you accept as the true situation.

The Atom Bombs in Japan may be shown here as the "savior" operation -- not elsewhere.
The "NATO" engagement in Yugoslavia would have not happened if the USA did not push for it (due to Albanian lobbying in DC) -- Europe was strongly against it before that. No UN approval was issued.
Majority of critical attrocities commited by "NATO" forces were actually done by the US pilots -- coincidence?
Yes, Iraq invaded Kuwait -- the actions of the USA in 1991 were approved by the UN, and supported by the majority members. I am talking 2003 -- when the gov't lied to the public with PPT slides, when there was NO approval and whe, in the end it was proven that all that Bush claimed were simple lies -- no Al Qaeda ties, no WMD, no nothing except a bad dictator that tortured his own, never did anything bad directly to the USA and so on...

Somalia -- peacekeeping mission -- you're funny. That is what we wanted it to look like before got our asses kicked out of there...

Again, your links are pointless -- I can give you just the opposite ones that may seem ridiculous to you...

The bottom line is where we are today, what the world thinks of us today and what is the future for us....

The violence in Iraq is (hopefully) down, although, it is emerging again. However, the real stuff we were after following the events of 9/11 is out there -- barely touched and the mastermind is who knows where.

I see other MUCH less equipped police/military arresting war criminals daily somewhere in Europe...and the allmighty USA cannot capture a guy that killed 3000 of innocent in one day...7 years later...sad...
You're like talking to a wall - except a wall has better comprehension and makes more sense - so there is no point saying ad nauseam that the UN resolutions both justified and authorized our actions in 2003.

Your incoherent ramblings are filled with vitriol and hatred for self and for country. If you hate it so much, you're always free to leave. That's right, you're free - free as a result of all of the atrocities you've mentioned that our country has perpetrated in an effort to ensure that you remain that way. It's obvious (not that it wasn't before) that no amount of factual evidence or anything else will make you see things how they really are.

BTW, you may want to see someone for that self-loathing - you have one of the worst cases I've EVER seen. With that and with my deepest sympathies, I bid you adieu.
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      07-30-2008, 03:38 PM   #40
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As I said in another thread ....

Wow, this ignore list thing really works .... I have all the hateful Dailykos, and moveon.org crowd on it (which includes the bitter Florida boys - their hateful and ignorant talking points get old after a while), and I also have the bigot from the right (he knows who he is). The only time I see their worthless posts is when someone quotes them that is not on my list. How can I fix this without putting everyone on my list ..... come on guys .... stop quoting these fools!! They stopped taking their ‘happy pills’ a long time ago …
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      07-30-2008, 04:05 PM   #41
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We provided them aid to buy food. We extended them credit to buy American grain and other food stuffs. Saddam had a WMD capability without any American support. He used WMD before the US had any relations with him. We provided him no weapons as the article you linked to shows. There were some proposals to trade for Soviet weapons we needed examples of but they were never followed through on.

Are you aware that anthrax and botulism are naturally occurring pathogens? The CDC provided the Iraqis samples of research quality anthrax, not weaponized anthrax.

The Iraqi army was equipped with Soviet equipment and advised by Soviets. Its air force flew Soviet and French aircraft. It had virtually no US made weapons and those that it did have it got through third parties.

It was a Soviet client state.
You're in a dream land. Because most of Iraq's military weaponry was of French and Soviet origin does not mean we weren't in bed with Saddam. We did whatever necessary to ensure a victory over Iran in the Iran-Iraq War.

"What follows is an accurate chronology of United States involvement in the arming of Iraq during the Iraq-Iran war 1980-88. It is a powerful indictment of the president Bush administration attempt to sell war as a component of his war on terrorism. It reveals US ambitions in Iraq to be just another chapter in the attempt to regain a foothold in the Mideast following the fall of the Shah of Iran."

http://www.iranchamber.com/history/a...rming_iraq.php

With regards to anthrax, naturally occurring anthrax is acquired from contact with anthrax-infected animals or animal products. Humans are infected if they come in contact with these animals in some way - inhalation, cutaneous, and gastrointesinal. These cases are very rare. I don't recall Saddam using anthrax infected animals to kill Iranians or his own people.

Materials we exported from the US to Iraq were used by Saddam to further enhance his chemical warfare program. In fact, anthrax became a major component in the Iraqi biological warfare program. "On 25 May 1994, The U.S. Senate Banking Committee released a report in which it was stated that "pathogenic (meaning 'disease producing'), toxigenic (meaning 'poisonous'), and other biological research materials were exported to Iraq pursuant to application and licensing by the U.S. Department of Commerce." It added: "These exported biological materials were not attenuated or weakened and were capable of reproduction."

The report then detailed 70 shipments (including Bacillus anthracis) from the United States to Iraqi government agencies over three years, concluding "It was later learned that these microorganisms exported by the United States were identical to those the UN inspectors found and recovered from the Iraqi biological warfare program."

U.S. Senate Banking Committee Report (mentioned above)
http://www.gulfwarvets.com/arison/banking.htm

You can also check out Bear Spares Program and the Teicher Affidavit.

http://192.220.64.45/collections/hidden/teicher.htm

"CIA Director Casey personally spearheaded the effort to ensure
that Iraq had sufficient military weapons, ammunition and vehicles to
avoid losing the Iran-Iraq war. Pursuant to the secred NSDD, the United
States actively supported the Iraqi war effort by supplying the Iraqis
with billions of dollars of credits, by providing U.S. military
intelligence and advice to the Iraqis, and by closely monitoring third
country arms sales to Iraq to make sure that Iraq had the military
weaponry required. The United States also provided strategic operational
advice to the Iraqis to better use their assets in combat."

