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      05-31-2010, 02:37 PM   #1
DLSJ5
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Dyno Vs. Real World Results, New Dyno's & How Efficient The Gintani Stg 2+ Kit is...

Dyno Results vs. Performance Data & Real World Results

I'll admit Dyno's don't mean a whole heck of a lot to me in comparison to real world performance results/Vbox data. I know a lot of FI guys here feel the same way I do, we added FI to simply go faster not to compare dyno charts or other car test guesstimates, while they have their use, they are rather boring in comparison to actually driving the car to see where you stand.

However, over the course of the past several months it seems my Gintani Stage 2+ dyno's have created a lot of questions, at times a bit of drama, along with a few questionable antics, lol. Most had fair questions and let's face it the initial #'s were not stellar, but I feel much of what has taken place was unfair, at times immature, improper and just nasty, but as the cliche' goes "Dyno sheets sell products." So a certain crowd made many attempts to attack my dyno's and me personally, while ignoring the performance results I was getting.

I've noticed in the Dyno Database here that the boost levels and the fuel used on Gintani Supercharged dyno's have been arbitrarily changed or added, while other dyno results, which IMHO are far more questionable, are frankly just accepted/overlooked, why? I believe in some cases those other Gintani #'s have been changed in more ways than one, simply because of my less than stellar results and how they compare and it's highly inappropriate.

My initial dyno of 517WHP was not stellar, fair enough, and when I heard the #'s, I was not excited. I expected more especially when you see other vendors had posted dyno's near 600whp at 6-7psi on pump gas! HOWEVER, after I drove the car, did every Vbox test I could, ran a few comparo's I knew the car was performing much better than that 517whp # indicated, and frankly I didn't care anymore about the initial dyno because real world results were more important to me and I was loving the performance results.

Here's a few reasons why -

1. The very night I picked up my car, the Vbox performance #'s, were in line or very close to Enzo's, ZR1's, LP640's, Carrera GT's, Modded 996/7TT's, Modded GT-R's, etc. The car annihilated a stock 997tt and modded M5 shortly after.

2. 7.3s on the Vbox no other car has hit that making only 517/532whp, even those that dynoed the same or more than me, except Mike's 560 whp 6psi & 100 shot ESS SC'd M3 that ran an outstanding 7 seconds flat! Regardless his Dyno #'s and mine did not correlate in the least, but our Vbox times were close.

3. Comparo runs, the car has ran with 600whp GT-R's, even pulled at times, highly modded 550+whp 996TT's, ran with a 750 BHP 997TT, a 635whp HPF Stage 3 E46 M3 and many more, the car run after run does very well against cars that at the time had dynoed much more than me. I knew that other supercharged cars making the same or even more power on the dyno, did not do as well as my car has against similar cars.

4. 11.45 @ 131 MPH, The other car that trapped 130 MPH was Sticky's Gintani Stage 2+, that is flat out moving folks.

Discovering The Reason For The 517 and 532 #'s

Some, including myself thought MAYBE the cats were the reason for the lower #'s because the car was absolutely performing in the real world and on the Vbox, so after I changed the xpipe to the Gintani catless setup I went back and dynoed again, and I hit 532WHP, not a bad #, but it was still not correlating with the results I was seeing on the road, and based on my performance #'s that dyno result still didn't make much sense. So I experimented a bit.

The Gintani "Ram Intake" at the time had a small air filter, smaller than stock, so after the 532 dyno run, I simply took the filter off and we did another pull on the dyno and the results were pretty crazy, lol, 600WHP & 397WTQ!! But of course at 10-11psi, lol, way too much for the octane I was running, but the ECU protected the motor, and unfortunately it enabled a temporary limp mode where your redline is reduced for a certain amount of miles, so I couldn't do any more runs at that dyno session. Regardless, at 8psi the car was around 540whp SAE at only 7100rpms! Where on the run just before I hit the 532WHP @ 8psi near redline.

So after this we installed a new intake, did some slight retuning, but the Vbox #'s were basically the same. What I've come to realize is the initial airbox with it's "ram air" induction worked optimally while the car was moving but stationary on a dyno it was not getting enough air, it was choking the car quite a bit, and skewing the actual dyno results in comparison to how it was performing. I was satisfied that this was the reason and after that hit i hit 7.3s 60-130 and the 131 trap, all in line with how the car was running in comparo runs, so I didn't feel the need to redyno at the time.

However just recently my old lackluster dyno #'s have come up again, and yes in comparison to others they made Gintani look less than stellar, the least efficient and it appears they were used to change the other Gintani cars claimed psi or fuel, and then that car became the least efficient. No amount of how well the two cars have performed to date in the real world, or how I feel about dyno's and what their primary function is vs. performance data, would register with a certain crowd. Fair enough, the dyno data was now needed and essential.

