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      07-31-2008, 08:33 AM   #23
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As a former Pcar owner ('04 C4S, '05 Carrera S "launch edition), I like my M3 better. Just my two cents.
I Never owned a porsche before. Any particular reason why you like the M3 better?
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      07-31-2008, 09:08 AM   #24
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Overall, I think the build quality is superior. The M3 provides the best of all possible worlds--incredible performance, coupe, interior that is larger than a 911, useable back seat, V8, etc. etc. Not to mention the full maintenance. That is just too cool.

Another factor for me due my age (26) is that I'm actively working and don't really want to be bothered with having to continually take my car in for service. That is something I faced with both 911s. The '05 was actually the first 997 my dealer received so I think some of the issues were related to it being one of the first; however, a lot of things were just inexcusable for a $100k car--carpet peeling off the side door/passenger area (when I hardly ever had anyone on the passenger side), coolant lines not being hooked in all the way (driving the car home after just two days, the car nearly dumped all of its coolant--they literally told me "Hans must have been drunk on the assembly line that day), and then of course RMS. I had to have the RMS replaced once and once I read about all of the issues 996 owners had with multiple replacements and sometimes even engine replacements and I thought who needs to deal with that. Other issues I think were related to early build 997 problems--coolant bottle (or whatever it's called) needing to be replaced in engine area due to leaking, failure of airbag control module.

I think 911s are cool, distinctive cars, but for an every day driver, I like the M3 much better. If I buy a 911 again, it will be when I am blessed enough to be able to buy a Turbo as a third car--that way if it's getting serviced, I don't care.

For me, the answer is an M3 hands down.
Also, it's a good deal for what you get for the money. My '05 997s was loaded, even with ceramic brakes and it stickered at $100k. I've seen some 911s now that don't even have full leather at $100k. I think it's absurd to cross that threshold and to not have full leather etc. on a car at that price. Makes the M3 at $70k seem like a deal. Porsche is also going to the new direct injection engine and some of the current Turbo/GT2 guys are concerned that the new engines will not be as reliable, since the old Turbo/GT2 engines were different blocks than the regular 911s and Boxsters.

Too, it all comes down to preference. I would encourage you to drive both a new 911 and new M3, compare the pros and cons with your needs, then make an informed decision. Also, since the 997 has been out for awhile I would also encourage you to drive a used one with maybe 20,000+ miles just so you can see how it has held up over time. A friend of mine bought a new Boxster S a few months after I got my last 911. He still has his and from what he says, he has to take it in for problems all the time.
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      07-31-2008, 12:33 PM   #25
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I Never owned a porsche before. Any particular reason why you like the M3 better?
The included service is very hard to ignore. Porsche service isn't exactly the greatest to deal with, with my Cayenne S there was definitely some tooth pulling necessary to get minor issues fixed the way I wanted, and they love $.
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      07-31-2008, 02:20 PM   #26
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The included service is very hard to ignore. Porsche service isn't exactly the greatest to deal with, with my Cayenne S there was definitely some tooth pulling necessary to get minor issues fixed the way I wanted, and they love $.
Thanks for the heads-up. I have to admit service at BMW is a plus. I'm also looking at the Audi S5. I will take all this into consideration before deciding which way to go.
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      07-31-2008, 02:38 PM   #27
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Thanks for the heads-up. I have to admit service at BMW is a plus. I'm also looking at the Audi S5. I will take all this into consideration before deciding which way to go.
The Audi S5 is somewhat nice to look at, that is about it I found out that with the extended warranty on the M3 (if one opts for it) free service is available. Potential for 6 years free maintenance, very nice.
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      07-31-2008, 05:08 PM   #28
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The Audi S5 is somewhat nice to look at, that is about it I found out that with the extended warranty on the M3 (if one opts for it) free service is available. Potential for 6 years free maintenance, very nice.
My greatest fear with the S5 is that after 2-3 years, the looks of the car will become BLAND! Thus my interest in the 2009 911. Also, i was somewhat disappointed to find out that maintenance/ service was not included on the S5
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      07-31-2008, 06:57 PM   #29
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Overall, I think the build quality is superior. The M3 provides the best of all possible worlds--incredible performance, coupe, interior that is larger than a 911, useable back seat, V8, etc. etc. Not to mention the full maintenance. That is just too cool.

