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      07-12-2008, 03:29 PM   #45
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I am glad I now have some free time to surf again....


Japanese car companies have long "underrated" power. Look at the older generations of Mitsus and Scubby's. There was some convention for these guys to keep under 300hp for some strange reason.

Also, I believe you can use SAE certification to underrate an engine's performance by making certifying an engine's performance at an RPM below peak power. So long as an engine can deliver x hp at y rpm, it is immaterial that the engine can actually do more.

I don't know why the Japanese car companies do it but this is long been discussed.
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      07-12-2008, 03:34 PM   #46
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You are genuinely funny. The M models have not been improved in 20 years. What a joke, are you for real? Sure the brand is evolving and you just can not buy a car like the E30 M3 today. Please tell me that EVERY M3 version has not been the absolute darling of the press and of a great many enthusiasts as well. This is particularly hilarious for you to be buying a car that you think has not improved in 20 years. Consistency, credibility?
Ask anyone who has had the pleasure of driving an E30 M3 before saying my credibility is gone. The E30 M3 is in a league of it's own in everyway that is important, I also disagree that M3s have improved with every version, the E30 with the best followed by the E36 and the E92, the rest you keep the rest as far as I'm concerned.

Please swamp, ask others before commenting on something you don't know about.
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      07-12-2008, 09:09 PM   #47
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      07-12-2008, 09:20 PM   #48
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Originally Posted by footie View Post
Ask anyone who has had the pleasure of driving an E30 M3 before saying my credibility is gone. The E30 M3 is in a league of it's own in everyway that is important, I also disagree that M3s have improved with every version, the E30 with the best followed by the E36 and the E92, the rest you keep the rest as far as I'm concerned.

Please swamp, ask others before commenting on something you don't know about.

I think my friend Swamp is taking issue with your comment that there has been no innovation by BMW M vs. cough Porsche, MB, Nissan, Audi.

The E30M3 definitely set a high bar but by every performance metric each generation of M3 was faster. Having a favorite in the E30 is just that, it was your personal favorite.

My favorite 911 is still the 993 but the 996 and 997 are faster.

BMW innovated with awesome powerplants like the E36M3 Evo2 engine, the S54 was the best 6 banger, the V10, and now the V8....
  • Porsche innovated with watercooling
  • Audi innovated with a horrific power sucking drivetrain like Quattro
  • The Nissan GTR is nice
  • The new Mercedes are nice
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      07-13-2008, 12:40 AM   #49
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footie, gbb:

Look guys, calm down, I don't think the M3 is faster or a better sports car than the GT3, GT-R or Z06 for that matter. The M3 is all about a lot of compromise and it has gone a long way from its original roots as a very track focused production car. You can take magazine tests with a grain of salt or not. We all tend to praise the tests we agree with and minimize the ones we do not agree with. The facts remain that as an ALL AROUND and everyday driver the M3 has unseated some very mighty vehicles and not just in the US. It has done so not because of its raw performance numbers but because of its combination of good manners while still being very fun and rewarding to a skilled driver, while also offering "the finest V8 outside of Maranello". Footie: do recall a German magazine gave the title to the M3 over the GT3 as well (or was it over the 997TT?). Lastly I am not much of an R8 fan at all. The M3 is absolutely neck and neck with it pure performance wise on all but a few select tracks. Not to mention that is gets completely hosed when you factor in price to performance... Those are the facts of M3 vs. R8.

One more "lastly", I guess: gbb: It all comes down to what you consider competitors. As I have stated a million times I don't consider the Z06 and GT-R to be M3 competitors, if YOU do then the M3 is clearly not the fastest in class. However, among the RS4, C63 AMG, IS-F and some various Astons and Jags, I consider the M3 best in class, as does the vast majority of the motoring press.
The fact that the R8, GT3, or 997TT are not a "all around everyday car" and are priced completely in a different level makes the comparison a joke. Since when did the R8 got hosed by the M3 in performance, price yes. But that's like saying the same thing when you compare the Vette against the M3, would you say the M3 gets completely hosed when you factor in price to performance, i think not. Actually, i'm sure you wouldn't and we all know exactly why. The same reason why you criticized me for posting the ZR1 Ring Time and not this one.
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      07-13-2008, 01:14 AM   #50
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I think my friend Swamp is taking issue with your comment that there has been no innovation by BMW M vs. cough Porsche, MB, Nissan, Audi.