My Thoughts on The "Rating Supercharger Kit Efficiency" thread, Which Prompted Me to Re-Dyno

You can read more about it here -http://WWW.pencilgeek.org/2010/05/ra...it-effici.html

Here's the chart PG posted a few days ago and is now on his blog, see the link above.



1. My baseline was around 30whp more than the others, lol, which affect the results a great deal and my 517 lackluster dyno was used, even though I had dynoed better sense, at 532WHP! :P

2. IMHO the incorrect baseline dyno was used for my car but in fairness to Pencilgeek, the author of the efficiency thread, he did not know that I had a baseline with the only mod that transferred over to the SC, so it makes more sense to apply the 354.9 Baseline.

Below is my 354.9 whp Baseline, which would still make it the highest baseline of all the 4.0L S65's.

Baseline Dyno with the xpipe/HFC's.

Dyno Database Entry - http://bmw.pencilgeek.org/showDyno.html?recID=40



3. Evidently my 532WHP dyno was not used because it was "catless" and my baseline had HFC's, although I did have the same exhaust, and the 517whp run did not, fair enough.

--FWIW When you figure in the pertinent/correct baseline 354.9whp, the Gintani kit moved into second behind ESS. If the 532 # was applied as well, only 15 more WHP, lol, it appears the Gintani kit would now be the most efficient of the three.

*Here's how it would come out if the 354.9whp baseline was applied instead of 367, Gintani would move ahead of Gpower, into 2nd place.

Efc = (517 - 355) - (7.15*(91-91)) / 3.996 / 8.0
= (162 - 0) / 3.996 / 8.0
= 5.07

**If the 532WHP was applied as well, Gintani would move ahead of ESS, from last to first place in PG's efficiency rating.

Efc = (532 - 355) - (7.15*(91-91)) / 3.996 / 8.0
= (177 - 0) / 3.996 / 8.0
= 5.53

Description Before After Gain Octane Displ. Boost Efc.
Gintani Stg2/WM 355 532 177 91 3.996 8.0 5.53**
ESS-46 409 561 152 91 4.619 6.0 5.48
ESS-46 409 601 192 96 4.619 6.25 5.41
ESS VT2 329 468 139 91 3.996 6.5 5.39
ESS VT1 338 441 103 92 3.996 4.5 5.33
Gintani Stg2/WM 355 517 150 91 3.996 8.0 5.07*
G-Power SK2 338 457 119 91 3.996 6.0 4.92
G-Power SK2 319 437 118 91 3.996 6.0 4.92
G-Power SK2 346 545 199 94.5 3.996 9.0 4.83

4. The ESS VT-1's baseline dyno was conducted with the stock xpipe- all four stock cats, so his baseline would only work if his Supercharger dyno's were also with the stock cats. However, when he dynoed with the VT-1 ESS kit, he also installed a "Full" Ericsson Exhaust/xpipe/HFC's, at the same time, so all four stock cats were gone and HFC's/xpipe were installed , in essence, his #'s are nowhere near what this initial data claims efficiency wise.

*If the xpipe and HFC's are worth 20WHP, then he only gained 83whp from the charger, and if we recalculate the VT-1 Non-Intercooled entry moves to last place efficiency wise.

Efc = (338 - 421) - (7.15*(92-92)) / 3.996 / 4.5
= ( 83 - 0) / 3.996 / 4.5
= 4.61

Description Before After Gain Oct Displ. Boost Efc.
ESS-46 409 561 152 91 4.619 6.0 5.48
ESS-46 409 601 192 96 4.619 6.25 5.41
ESS VT2 329 468 139 91 3.996 6.5 5.39
G-Power SK2 338 457 119 91 3.996 6.0 4.92
G-Power SK2 319 437 118 91 3.996 6.0 4.92
G-Power SK2 346 545 199 94.5 3.996 9.0 4.83
Gintani Stg2 367 517 150 91 3.996 8.0 4.69
Gintani Stg1 330 461 131 91 3.996 7.0 4.68
ESS VT1 338 421* 83 92 3.996 4.5 4.61*


5. Boost levels were arbitrarily increased on the Gintani cars in the Dyno Database, Brian's car, (nitrider) who is not used in this efficiency data, went from 5.5psi to 6.5psi, but not the other cars that are claming much more WHP from modest boost levels. SammyRusso's car (Gintani Stg1 above) for some odd reason went from 5.5psi to 7psi, but he never dynoed on a DJ, nor did he ever run the 7psi pulley.

