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      07-19-2008, 08:24 AM   #1
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pop the champagne, mission accomplished part II

Today conservatives and John McCain are gloating. They are declaring the Iraq war is over, the USA won.

http://www.redstate.com/diaries/reds...e-have-succee/





I thought success was going to be when the SHiites Sunnis and Kurds were going to live together in peace, when Iraqis were going to trust their government to do what is in everyone's best interest, protect the rights of the minorities (christians), when oil revenues were going to be shared evenly among the 3 parties. I never thought that success was going to mean millions of people displaced, tens of thousands dead, giant concrete barriers to separate Shiites and SUnnis that make Baghdad looks like a maze, and thousands of checkpoints that slow down business.
You can call this success if your definition of success is low violence. I'm sure this is not the success Bush/Cheney/Rumsfeld envisioned when they said Iraq would be a beacon of democracy for the rest of the middle east.

How many Middle East countries do you know want to end up a success like Iraq?
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      07-19-2008, 08:55 AM   #2
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Wow, you must be right. How could we have claimed to have won World War II when there were tens millions of people displaced, tens of millions dead, a giant wall dividing Berlin...?
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      07-19-2008, 09:03 AM   #3
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old news. "Mission Accomplished" LOOOOONG time ago, after all this whole war was a game of media more than anything else
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      07-19-2008, 09:56 AM   #4
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"40 million American households that don't watch McCain are generally happier
than those people in households that do watch McCain."
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      07-19-2008, 10:20 AM   #5
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ganeil View Post
Wow, you must be right. How could we have claimed to have won World War II when there were tens millions of people displaced, tens of millions dead, a giant wall dividing Berlin...?
Do you even realize the difference???
Sovereign country that NEVER did ANYTHING to the USA vs. World being attacked...
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      07-19-2008, 10:26 PM   #6
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Originally Posted by ganeil View Post
Wow, you must be right. How could we have claimed to have won World War II when there were tens millions of people displaced, tens of millions dead, a giant wall dividing Berlin...?
the only thing i can say about the iraq war is that it was necessary to go in, i supported the invasion, but the occupation was (and still is) terribly mismanaged. I can't say I would have done a better job of occupying and managing Iraq; but how could I do any worse than Bush/Cheney/Rumsfeld? how is it possible to do worse?

there's so many different groups inside of Iraq with their own agendas, and lots of outside groups like Iran, Syria, Kurds, Americans, Saudis, etc. . . who are all stirring up shit. That's why Iraq is the most dangerous place on Earth today. Iraqis are getting money and arms from different countries, and being asked to kill one another for those different agendas. Iranian agendas vs American Agendas vs Sunni Agendas vs Wahabi Agendas.

My predictions for Iraq are bleak:
-I think Iraq is going to have major violence for years to come.

-I think when Americans leave Iraq, sectarian violence will get ugly, and the Shiite government will be complicit in some of it. But nobody in the world is going to care.

-I think Iraq will have a full civil war in the next 2-3 years, and I think the best thing for Americans to do is not take sides. Iran will fund the Shiites, Saudi Arabia/Egypt/Jordan will fund the Sunnis. Let them kill each other until there is a victor, and negociate an oil and security deal with the winner. It will be like being in bed with Saddam all over again.
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      07-20-2008, 08:19 AM   #7
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NoKids View Post
the only thing i can say about the iraq war is that it was necessary to go in, i supported the invasion, but the occupation was (and still is) terribly mismanaged. I can't say I would have done a better job of occupying and managing Iraq; but how could I do any worse than Bush/Cheney/Rumsfeld? how is it possible to do worse?

there's so many different groups inside of Iraq with their own agendas, and lots of outside groups like Iran, Syria, Kurds, Americans, Saudis, etc. . . who are all stirring up shit. That's why Iraq is the most dangerous place on Earth today. Iraqis are getting money and arms from different countries, and being asked to kill one another for those different agendas. Iranian agendas vs American Agendas vs Sunni Agendas vs Wahabi Agendas.

My predictions for Iraq are bleak:
-I think Iraq is going to have major violence for years to come.

-I think when Americans leave Iraq, sectarian violence will get ugly, and the Shiite government will be complicit in some of it. But nobody in the world is going to care.

