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      07-14-2008, 09:28 PM   #45
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Apparently Iraq is pretty high some people's list here in terms of priority. Hey, I know we're supposed to be all badasses with bimmers but shouldn't we be worrying about this huge economic mess we're in right now? Budget deficit, trade deficits, unemployment, inflation, gas prices. It's simple math, you can't pump too much money into both guns and butter and the more moronic of these two candidates doesn't understand basic economics.

Common sense in politics.
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      07-14-2008, 09:32 PM   #46
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Basically, both aren't too great, but from what I see and hear I believe that Obama is a bullshit artist, and I really don't want a president that will just tell me what I want to hear because I already have plenty of politicians in lower political offices that do that for me already.
You'll be waiting a long time to find a politico that fits that description...get comfy. The one in the office right now is just as good at BS'ing than any, with that "I'm an outsider, in Texas I brought Democrats and Republicans together"
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      07-14-2008, 09:36 PM   #47
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wow, over half the people on here are retarded
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      07-14-2008, 11:32 PM   #48
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Originally Posted by unagi1 View Post
You'll be waiting a long time to find a politico that fits that description...get comfy. The one in the office right now is just as good at BS'ing than any, with that "I'm an outsider, in Texas I brought Democrats and Republicans together"
Except of course, as governor of Texas, he DID bring both sides together. He tried in Washington as well. It was the Dems who slapped the offered hand.
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      07-14-2008, 11:49 PM   #49
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Neurorad View Post
If Obama wins, you'll lose a lot of money, and be out of a job.

You may have to find another career. Or just live off your pension.

Why do former servicemen get such big pensions? My friend is retiring at age 41, living off my taxes.

Oh yeah, you get shot at.
Because they offered to put their lives on the line for at least 20 years making peanuts so you can have the freedom to afford your M3 and all the other nice stuff you have. (as well as all the other freedoms).

If you really don't understand that then....nevermind.

By they way, unless your 41 year old friend was a Colonel or higher, or got really lucky in the stock market during the last 20 year, he won't be "living" off his pension. Most likely, he'll have another job and be starting a who new career at 41 years old, not necessarily by choice.
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      07-15-2008, 06:56 AM   #50
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Because they offered to put their lives on the line for at least 20 years making peanuts so you can have the freedom to afford your M3 and all the other nice stuff you have. (as well as all the other freedoms).

If you really don't understand that then....nevermind.

By they way, unless your 41 year old friend was a Colonel or higher, or got really lucky in the stock market during the last 20 year, he won't be "living" off his pension. Most likely, he'll have another job and be starting a who new career at 41 years old, not necessarily by choice.
And why would he be able to retire at 41 from a job like every other???
This is the only country with a remote possibility of that, on top of shit education, no healthcare and so on...
Maybe our priorities got messed up...

Who's driving an M3??? Ah, you...while making "peanuts"...
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      07-15-2008, 08:43 AM   #51
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Except of course, as governor of Texas, he DID bring both sides together. He tried in Washington as well. It was the Dems who slapped the offered hand.
Well that's a pretty convenient excuse. Of course, when your party has control of both sides of Congress and a mandate to protect America, I guess you can just do whatever the hell you want.

Torture. It's ALL good
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      07-15-2008, 08:51 AM   #52
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By they way, unless your 41 year old friend was a Colonel or higher, or got really lucky in the stock market during the last 20 year, he won't be "living" off his pension. Most likely, he'll have another job and be starting a who new career at 41 years old, not necessarily by choice.
He's a Commander in the Navy, 1 step down from Colonel equiv. Grew up poor. Got a full ride in college, elite school. Genius. I'm certain he could live off his pension - frugal with his earnings, always saving money. I'm sure he'll get a job consulting, or directing, after he's done; not the type of person to sit and watch TV.

A military pension is a HUGE chunk of change. If it wasn't waiting there, at age 40, not many would re-up.

As you age in the military, the risk of getting shot <usually> drops. The pension is necessary to keep experienced people in the military.
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      07-15-2008, 09:12 AM   #53
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Well that's a pretty convenient excuse. Of course, when your party has control of both sides of Congress and a mandate to protect America, I guess you can just do whatever the hell you want.