Another factor for me due my age (26) is that I'm actively working and don't really want to be bothered with having to continually take my car in for service. That is something I faced with both 911s. The '05 was actually the first 997 my dealer received so I think some of the issues were related to it being one of the first; however, a lot of things were just inexcusable for a $100k car--carpet peeling off the side door/passenger area (when I hardly ever had anyone on the passenger side), coolant lines not being hooked in all the way (driving the car home after just two days, the car nearly dumped all of its coolant--they literally told me "Hans must have been drunk on the assembly line that day), and then of course RMS. I had to have the RMS replaced once and once I read about all of the issues 996 owners had with multiple replacements and sometimes even engine replacements and I thought who needs to deal with that. Other issues I think were related to early build 997 problems--coolant bottle (or whatever it's called) needing to be replaced in engine area due to leaking, failure of airbag control module.

I think 911s are cool, distinctive cars, but for an every day driver, I like the M3 much better. If I buy a 911 again, it will be when I am blessed enough to be able to buy a Turbo as a third car--that way if it's getting serviced, I don't care.

For me, the answer is an M3 hands down.
Also, it's a good deal for what you get for the money. My '05 997s was loaded, even with ceramic brakes and it stickered at $100k. I've seen some 911s now that don't even have full leather at $100k. I think it's absurd to cross that threshold and to not have full leather etc. on a car at that price. Makes the M3 at $70k seem like a deal. Porsche is also going to the new direct injection engine and some of the current Turbo/GT2 guys are concerned that the new engines will not be as reliable, since the old Turbo/GT2 engines were different blocks than the regular 911s and Boxsters.

Too, it all comes down to preference. I would encourage you to drive both a new 911 and new M3, compare the pros and cons with your needs, then make an informed decision. Also, since the 997 has been out for awhile I would also encourage you to drive a used one with maybe 20,000+ miles just so you can see how it has held up over time. A friend of mine bought a new Boxster S a few months after I got my last 911. He still has his and from what he says, he has to take it in for problems all the time.
Thanks. Your info was very useful.
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      08-01-2008, 02:41 AM   #30
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My greatest fear with the S5 is that after 2-3 years, the looks of the car will become BLAND! Thus my interest in the 2009 911. Also, i was somewhat disappointed to find out that maintenance/ service was not included on the S5
I think the S5 is so clean looking, they could have a timeless design. The S5 is a beautiful car, no doubt.

Audi does have a maintenance/service program. It is called Audi Care.

From the Audi site:
"When you purchase a new Audi, you have the opportunity to purchase Audi Care, a comprehensive new vehicle scheduled maintenance service plan. The cost of the Audi Care New Vehicle Plan may be rolled into your vehicle payment, if it is purchased at the time of vehicle sale.
The Audi Care New Vehicle Plan covers the manufacturer-required regularly scheduled maintenance services at 15,000 miles, 25,000 miles, 35,000 miles, and 45,000 miles, or 5 years from the original vehicle in-service date, whichever comes first. The cost of Audi Care is $650 MSRP"
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      08-01-2008, 06:28 AM   #31
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I think the S5 is so clean looking, they could have a timeless design. The S5 is a beautiful car, no doubt.

Audi does have a maintenance/service program. It is called Audi Care.