To clarify, Sammy's 461whp on the Dyno Dynamics was done PRIOR to that particular DD's Dyno receiving a software update, after the SW update that dyno read much more conservative, therefore his #'s were not relevant nor could you compare them to mine, this is the reason that it appears that I only made a bit more power than him. I can assure you I was making much more, our performance #'s are VASTLY different and tell the real story. Still one can't arbitrarily raise boost levels, because of one particular cars dyno results, it is highly improper.

--It appears one's word on the boost level, and fuel used as well, doesn't apply to Gintani cars but it does for everyone else? If you apply the correct psi to Sammy's run, 5.5 psi, he moves into a rating of 5.96, and he would move well into first place, if you apply 6.5 psi, he would move into 2nd place vendor wise with a 5.04 rating, but the arbitrary 7psi takes him to last place.

I can assure you based on his Vbox runs anywhere from 1 - 1.5 seconds behind me, that he's not running 7psi vs. my 8-9psi! On the VBox, DCT times are much more consistent than 6MT, I've done plenty to know. It has little to do with driving skill, I don't do the shifting, BMW does it for me. Sammy's car would be Bus Lengths behind in side by side comparo's. One need not look farther than our trap speeds as well, 121MPH vs. 131MPH, that's a rather LARGE difference, just as our Vbox results indicate too.

6. On the ESS-46 561WHP # "6psi" entry, the boost actually reads at approx. "7.5 psi" on the dyno chart @ 561whp. See Below Dyno. Here it is recalculated, it moves this entry to last place on the chart when you apply the boost @ peak power.

Efc = (561 - 409) - (7.15*(91-91)) / 4.619 / 7.5
= ( 152 - 0) / 4.619 / 7.5
= 4.39

Description Before After Gain Octane Displ. Boost Efc.
ESS-46 409 601 192 96 4.619 6.25 5.41
ESS VT2 329 468 139 91 3.996 6.5 5.39
ESS VT1 338 441 103 92 3.996 4.5 5.33
G-Power SK2 338 457 119 91 3.996 6.0 4.92
G-Power SK2 319 437 118 91 3.996 6.0 4.92
G-Power SK2 346 545 199 94.5 3.996 9.0 4.83
Gintani Stg2 367 517 150 91 3.996 8.0 4.69
Gintani Stg1 330 461 131 91 3.996 7.0 4.68
ESS-46 409 561 152 91 4.619 7.5* 4.39*



7. It seems as if as little as 5whp or 1psi can change the results quite a bit, so which dyno run, or boost log do you use? And who decides?

8. The only cars that have a boost log are mine and PG's the others do not, how can we say for certain the exact psi at peak power without the boost log?

9. Does it matter what gear you dynoed in before and after? Because from what I've found the outcome will vary enough to skew these results.

What The Gintani Stage 2+ Kit Actually Measures on The Dyno Jet (The Standard) and How it NOW Stacks up Against the Other Kits Efficiency Wise

So I went back and dynoed with the new intake AND HFC's/Stock exhaust so these #'s will apply to my baseline of 355whp, (still the highest baseline of all the 4.0L's), not the 367whp which includes more mods, here are the results all at approx. 9 - 9.8psi. FWIW I am seeing 8psi on my AEM boost gauge, but do from time to time see 9psi. I'm posting the dyno results with all 3 different CF's.

91 octane 564WHP & 364WTQ





91 octane + WATER/METH 573WHP & 374WTQ X3 runs, very consistent.





Old Intake vs. New Intake, Dyno's overlaid, HUGE difference.



FWIW here is Pencilgeeks ESS-46 - 91 pump dyno compared to my 91 pump run, peak is a wash, but PG's makes gobs more under the curve, who says a stroker is not worth it!? Very impressive dyno results.



Barring any mathmatical errors, here's where my Gintani Stage 2 now sits on the efficiency list based on accurate dyno runs and an accurate baseline. I've included running HFC's/Stock Exhaust combo for BOTH before and after Dyno's. Sammy's Gintani Stage 1 IMHO should not be included on this list because his boost level was arbitrarily extrapolated from my runs and as I've explained are not consistent with one another.

Here's How it Looks Now Efficiency Wise-

It appears to be the most efficient of the three.