The E30M3 definitely set a high bar but by every performance metric each generation of M3 was faster. Having a favorite in the E30 is just that, it was your personal favorite.

My favorite 911 is still the 993 but the 996 and 997 are faster.

BMW innovated with awesome powerplants like the E36M3 Evo2 engine, the S54 was the best 6 banger, the V10, and now the V8....
  • Porsche innovated with watercooling
  • Audi innovated with a horrific power sucking drivetrain like Quattro
  • The Nissan GTR is nice
  • The new Mercedes are nice
There is lots of things the E30 M3 did better than all other M3s, sure it wasn't the quickest but if that is how swamp or yourself rate success than both of you are more shallow than I first thought. The steering in the E30 was better than an M3 since and by a long way, in fact I would personally rate it among the best steering of any car. The balance of it's chassis was also in a different league to the others, agains sure all others could grip longer and harder but that was more to do with tyres advances than anything else. No the balance was incredible in the E30 and that in most part was down to it's unusual weight balance for BMW, 48/52 front to rear instead of the usual 50/50 which meant it rear had as much grip as the front regardless of how much throttle was applied. The main, sorry the only improvement that the other have brought to the table is their engines which are true masterpieces.

You can knock Quattro all you like but the reality is that it provides more grip than rwd and it's more versatile. Whether is saps the amount of power you bleive it does is up for debate but the only thing I will agree on is it's lack of involvement and entertainment.
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      07-13-2008, 02:17 AM   #51
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You can knock Quattro all you like but the reality is that it provides more grip than rwd and it's more versatile. Whether is saps the amount of power you bleive it does is up for debate but the only thing I will agree on is it's lack of involvement and entertainment.
Agree, unless of course you are talking about the the R8's quattro system.

Like Clarkson said, you can make the R8 dance.

Powerslides in an AWD car, with ease. The car is really amazing.

From 1:10 in the video:
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      07-13-2008, 02:20 AM   #52
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I knew those french were a bunch of lying frogs!!!!!

(Renault owns Nissan)
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      07-13-2008, 04:20 AM   #53
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gbb357 View Post
Since when did the R8 got hosed by the M3 in performance, price yes. But that's like saying the same thing when you compare the Vette against the M3, would you say the M3 gets completely hosed when you factor in price to performance, i think not. Actually, i'm sure you wouldn't and we all know exactly why. The same reason why you criticized me for posting the ZR1 Ring Time and not this one.
You just can not ever get a single thing correct can you?

I never said the M3 "hoses" the R8. You are WRONG. I said they are neck and neck in most comparisons with some tracks showing the R8s prowess.

A Z06 vs. an M3 in a outright performance battle - now that is a true hose down. Does me saying something so painfully obvious really make you that happy?

You don't know squat about why I post and why I reply to anything you post, don't flatter yourself. Go spend some more time with your IS buddies on a Lexus forum talking about Audis, Vettes and GT-Rs. That is your CLEAR pleasure... Oh wait, much better to do that on a BMW forum.
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      07-13-2008, 07:14 AM   #54
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Originally Posted by swamp2 View Post
You just can not ever get a single thing correct can you?

I never said the M3 "hoses" the R8. You are WRONG. I said they are neck and neck in most comparisons with some tracks showing the R8s prowess.

A Z06 vs. an M3 in a outright performance battle - now that is a true hose down. Does me saying something so painfully obvious really make you that happy?