From the Audi site:
"When you purchase a new Audi, you have the opportunity to purchase Audi Care, a comprehensive new vehicle scheduled maintenance service plan. The cost of the Audi Care New Vehicle Plan may be rolled into your vehicle payment, if it is purchased at the time of vehicle sale.
The Audi Care New Vehicle Plan covers the manufacturer-required regularly scheduled maintenance services at 15,000 miles, 25,000 miles, 35,000 miles, and 45,000 miles, or 5 years from the original vehicle in-service date, whichever comes first. The cost of Audi Care is $650 MSRP"
I stand corrected. Thanks. That bit of info may have tipped me in favor of the S5.
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      08-02-2008, 12:12 PM   #32
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Intimidation tactic. Tell him to go fuck himself. It works with idiots like that. I've done it once.
+3 What a wanker that CA is. The customer w/ good credit and funds is in the proverbial deal drivers' seat right now. Plenty of willing dealers.
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      08-03-2008, 02:50 PM   #33
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I have to wholeheartedly disagree with you. I have owned multiple Porshes, and my family and friends also own many regular 996s, 997s, 150K 996TTs, Cayennes, etc and we have never experiences ANY of the problems you listed. We have also owned plenty of BMWs (Ms, 3s, 5s, X's) and we have had far more quality problems with the bimmers...had one suspsion totally FAIL! Even my client advisor was in and drove my my Cayman S (as I nearly bought an 09 M3 coupe) and was amazed at how much better the quality and fit and finish were in the Cayman S-and even went on to say it was better than anything they offered in ANY car. And I dont even want to mention how much better he thought the whole package was, save for 'storage space'.
You get what you pay for. There are reasons why Porsches cost more (performance, heritage, quality, etc) and why they consistently outperform bmw in IQS and dependability studies.
Bmw makes a great 'sporty' car that is good for DD'ing, but when it comes down to connected feel, quality & fit and finish, uniqueness, and having a car that is the best sports car ever made, its Porsche (and Ferrari) bar none.
For me, the m3 was good, but couldnt quite cut it. It just isnt fun to drive or anything special unless you ae beating the hell out of it. The handling compared to the Cayman S makes it feel like range rover. Straight line is good, but gets boring and the interior was bland and had too many rattles (on a new 300 miles car).
It *does* come down to preference, but if you want a pure experience, Porsche and Ferrari FTMFT!
I have to wholeheartedly disagree with YOU. I have had 3 BMW's in the past 6 years along with my 04 Cayenne S. This Porsche quality you talk about is nonsense, the reason they cost more is because Porsche makes more money per vehicle, not because the parts are better.

My Cayenne S had the cooling tubes fail last year. The dealer never bothered to call me to tell me that in warm climates the PLASTIC tubes tend to fail past 50,000 miles. They did not bother to tell me before my warranty ran out, on purpose naturally to save themselves cash and make money on me later. I had to get the parts from Germany on my own and had my mechanic install them but a giant pain in the ass. Last week the oil pump failed and one of the injectors gave out.

No issues with any of my BMW's, and BMW service was on top of minor things quick (m3 rear deck rattle, X3 bushings). My X3 felt far more "connected" to the road than the Cayenne and handled much better. Now, I love my Cayenne, but just because it has a Porsche badge does not make it automatically better than any of the X series.

Why even bother to throw Ferrari into the discussion? Hmmm M3 or 612, definite cross shopping going on there. Sorry, but your post just reeks of badge snobbery. The Cayman is a mid engine, sports car. Compare it to an elise and it is the Cayman that starts to seem like a Range Rover. If the E92 M3 is boring you have not driven it, or any m3, properly, period.
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      08-03-2008, 03:47 PM   #34
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I have to wholeheartedly disagree with you. I have owned multiple Porshes, and my family and friends also own many regular 996s, 997s, 150K 996TTs, Cayennes, etc and we have never experiences ANY of the problems you listed. We have also owned plenty of BMWs (Ms, 3s, 5s, X's) and we have had far more quality problems with the bimmers...had one suspsion totally FAIL!
+1 Getting somewhat relative to OP's thread but on this Consumer Reports' surveys and JD Power data do favour P-cars' build and QC over Bimmers.

Hey, I drive Bimmers but I can't ignore these data. It's one reason why I have been considering a P-car, and the owners I know have found them to be well-built.
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      08-03-2008, 05:44 PM   #35
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I was one of the first people to drive both the new m3 coupe and sedan at my dealership (and nearly bought one, bc i thought it was a pretty good car coming from a highly modded e46 m3). I actually thrashed that car with only ~300 miles on it when i drove it. I OWNED an 2004 e46 m3 with over $30K in aftermarket parts alone not including labor spent. I said the m3 is fun when beating the hell out of it, but boring otherwise...thats my opinion and it wont change. I DO think its a better car than the e46 m3 overall, stock for stock. If you think the m3 is THAT great, you know nothing about cars, period and have not driven a real sports/exotic car. Its very good, but isnt a real/true sports car.
And its funny you mention the x3, my fathers daily driver next to his 996TT is an x3. Has had 3 X3s in the last 17 months and just picked up a new 08 yesterday...and while i think its a great car, its no cayenne in terms of feel and performance and handling in MY experience.
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      08-03-2008, 06:57 PM   #36
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I was one of the first people to drive both the new m3 coupe and sedan at my dealership (and nearly bought one, bc i thought it was a pretty good car coming from a highly modded e46 m3). I actually thrashed that car with only ~300 miles on it when i drove it. I OWNED an 2004 e46 m3 with over $30K in aftermarket parts alone not including labor spent. I said the m3 is fun when beating the hell out of it, but boring otherwise...thats my opinion and it wont change. I DO think its a better car than the e46 m3 overall, stock for stock. If you think the m3 is THAT great, you know nothing about cars, period and have not driven a real sports/exotic car. Its very good, but isnt a real/true sports car.
And its funny you mention the x3, my fathers daily driver next to his 996TT is an x3. Has had 3 X3s in the last 17 months and just picked up a new 08 yesterday...and while i think its a great car, its no cayenne in terms of feel and performance and handling in MY experience.
I gotta call you out on some of this stuff. First, in terms of reliability and IQ, your family/friends' and your experiences are purely annecdotal, not statistical. You could just as easily find someone else who has had the opposite experience. Granted, I think Porsches overall do have great fit and finish, possibly better than BMW, but some of the most rattling cars that I've been in are Porsches.