Description Before After Gain Octane Displ. Boost Efc.
Gintani Stg2+ 355 573 218 91WM 3.996 9.5 5.74
Gintani Stg2+ 355 563 208 91 3.996 9.2 5.65

ESS-46 409 561 152 91 4.619 6.0 5.48
ESS-46 409 601 192 96 4.619 6.25 5.41
ESS VT2 329 468 139 91 3.996 6.5 5.39
ESS VT1 338 441 103 92 3.996 4.5 5.33
G-Power SK2 338 457 119 91 3.996 6.0 4.92
G-Power SK2 319 437 118 91 3.996 6.0 4.92
G-Power SK2 346 545 199 94.5 3.996 9.0 4.83

Performance Data, Here's How it Stacks up so Far-

60-130 MPH Vbox times

7.0s - ESS VT1 @ 6psi, 100 shot of Nitrous, 570whp
7.3s - Gintani Stage 2, 9.5psi, 570whp
8.3s - ESS VT-2 @ 6psi, 518whp
8.3s - ESS-46 @ 6.25- 7.5psi? 560 whp, 6MT
8.8s - Gintani Stage 1 @ 5.5psi no dynojet result, 500whp guesstimate on a DJ, HFC's
8.8s - ESS VT-1 575 @ 5.5psi, 481whp, stock cats
9.1s - Gpower Stage 2 @ 6psi, no dyno #'s, 6MT

Real World 1/4 Mile-

Gintani Stage 2+ 11.45 @ 131MPH (570 whp) DLSJ5
Gintani Stage 2+ 11.91 @ 130MPH (550 whp) Sticky
Gintani Stage 1 12.20 @ 121MPH (500whp guesstamite) SammyRusso
ESS-46 (3295 lbs.) 13.61 @ 125MPH **VBox Data During Mojave Mile** (601WHP)Pencilgeek

Real World E92 M3 Gintani Stage 2+ Comparo Runs -

2 - 600whp (720BHP) HKS GT570 Nissan GT-R's - EVEN
600WHP Porsche 997TT AWE 750R - EVEN
635WHP (750BHP) HPF E46 Stage 3 M3 - EVEN
550WHP (675BHP) Porsche Modded 996TT - PULLED 2 cars
Stock Porsche 997TT - Pulled Bus lengths
E60 M5 Modded - Pulled Bus lengths
__________________
08 E92 M3 DCT - Bolt Ons - 60-130MPH 10.71s - 11.88 @ 118MPH - 377WHP
ESS VT2-625 SC 60-130MPH 6.80s - 11.30 @ 129.3 MPH 586WHP / 379WTQ @ 7.2psi - 94 octane / Water meth
ESS VT3-750 - 60-130MPH 6.44s - 10.81 @ 135.13 MPH 690Whp/463Wtq@13.5 psi

Last edited by DLSJ5; 05-31-2010 at 03:19 PM.
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      05-31-2010, 03:01 PM   #2
M3V8
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Gintani FTW!
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      05-31-2010, 03:16 PM   #3
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Nice numbers Drew!!

Just enjoy your car mate, I think all the SC kits have their cool features, and the main thing is that each guy who has a blower regardless of make, has a blast with it

Comparing efficiency online isn't necessary, all kits are performing well in the real world, and no more motors have blown.
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      05-31-2010, 03:25 PM   #4
DLSJ5
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bob MG View Post
Nice numbers Drew!!

Just enjoy your car mate, I think all the SC kits have their cool features, and the main thing is that each guy who has a blower regardless of make, has a blast with it

Comparing efficiency online isn't necessary, all kits are performing well in the real world, and no more motors have blown.
I agree with that, but I felt this post was necessary, it maybe a bit too self indulgent and long winded though, lol. I appreciate your response, you've always been very level headed in your replies, having fun with your car is what it's all about, VERY WELL SAID.

But it's good to see that the dyno #'s now truly represent how the kit has performed from day one!
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08 E92 M3 DCT - Bolt Ons - 60-130MPH 10.71s - 11.88 @ 118MPH - 377WHP
ESS VT2-625 SC 60-130MPH 6.80s - 11.30 @ 129.3 MPH 586WHP / 379WTQ @ 7.2psi - 94 octane / Water meth
ESS VT3-750 - 60-130MPH 6.44s - 10.81 @ 135.13 MPH 690Whp/463Wtq@13.5 psi
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      05-31-2010, 03:28 PM   #5
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bob MG View Post
Nice numbers Drew!!

Just enjoy your car mate, I think all the SC kits have their cool features, and the main thing is that each guy who has a blower regardless of make, has a blast with it

Comparing efficiency online isn't necessary, all kits are performing well in the real world, and no more motors have blown.
Ditto.

Tired of the supercharged camps trying to outdo, outsmart, and out-data each other.

This thread has both sides of the argument (links to contrasting results), so we'll leave it at that for people to interpret themselves.
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