You don't know squat about why I post and why I reply to anything you post, don't flatter yourself. Go spend some more time with your IS buddies on a Lexus forum talking about Audis, Vettes and GT-Rs. That is your CLEAR pleasure... Oh wait, much better to do that on a BMW forum.
Sorry swamp, he is correct and highlighted in bold that you did so 'completely hosed' but in your defence your comments were directed to everthing included the price difference which I completely agree with.

For what it does the M3 is great at but it's no supercar destroyer simply because it's doesn't have the looks or class to complete with such cars.
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      07-13-2008, 10:12 AM   #55
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Quote:
Originally Posted by swamp2 View Post
You just can not ever get a single thing correct can you?

I never said the M3 "hoses" the R8. You are WRONG. I said they are neck and neck in most comparisons with some tracks showing the R8s prowess.

A Z06 vs. an M3 in a outright performance battle - now that is a true hose down. Does me saying something so painfully obvious really make you that happy?

You don't know squat about why I post and why I reply to anything you post, don't flatter yourself. Go spend some more time with your IS buddies on a Lexus forum talking about Audis, Vettes and GT-Rs. That is your CLEAR pleasure... Oh wait, much better to do that on a BMW forum.
Why don't you read your own post you moron, FYI, my buddies and I in the IS forum talk and post about M3's plenty of times.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Swamp
Look guys, calm down, I don't think the M3 is faster or a better sports car than the GT3, GT-R or Z06 for that matter. The M3 is all about a lot of compromise and it has gone a long way from its original roots as a very track focused production car. You can take magazine tests with a grain of salt or not. We all tend to praise the tests we agree with and minimize the ones we do not agree with. The facts remain that as an ALL AROUND and everyday driver the M3 has unseated some very mighty vehicles and not just in the US. It has done so not because of its raw performance numbers but because of its combination of good manners while still being very fun and rewarding to a skilled driver, while also offering "the finest V8 outside of Maranello". Footie: do recall a German magazine gave the title to the M3 over the GT3 as well (or was it over the 997TT?). Lastly I am not much of an R8 fan at all. The M3 is absolutely neck and neck with it pure performance wise on all but a few select tracks. Not to mention that is gets completely hosed when you factor in price to performance... Those are the facts of M3 vs. R8.

One more "lastly", I guess: gbb: It all comes down to what you consider competitors. As I have stated a million times I don't consider the Z06 and GT-R to be M3 competitors, if YOU do then the M3 is clearly not the fastest in class. However, among the RS4, C63 AMG, IS-F and some various Astons and Jags, I consider the M3 best in class, as does the vast majority of the motoring press.
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      07-13-2008, 11:02 AM   #56
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Quote:
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There is lots of things the E30 M3 did better than all other M3s, sure it wasn't the quickest but if that is how swamp or yourself rate success than both of you are more shallow than I first thought. The steering in the E30 was better than an M3 since and by a long way, in fact I would personally rate it among the best steering of any car. The balance of it's chassis was also in a different league to the others, agains sure all others could grip longer and harder but that was more to do with tyres advances than anything else. No the balance was incredible in the E30 and that in most part was down to it's unusual weight balance for BMW, 48/52 front to rear instead of the usual 50/50 which meant it rear had as much grip as the front regardless of how much throttle was applied. The main, sorry the only improvement that the other have brought to the table is their engines which are true masterpieces.

You can knock Quattro all you like but the reality is that it provides more grip than rwd and it's more versatile. Whether is saps the amount of power you bleive it does is up for debate but the only thing I will agree on is it's lack of involvement and entertainment.

Easy to fall in the love the E30 M3 but on every performance metric, braking, acceleration, cornering the E36 was better and then the E46 and then the E92.

Your personal statements about no innovation from M is just plain wrong and designed to provoke argument.