Second, you are certainly entitled to your opinion, but your global comparison of the driving feel of Porsches and BMWs is a bit skewed. For one thing, you compare an X3 (as opposed to an X5) to a Cayenne. You also talk about the low fun factor of the M3 compared to Porsches, but I found the M3 to be much more fun than a 997 C2, which costs 5 figures more. To get the same level of performance and fun as the M3, I would have bought either the C2S or the Cayman S (all three very different feeling cars though, so difficult to compare).

That said, your assessment that the M3 is somewhat tame when not being pushed is spot on. I like that though because the M3 gives you the best of both worlds. It will compete with some amazing cars on the track, but gives you the luxury features and comfort of a DD.

I seriously considered a Cayman S and was very, very torn between it and the M3. In the end, like you mentioned, it came down to practicality rather than which was more fun to drive.

To get back on topic, I was offered 0.9% financing on an M3 this weekend. I told the CA she might want to check with her manager first.
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      08-03-2008, 07:07 PM   #37
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I gotta call you out on some of this stuff. First, in terms of reliability and IQ, your family/friends' and your experiences are purely annecdotal, not statistical. You could just as easily find someone else who has had the opposite experience. Granted, I think Porsches overall do have great fit and finish, possibly better than BMW, but some of the most rattling cars that I've been in are Porsches.

Second, you are certainly entitled to your opinion, but your global comparison of the driving feel of Porsches and BMWs is a bit skewed. For one thing, you compare an X3 (as opposed to an X5) to a Cayenne. You also talk about the low fun factor of the M3 compared to Porsches, but I found the M3 to be much more fun than a 997 C2, which costs 5 figures more. To get the same level of performance and fun as the M3, I would have bought either the C2S or the Cayman S (all three very different feeling cars though, so difficult to compare).

That said, your assessment that the M3 is somewhat tame when not being pushed is spot on. I like that though because the M3 gives you the best of both worlds. It will compete with some amazing cars on the track, but gives you the luxury features and comfort of a DD.

I seriously considered a Cayman S and was very, very torn between it and the M3. In the end, like you mentioned, it came down to practicality rather than which was more fun to drive.

To get back on topic, I was offered 0.9% financing on an M3 this weekend. I told the CA she might want to check with her manager first.
I pulled the trigger on the 2009 M3 this weekend! September production date, mid to late October pick up. Will post details later, but not a bad deal.
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      08-03-2008, 07:08 PM   #38
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I pulled the trigger on the 2009 M3 this weekend! September production date, mid to late October pick up. Will post details later, but not a bad deal.
Come on, let us know what kind of deal you got. I am still pushing to get 3k off, so far managed 2k with two dealers on a DCT coupe.
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      08-03-2008, 08:48 PM   #39
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Come on, let us know what kind of deal you got. I am still pushing to get 3k off, so far managed 2k with two dealers on a DCT coupe.
Alright Sticky: 2009 M3-- Space Grey Metallic, 6-MT, black Novillo Ext., NAV, 19", I-pod/usb, CWP, PP. $66,000 out the door! What do you think? If you like, PM me and I'll give you more details.
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      08-03-2008, 10:32 PM   #40
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I pulled the trigger on the 2009 M3 this weekend! September production date, mid to late October pick up. Will post details later, but not a bad deal.
Sounds like you'll be getting yours at the same time I get mine. Can't wait!