Torture. It's ALL good
Is this some sort of rebuttal to my point? The president came to Washington trying to establish a, "new tone." Early on he reached out to Sen. Kennedy on the No Child Left Behind legislation but his attempts at bipartisanship were rebuffed, most especially after the Senate change with the defection of Jim Jeffords.

This is not to say I approved of his attempts to bridge the partisan divide, I did not. That does not change the facts that he was a bipartisan governor in Texas and attempted to be the same as president.

I have no clue what your torture comment possibly means.
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      07-15-2008, 10:36 AM   #54
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I think it was a token attempt at bridging the divide, nothing more. Eight years later, he's managed to alienate not only the Democrats but his own party base. There is no lasting legacy with which he will be credited. Everyone just wants to move on.

Also, it's simply easier to bridge divides in your home state, especially with one with such a strong identity as Texas. Once you go to DC you have to be flexible with other opinions and play the game. Attempts notwithstanding, you can't be right 100% and capitulations and concessions were not something in his vocabulary.
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      07-15-2008, 10:47 AM   #55
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I think it was a token attempt at bridging the divide, nothing more. Eight years later, he's managed to alienate not only the Democrats but his own party base. There is no lasting legacy with which he will be credited. Everyone just wants to move on.

Also, it's simply easier to bridge divides in your home state, especially with one with such a strong identity as Texas. Once you go to DC you have to be flexible with other opinions and play the game. Attempts notwithstanding, you can't be right 100% and capitulations and concessions were not something in his vocabulary.
Attempting to discern a president's legacy while he is in office is a fool's errand. President Bush's time in office will be judged on one thing, his response to 9/11. If he finishes his term without another attack on US soil and if Afghanistan and Iraq develop somewhat stable, western leaning, moderately representative governments then he may follow Truman who was not appreciated until he was long dead. Since no one knows right now what the future holds, his legacy is yet to be determined.

What can be said is that if he is recognized in a favorable light, the democrat opposition will surely not be. They have made opposition to every administration proposal their sole objective. The relative merits of the proposals were not important, just the fact that the president supported it was reason enough to oppose and obstruct.
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      07-15-2008, 11:10 AM   #56
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Whoever gets the Whitehouse will not be liked given the state of the US economy. It will be a rough 4 years for either McCain or Obama. It would be nice to see Obama win the presidency to give hope to Americans and further show that if you have the will and determination to succeed in this world, you can.
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      07-15-2008, 12:02 PM   #57
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and over 95% of the civilized world, according to you...ah, wait...
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      07-15-2008, 12:22 PM   #58
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It would be nice to see Obama win the presidency to give hope to Americans and further show that if you have the will and determination to succeed in this world, you can.
Hope for what? For the notion that a person from an upper middle class background who attended elite schools can succeed?
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      07-15-2008, 01:07 PM   #59
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Hope for what? For the notion that a person from an upper middle class background who attended elite schools can succeed?
The key word in the post above is WORLD -- the person can go out of the USA again and freely say where they came from...

Also, you're still under the impression that by going to "elite" school you're better educated and equipped for the real World? Robot...did I ever mention that?
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      07-15-2008, 10:34 PM   #60
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Quote:
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Attempting to discern a president's legacy while he is in office is a fool's errand. President Bush's time in office will be judged on one thing, his response to 9/11. If he finishes his term without another attack on US soil and if Afghanistan and Iraq develop somewhat stable, western leaning, moderately representative governments then he may follow Truman who was not appreciated until he was long dead. Since no one knows right now what the future holds, his legacy is yet to be determined.

What can be said is that if he is recognized in a favorable light, the democrat opposition will surely not be. They have made opposition to every administration proposal their sole objective. The relative merits of the proposals were not important, just the fact that the president supported it was reason enough to oppose and obstruct.
Truman presided over an era that included two wars (three if you count the cold war), the resurgence of American economic power, and the establishment of NATO. I find it interesting that you compare him to Bush, who has had no appreciable accomplishment. Historians always rate Truman in the top ten, and have a very unfavorable opinion of the current president.