-I think Iraq will have a full civil war in the next 2-3 years, and I think the best thing for Americans to do is not take sides. Iran will fund the Shiites, Saudi Arabia/Egypt/Jordan will fund the Sunnis. Let them kill each other until there is a victor, and negociate an oil and security deal with the winner. It will be like being in bed with Saddam all over again.
Although I may not agree with you on the first part, the second part (outcome scenarios) sounds about what everyone would expect. Again, we would have to question then -- what was achieved by the US occupation for 6 years and all deaths in the process... Unfortunately those who orchestrated all that will be peacefully resting on their ranches with their millions then...

Also, looks like we got rid of any opposite evidence in every conflict we messed up -- got rid of key witneses -- SH (Iraq), Milosevic (the Balkans), and people around them that no matter how bad they were to their own (not to us) they never got the chance to tell the other side of the story we've been fed by the media or other biased views...
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      07-20-2008, 10:47 AM   #8
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I am glad that the US was able to beat a 4 rate power that had been bombed and sanctioned for over a decade.

What a victory!! Yeah!!
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      07-20-2008, 12:01 PM   #9
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NoKids View Post
the only thing i can say about the iraq war is that it was necessary to go in, i supported the invasion, but the occupation was (and still is) terribly mismanaged. I can't say I would have done a better job of occupying and managing Iraq; but how could I do any worse than Bush/Cheney/Rumsfeld? how is it possible to do worse?
There is no question that there were mistakes made in each phase of the war. No human endeavor is perfect and the more complex the task, the more mistakes are possible and likely. I find it interesting that you place the blame on "Bush/Cheney/Rumsfeld" when the strategy for the post-Saddam administration came from GEN Powell's State Dept. It was State and CIA who opposed an Afghanistan style quick turn over to an Iraqi leadership. It was they who insisted on a long US administered occupation period to deny the external Iraqi opposition groups a "leg up" in setting up the new Iraqi gov't. Had Rumsfeld and Cheney prevailed in that policy dispute, we would have rolled into Baghdad with an Iraqi government led by the exile groups ready to take over almost immediately. Would that have nipped the insurgency in the bud? Who knows?

As for your comment that things could not have gone worse, you could be not be more wrong. Had we pulled out two years ago, AQI would control vast areas of the west and the area would be a base for the destabilization of the entire gulf.

Quote:
there's so many different groups inside of Iraq with their own agendas, and lots of outside groups like Iran, Syria, Kurds, Americans, Saudis, etc. . . who are all stirring up shit. That's why Iraq is the most dangerous place on Earth today. Iraqis are getting money and arms from different countries, and being asked to kill one another for those different agendas. Iranian agendas vs American Agendas vs Sunni Agendas vs Wahabi Agendas.

My predictions for Iraq are bleak:
-I think Iraq is going to have major violence for years to come.

-I think when Americans leave Iraq, sectarian violence will get ugly, and the Shiite government will be complicit in some of it. But nobody in the world is going to care.

-I think Iraq will have a full civil war in the next 2-3 years, and I think the best thing for Americans to do is not take sides. Iran will fund the Shiites, Saudi Arabia/Egypt/Jordan will fund the Sunnis. Let them kill each other until there is a victor, and negociate an oil and security deal with the winner. It will be like being in bed with Saddam all over again.
Every nation in the world has different groups with different interests. The Iraqis have learned the hard way that political disputes are best resolved politically. They came very close to seeing their nation dissolve into a Lebanon/Somalia type chaos and they do not want to see that happen - no one wins.