I'm done. Shouldn't have come back to this sub forum.
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      07-30-2008, 04:07 PM   #42
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Originally Posted by Icedog_16 View Post
You're like talking to a wall - except a wall has better comprehension and makes more sense - so there is no point saying ad nauseam that the UN resolutions both justified and authorized our actions in 2003.

Your incoherent ramblings are filled with vitriol and hatred for self and for country. If you hate it so much, you're always free to leave. That's right, you're free - free as a result of all of the atrocities you've mentioned that our country has perpetrated in an effort to ensure that you remain that way. It's obvious (not that it wasn't before) that no amount of factual evidence or anything else will make you see things how they really are.

BTW, you may want to see someone for that self-loathing - you have one of the worst cases I've EVER seen. With that and with my deepest sympathies, I bid you adieu.
Yep...name calling

I can go ahead and prove that your brain is nothing bigger than of the monkey I have done it before for a few on this forum), or try to reason with you.

If the whole world acknowledges our wrong doing in Iraq, if none of the developed countries chose to join us in the 2003 effort in Iraq, and if they did not approve it -- why would your small brain think that it was OK to do so???

Again and again -- your sources are "facts" to you -- not to majority of the rest or majority of people on this board.

Same as my sources may be meaningless to you, get it?

I assume your self ego will not allow you to understand that there is much more out there than a group of you still trying to prove something so obvious... Or maybe, there is only a few of you smart out there?
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      07-30-2008, 05:23 PM   #43
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Obama's Surge Shuffle
Politics: Barack Obama's refusal to admit he was wrong on President Bush's successful change of strategy in Iraq is as laughable as it is disingenuous. It also calls into question his qualifications to be president.

Obama was clearly opposed to the surge as he courted the Democrats' anti-war base. "I am not persuaded that 20,000 additional troops in Iraq is going to solve the sectarian violence," he said in 2007. "In fact, I think it will do the reverse."

But when he was confronted this week by ABC News' Terry Moran with the success of the surge, asking if he would have supported it knowing what he knows now, Obama's answer was "no."

Along with his refusal to admit the mistake came something else: an endless stream of double talk obviously designed to distract from our military's successes in Iraq. Obama spoke of "a combination of political factors inside of Iraq that then came right at the same time as terrific work by our troops." He added that "it wasn't any doubt that you have an additional 20,000 troops, and where they are right there, it is going to have an impact."

So after insisting the surge "will do the reverse" of quelling "sectarian violence," Obama now claims what he really said was that it would "have an impact" — meaning a positive impact.

As craftily worded as this may be, it's simply a lie. Moreover, the "political factors" Obama refers to — the Anbar Awakening in which Sunni chiefs turned against al-Qaida — were, in fact, primarily engineered by the U.S. military's dealings with those chiefs.

Obama's claim that "the Sunnis might have made the same decisions at that time" is no less than an insult to the U.S. commanders who worked so hard to convince the Iraqis it was in their interests.

Obama also provided ABC with this serving of gobbledygook: "The political dynamic was the driving force between that sectarian violence. And we could try to keep a lid on it, but if these underlining dynamics continued to bubble up and explode the way they were, then we would be in a difficult situation. I am glad that, in fact, those political dynamic shifted at the same time that our troops did outstanding work."

Imagine the media scrutiny if that kind of babble came from the mouth of George W. Bush instead of the 21st century's JFK.

No wonder the Obama campaign earlier this month removed the anti-surge statements from its Web site, and stopped listing the surge as part of "The Problem" in its section on Iraq.

Obama's "problem" turned out to be the solution, proving again how feeble his foreign policy judgment would be as commander-in-chief. His dishonesty about it disqualifies him all the more.
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      07-30-2008, 07:38 PM   #44
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I won't honor dr325i with a rebuttal as his contribution to the thread was preemptively written off. However, since it's topical, I will add the comment of a friend as to why the US is 'hated so badly', according to dr himself. It boils down to this:

Quote:
Think about living your life trying to please everyone around you. You have to put your own best interests second to what everyone else would like you to do. Now think about doing it on a national level. Foreign policy is not a popularity contest. Nations have to do what's in their best interest. This [Getting ahead] may piss off other nations. Many nations do things that are not in our (USA's) best interest.
And to which I add that a lot of them are pissed off because we already are ahead - and in the eyes of history, we are but a youngster. People love to hate winners and, as such and to use sports analogies, they hate the Patriots, the Yankees, the Lakers, the Canadiens, the Red Wings, etc.; they only like the home team. Instead of self-loathing, I am glad that the winning team is the home team as well; I wouldn't want it any other way. Having a defeatist attitude will only lead to that - defeat.

I will temper my comment with the idea that we cannot become complacent. We must continue to strive to be the best we can be. All too often it seems as though when we are one-upped that we look at it as the beginning of the downfall of the US when, in fact, it's a signal that we need just to try harder.

Last edited by Icedog_16; 07-30-2008 at 08:06 PM.
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