Let's see:
1) Our economy is beat to shit due to the combination of three tax cuts, massive overspending on the military, horrible budget and trade deficit management.
2) Our standing in the world has taken a hit, due to the above and the lack of a real advancement with regards to the threats from North Korea, Iran, and of course Iraq and Iran.

The latest amusement this week was the announcement that he was lifting a ban on off-shore drilling, as if this could somehow, through some miracle, lower the price of gas at the pump. So, I have high confidence that history will see him as a total loser
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      07-16-2008, 05:58 AM   #61
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I told McCain to act his age;

he died.
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      07-16-2008, 06:01 AM   #62
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Truman presided over an era that included two wars (three if you count the cold war), the resurgence of American economic power, and the establishment of NATO. I find it interesting that you compare him to Bush, who has had no appreciable accomplishment. Historians always rate Truman in the top ten, and have a very unfavorable opinion of the current president.
Truman left office with a popular approval rating similar to that of the President's today. He, like the current president presided over an unpopular war that was later seen as not only a necessary but a moral struggle. Truman is appreciated because he recognized the threat that communism posed and took actions to meet the threat. Bush has similarly done the same with Islamism. FWIW, the US slipped into recession as Truman left office.

Quote:
1) Our economy is beat to shit due to the combination of three tax cuts, massive overspending on the military, horrible budget and trade deficit management.
Our economy is slowing but it is by no means "beat to shit." We currently spend a fraction of what we did under Truman for defense. During the Korean War we were spending approx. 14% of our GDP on defense compared to 4% today. Our budget deficit is not outside historical norms.

Quote:
2) Our standing in the world has taken a hit, due to the above and the lack of a real advancement with regards to the threats from North Korea, Iran, and of course Iraq and Iran.
I do not know how you measure our "our standing in the world" but if I look at governments around the world I see governments with greater pro-US tendencies in Germany, France, Italy, Canada, South Korea, as well as Iraq and Afghanistan since 2000.

Quote:
The latest amusement this week was the announcement that he was lifting a ban on off-shore drilling, as if this could somehow, through some miracle, lower the price of gas at the pump. So, I have high confidence that history will see him as a total loser
The price of crude dropped $9 a barrel on the day the President made that announcement, coincidence? The responsible thing to do 10 years ago was to open up ANWR and the outer continental shelf to exploration and drilling. Had we done so there would be 2-4 million barrels a day available that is not right now. That would have resulted in significantly lower prices. Delaying any further is irresponsible and foolish.

As for history, we shall see.
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      07-16-2008, 07:05 AM   #63
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Truman left office with a popular approval rating similar to that of the President's today. He, like the current president presided over an unpopular war that was later seen as not only a necessary but a moral struggle. Truman is appreciated because he recognized the threat that communism posed and took actions to meet the threat. Bush has similarly done the same with Islamism. FWIW, the US slipped into recession as Truman left office.



Our economy is slowing but it is by no means "beat to shit." We currently spend a fraction of what we did under Truman for defense. During the Korean War we were spending approx. 14% of our GDP on defense compared to 4% today. Our budget deficit is not outside historical norms.



I do not know how you measure our "our standing in the world" but if I look at governments around the world I see governments with greater pro-US tendencies in Germany, France, Italy, Canada, South Korea, as well as Iraq and Afghanistan since 2000.



The price of crude dropped $9 a barrel on the day the President made that announcement, coincidence? The responsible thing to do 10 years ago was to open up ANWR and the outer continental shelf to exploration and drilling. Had we done so there would be 2-4 million barrels a day available that is not right now. That would have resulted in significantly lower prices. Delaying any further is irresponsible and foolish.