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In no way did my post intent to say or allude to BMW being terrible or anything of the sort. Everyone has their own opinions and experiences-those are some of mine. The point I was making was that while one guy did not have great reliability, his experience was not the end all be all, and it was just as easy to find the complete opposite as you stated almost verbatim in your post.
Sounds like we're on the same page.
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      08-03-2008, 10:36 PM   #41
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i was close in getting a cayman s.... I liked the part that it was exclusive...A little to much for the area.. Road's and area... The interoir is just as nice as the m3...Except the m3 is so much bigger inside.. I also thought the m3 was a little classy(interior)... The cayman interior is just as bland..Also feel like I'm in a 914......Same Same Same That kind of feel...In a straight line m3 and braking..m3 handling and feel a little edge on the cayman...But I'm not tracking these car's either.... I heard stories about service and repair cost's on cayman.... bad ... Price get fully loaded m3 for the price of a standard cayman s.... Plus if i am going to ever get a porsche it will be only a 911..So this is my reasoning on the choice's... I really tried to get the cayman s... It made me shake it off... M3 more muscular.. cayman more sex appeal... Plus the facelift on the cayman is coming and you don't know what there up to... Value???? Thay are missteping on there car lineup..... M3 for sure.... To make m3 exclusive put a tuner kit.. Then look out.. My view...
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      08-04-2008, 03:34 PM   #42
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The service on the Cayman S is really not bad...its not 'free' like BMWs but its not horribly expensive. I personally found the m3 to be a good car, but the interior was bland (cold and clinical in feel rather than warm and driver oriented as like the Cayman). The power was good, but after driving the Cayman S, the handling doesnt come close. I WILL be tracking so having a lightweight car, with pure racing heritage, inherent mid engined balance and brakes that can withstand many repeated stops without fading made a huge impact on my decision. The Cayman S also appealed to me more in looks...its pure sex.
If i needed more space (which I dont at the time), the m3 would have likely been my choice since its the closest youll get without actually buying a P car or F car, etc.
Racing heritage? Is that why they give the Cayman the wet sump motor? Is that why the engineer it down on purpose to not step on the 911's toes? The cayman is a neutered car, the M3 is built up not built down. I have had porsche brakes fade on me, unless you have ceramics they most certainly can fade. The Cayman S is not a 911, if you want to talk Porsche and racing. The M3 has a far more colorful racing history than the Cayman will ever have.

The Cayman S appeals more in looks to you? Hmmm, I suppose if you like the way a hardtop boxster would look. I feel it looks feminine. The interior of the Cayman is a bit behind the times, not feeling your impression. No ipod connection? No bluetooth? No DSG? No dry sump motor? No limited slip? What exactly are you paying for (the badge)?

If I wanted a real Porsche to track, it would be a GT3. I suppose a Cayman is the closest you will get without actually buying a real P car.
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      08-06-2008, 08:14 PM   #43
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wow sticky.... You toke the word's right out of my mouth....lololol I was being nice..But you are right.... by the way does the cayman like to get tapped from it's feminine side????hahhahahhahah
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      08-07-2008, 10:39 AM   #44
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Racing heritage? Is that why they give the Cayman the wet sump motor? Is that why the engineer it down on purpose to not step on the 911's toes? The cayman is a neutered car, the M3 is built up not built down.

_____

If I wanted a real Porsche to track, it would be a GT3. I suppose a Cayman is the closest you will get without actually buying a real P car.
The Cayman is an excellent car. I don't see how you could claim that its not a real Porsche when it has been engineered better than the current 911s. There's a reason they had to cut its performance short - it would take sales away from the 911. The Cayman doesn't have "racing heritage" on its own, hell, its only a few years old, but Porsche certainly does. I also don't see how you can argue the "built up" vs "built down" point. I'd think a car designed to be what it is, and only limited for marketing reasons, is no more "neutered" than a car that was designed to wear many hats, even if one of those is a 414hp performance beast. The Cayman has been kicked in the shins by Porsche, there's no way to get around that, but it is an incredible car and there's really no room to jump on the M3 high horse and shout down insults at the car. If Porsche had to limit the car to keep it from infringing on the 911, I would consider it even more worthy of the Porsche badge.

My only gripe about the Cayman/S (besides the lack of power, obviously) is that they price it $10M above the Boxster, which, due to the folding roof, is more costly to manufacture.

Sorry, rant off.
xsilvor is offline   United_States
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