FWIW, we were NEVER in bed with Saddam. That is one of those urban legends that just won't die.
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      07-20-2008, 12:20 PM   #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ganeil View Post
Wow, you must be right. How could we have claimed to have won World War II when there were tens millions of people displaced, tens of millions dead, a giant wall dividing Berlin...?
We did NOT start second WW. We DID start war in IRAQ!!!!
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      07-29-2008, 05:45 PM   #11
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Originally Posted by ganeil View Post
Wow, you must be right. How could we have claimed to have won World War II when there were tens millions of people displaced, tens of millions dead, a giant wall dividing Berlin...?
"We" or the U.S. did not win the WWII. As to the Iraq war, yes, that's the U.S. trophy.
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      07-29-2008, 06:02 PM   #12
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Originally Posted by ATG View Post
"We" or the U.S. did not win the WWII. As to the Iraq war, yes, that's the U.S. trophy.
Hmmm... how do you then explain the occupations of Germany and Japan?
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      07-29-2008, 06:35 PM   #13
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ganeil View Post
FWIW, we were NEVER in bed with Saddam. That is one of those urban legends that just won't die.
You sure?

http://www.gwu.edu/~nsarchiv/NSAEBB/NSAEBB82/iraq31.pdf

http://www.commondreams.org/views02/0802-01.htm
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      07-29-2008, 06:37 PM   #14
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Quote:
Originally Posted by e90im View Post
We did NOT start second WW. We DID start war in IRAQ!!!!
Actually, Iraq started the war in Iraq. Their invasion of Kuwait started it. Apparently, it seems to have been omitted (conveniently? ) from history that the 1991 war in Iraq never ended; there was a cease-fire, not a surrender. Iraq broke the cease-fire agreement and ignored 17 UN resolutions and action was finally taken to hold Saddam Hussein accountable. It probably would have/should have been taken much sooner but for those on the UN Security Council who were on the take in the Oil-for-Food debacle.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/onthisday/hi/d...00/2515289.stm
http://www.whitehouse.gov/news/relea...0021002-2.html
http://www.fas.org/news/un/iraq/sres/sres0687.htm
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      07-29-2008, 06:45 PM   #15
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You sure?
Yes, I am. Restoring diplomatic relations with a nation is not the same as being in bed with them. We had diplomatic relations with the Soviets throughout the Cold War.
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      07-29-2008, 07:44 PM   #16
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Yes, I am. Restoring diplomatic relations with a nation is not the same as being in bed with them. We had diplomatic relations with the Soviets throughout the Cold War.
Is selling a murderous dictator weapons restoring diplomatic relations? The US and the UK sold Saddam Hussein the technology and materials Iraq needed to develop nuclear, chemical, and biological weapons of mass destruction that were used against Iraqis and Iranians. We did indeed for a time have very close ties with Saddam. Saying we did not is erroneous. This topic has been discussed by Congress. We slept with Saddam, and it ended up screwing us in the rear. Now we are back in Iraq looking for WMDs which we gave Saddam. Too bad there weren't any left. Dumbasses.
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      07-29-2008, 08:10 PM   #17
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bobby_Light View Post
Is selling a murderous dictator weapons restoring diplomatic relations? The US and the UK sold Saddam Hussein the technology and materials Iraq needed to develop nuclear, chemical, and biological weapons of mass destruction that were used against Iraqis and Iranians. We did indeed for a time have very close ties with Saddam. Saying we did not is erroneous. This topic has been discussed by Congress. We slept with Saddam, and it ended up screwing us in the rear. Now we are back in Iraq looking for WMDs which we gave Saddam. Too bad there weren't any left. Dumbasses.
You are simply wrong. Saddam got his weapons, to include his nuclear and chemical capabilities from the Soviets mainly and the French.

We did provide him with some spare parts and intel during the Iran war but we did the same for Iran as well. We did not want either to prevail.

Iraq was a Soviet client state until the end of the Cold War.
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      07-29-2008, 08:21 PM   #18
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Originally Posted by Icedog_16 View Post
Actually, Iraq started the war in Iraq. Their invasion of Kuwait started it. Apparently, it seems to have been omitted (conveniently? ) from history that the 1991 war in Iraq never ended; there was a cease-fire, not a surrender. Iraq broke the cease-fire agreement and ignored 17 UN resolutions and action was finally taken to hold Saddam Hussein accountable. It probably would have/should have been taken much sooner but for those on the UN Security Council who were on the take in the Oil-for-Food debacle.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/onthisday/hi/d...00/2515289.stm
http://www.whitehouse.gov/news/relea...0021002-2.html
http://www.fas.org/news/un/iraq/sres/sres0687.htm
How many UN rules did we ignore in the last 50 years.
How many countries did we invade?