As for history, we shall see.
WOW, where do you live??????????????
Not the USA, for sure...
Bush contribution (just the beginning, just a few):
- job losses
- $4 gas
- ~10% inflation
- higher unemployment daily
- people pulling money even from banks -- dead spending
- war with no end
- breaking 5000 deaths in the war with no end
- complete partisan division
- world nas absolutely no respect for the USA
- Debt, debt, debt -- more than doubled in 8 years....

and so much more, and so much more to come on the horizon...
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      07-16-2008, 08:04 AM   #64
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http://sendables.jibjab.com/sendable...n#/teaser/1191

Not sure if repost...
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      07-16-2008, 08:11 AM   #65
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From today's Washington Post:
The Iron Timetable
Whether the war in Iraq is being lost or won, Barack Obama's strategy remains unchanged.

Wednesday, July 16, 2008; A16

BARACK OBAMA yesterday accused President Bush and Sen. John McCain of rigidity on Iraq: "They said we couldn't leave when violence was up, they say we can't leave when violence is down." Mr. Obama then confirmed his own foolish consistency. Early last year, when the war was at its peak, the Democratic candidate proposed a timetable for withdrawing all U.S. combat forces in slightly more than a year. Yesterday, with bloodshed at its lowest level since the war began, Mr. Obama endorsed the same plan. After hinting earlier this month that he might "refine" his Iraq strategy after visiting the country and listening to commanders, Mr. Obama appears to have decided that sticking to his arbitrary, 16-month timetable is more important than adjusting to the dramatic changes in Iraq...
I cannot imagine the Post would endorse McCain but this editorial indicates they are having a more difficult time making their normal Democrat endorsement.

Read the whole thing.
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      07-16-2008, 10:05 AM   #66
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Quote:
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Truman left office with a popular approval rating similar to that of the President's today. He, like the current president presided over an unpopular war that was later seen as not only a necessary but a moral struggle. Truman is appreciated because he recognized the threat that communism posed and took actions to meet the threat. Bush has similarly done the same with Islamism. FWIW, the US slipped into recession as Truman left office.
My point is that Truman went beyond acts and actually made accomplishments:
1) Ending WWII
2) United Nations / Establishment of Israel
3) Reconversion from war to peaceful economy
4) Strong military responses to N. Korea, China, Soviet Union (e.g., Korean War, Taiwan intervention, Berlin airlift)

Quote:
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Our economy is slowing but it is by no means "beat to shit." We currently spend a fraction of what we did under Truman for defense. During the Korean War we were spending approx. 14% of our GDP on defense compared to 4% today. Our budget deficit is not outside historical norms.
Our budget deficit is at $9 trillion, with potentially another $5 trillion to add on if taxpayers have to bail out both Freddie Mac and Ginnie Mae. How is this not outside historical norms?? It is directly affecting the weakening of the dollar and the high prices of all commodities.

1) Inflation made it's highest monthly jump in 26 years.
2) Dollar is at all-time low vs Euro
3) Adjusted for CPI, Dow is at 1982 levels.
4) Housing market is in shambles and not due to recover until at least 2009
5) Commodities at all-time highs

Did you live through the Great Depression?

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I do not know how you measure our "our standing in the world" but if I look at governments around the world I see governments with greater pro-US tendencies in Germany, France, Italy, Canada, South Korea, as well as Iraq and Afghanistan since 2000.
This is completely wrong. Due to foreign policy, we've alienated our most vocal proponent (UK) as well as France, Spain, Russia. We won't even get into the Middle East. http://pewglobal.org/reports/display.php?ReportID=252

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Originally Posted by ganeil View Post
The price of crude dropped $9 a barrel on the day the President made that announcement, coincidence? The responsible thing to do 10 years ago was to open up ANWR and the outer continental shelf to exploration and drilling. Had we done so there would be 2-4 million barrels a day available that is not right now. That would have resulted in significantly lower prices. Delaying any further is irresponsible and foolish.

As for history, we shall see.
Maybe you were too busy watching the reruns of the President speaking to notice that Ben Bernanke testified before Congress, indicating that the US faces significant growth risks. Also, it might have helped that OPEC lowered their oil-demand forecast on the same day. The drop in oil was also attributed to longs taking profits.

Today's drop is due to higher EIA inventories than expected. Supply and demand. Not politics.
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