All that you put above is crap compared to our "debacles"
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      07-29-2008, 08:22 PM   #19
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ganeil View Post
You are simply wrong. Saddam got his weapons, to include his nuclear and chemical capabilities from the Soviets mainly and the French.

We did provide him with some spare parts and intel during the Iran war but we did the same for Iran as well. We did not want either to prevail.

Iraq was a Soviet client state until the end of the Cold War.
I assume next you will claim we did not train and equip Al Qaeda either...
Soviets (and French) must have done it to themselves...
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      07-29-2008, 08:40 PM   #20
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Originally Posted by ganeil View Post
Hmmm... how do you then explain the occupations of Germany and Japan?
I will give the U.S. credit for Japan, but not any major role in defeating Germany. The U.S. conveniently came to the table too late.
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      07-29-2008, 08:43 PM   #21
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The U.S. has been acting arrogantly lately and it will pay the price for it. If Russia, China, India, and latin American countries will form a strong economic and political union that will be the end of the U.S. "big daddy" era. And the saddest thing is that the U.S. is literally goign bankupt. But that's natural. Even Roman Empire didn't last forever.
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      07-29-2008, 09:21 PM   #22
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ganeil View Post
You are simply wrong. Saddam got his weapons, to include his nuclear and chemical capabilities from the Soviets mainly and the French.

We did provide him with some spare parts and intel during the Iran war but we did the same for Iran as well. We did not want either to prevail.

Iraq was a Soviet client state until the end of the Cold War.
You are simply wrong. Congressional record from 2002.

"How Saddam Happened"
http://www.fas.org/irp/congress/2002_cr/s092002.html

"I asked Secretary Rumsfeld:

Mr. Secretary, to your knowledge, did the United States
help Iraq to acquire the building blocks of biological
weapons during the Iran-Iraq war? Are we in fact now facing
the possibility of reaping what we have sewn?

The Secretary quickly and flatly denied any knowledge but said he
would review Pentagon records.
I suggest that the administration speed up that review. My concerns
and the concerns of others have grown.
A letter from the Centers For Disease Control and Prevention, which I
shall submit for the Record, shows very clearly that the United States
is, in fact, preparing to reap what it has sewn. A letter written in
1995 by former CDC Director David Satcher to former Senator Donald W.
Riegle, Jr., points out that the U.S. Government provided nearly two
dozen viral and bacterial samples to Iraqi scientists in 1985--samples
that included the plague, botulism, and anthrax, among other deadly
diseases.
According to the letter from Dr. Satcher to former Senator Donald
Riegle, many of the materials were hand carried by an Iraqi scientist
to Iraq after he had spent 3 months training in the CDC laboratory.
The Armed Services Committee is requesting information from the
Departments of Commerce, State, and Defense on the history of the
United States, providing the building blocks for weapons of mass
destruction to Iraq. I recommend that the Department of Health and
Human Services also be included in that request.
The American people do not need obfuscation and denial. The American
people need the truth. The American people need to know whether the
United States is in large part responsible for the very Iraqi weapons
of mass destruction which the administration now seeks to destroy.
We may very well have created the monster that we seek to eliminate.
The Senate deserves to know the whole story. The American people
deserve answers to the whole story."

More lies. More coverup. Rumsfeld apparently has a history as a liar.

From: http://www.defenselink.mil/transcrip...nscriptid=2185

"MR. STEPHANOPOULOS: Finally, weapons of mass destruction. Key goal of the military campaign is finding those weapons of mass destruction. None have been found yet. There was a raid on the Answar Al-Islam Camp up in the north last night. A lot of people expected to find ricin there. None was found. How big of a problem is that? And is it curious to you that given how much control U.S. and coalition forces now have in the country, they haven't found any weapons of mass destruction?

SEC. RUMSFELD: Not at all. If you think -- let me take that, both pieces -- the area in the south and the west and the north that coalition forces control is substantial. It happens not to be the area where weapons of mass destruction were dispersed. We know where they are. They're in the area around Tikrit and Baghdad and east, west, south and north somewhat."

Then he lies and said he never knew where they were. Video:

http://images1.americanprogress.org/...um.320.240.mov
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