Hence my comments about Audis..... Best Audi innovation is marketing around Quattro.....where understeering into a tree is good.
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      07-13-2008, 12:06 PM   #57
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Swamp,
If the M3 had the GTR badge and the GTR had a M3 badge, you would be singing a completely different tune and so would I.
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      07-13-2008, 12:34 PM   #58
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Swamp,
If the M3 had the GTR badge and the GTR had a M3 badge, you would be singing a completely different tune and so would I.
You would praise the M3 and bash the GTR? /jk


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      07-13-2008, 01:08 PM   #59
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You would praise the M3 and bash the GTR? /jk


Best regards, south
South,

That is the difference I see between you and me. I try to be honest with myself and acknowledge my biases rather than try to deny them or defend them and ultimately hide behind them. No patronizing laughing face needed.
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      07-13-2008, 01:34 PM   #60
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Every car is a set of compromises. The current M3 provides high performance both in a straight line and through the twisties while presenting itself in a polished, desirable package. But let's revisit the compromises...

BMW trades outright performance for refinement in the M3. The Nissan GT-R has NVH insulation, a fairly nice interior, etc., etc. It's simply a different machine with a different end in mind - which is why it's different than the M3. That said, the motoring magazines are in almost unanimous agreement that the M3 outdoes the most direct competitors - the outgoing RS4, the new C63 AMG, and the IS-F. And of course there's the infamous C&D comparo... their opinions mirror my own - I too like the BALANCED compromise that BMW has struck with the M3's luxury and performance.
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      07-13-2008, 01:38 PM   #61
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South,

That is the difference I see between you and me. I try to be honest with myself and acknowledge my biases rather than try to deny them or defend them and ultimately hide behind them. No patronizing laughing face needed.
I see plenty of differences. Sense of humor is the most striking at the moment.


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      07-13-2008, 01:48 PM   #62
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Easy to fall in the love the E30 M3 but on every performance metric, braking, acceleration, cornering the E36 was better and then the E46 and then the E92.

Your personal statements about no innovation from M is just plain wrong and designed to provoke argument.

Hence my comments about Audis..... Best Audi innovation is marketing around Quattro.....where understeering into a tree is good.
TB,

You are missing my point about the E30, sure the more recent models since it have got quicker, grip harder and brake better but all of these things are down to the technology of more advanced engine designs, better braking systems and greatly improved tyre compounds than actual imprvements is chassis design. It's the other thing that are missing that made the E30 such a enjoy and the others (including the E92) less so. You also have to remember that unlike all other M3 models, the E30 was is limited homologation run for racing, it was basically a racer for the road and that was felt in it's steering and chassis balance.

Think about what I originally said, BMW has for the last twenty years been chasing their tail, trying to get back the thing that made the E30 great, it's driver involvement and incredible finesse. In comparison Audi and Mercedes had only one way to go which was up, their replacement versions have always improved the breed, but the same can't be said for the M3 or the M5. Quicker does not necessarily mean better.

P.S.
Quattro is not the devil you make out TB, it has lots of merits both on and off the track, the difference is that it's nowhere near as enjoyable but it's devilishly quick all the same.
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      07-13-2008, 01:57 PM   #63
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TB,

You are missing my point about the E30, sure the more recent models since it have got quicker, grip harder and brake better but all of these things are down to the technology of more advanced engine designs, better braking systems and greatly improved tyre compounds than actual imprvements is chassis design. It's the other thing that are missing that made the E30 such a enjoy and the others (including the E92) less so. You also have to remember that unlike all other M3 models, the E30 was is limited homologation run for racing, it was basically a racer for the road and that was felt in it's steering and chassis balance.

Think about what I originally said, BMW has for the last twenty years been chasing their tail, trying to get back the thing that made the E30 great, it's driver involvement and incredible finesse. In comparison Audi and Mercedes had only one way to go which was up, their replacement versions have always improved the breed, but the same can't be said for the M3 or the M5. Quicker does not necessarily mean better.

P.S.
Quattro is not the devil you make out TB, it has lots of merits both on and off the track, the difference is that it's nowhere near as enjoyable but it's devilishly quick all the same.

The E30 is so good largely because of the weight. This is a whole different era....like sex without condoms.

Cars are roomier and safer now....can't go backwards.

What would you pick saftey + weight or a lighter car for the street?

Also the E30 had primitive rear suspension.
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      07-13-2008, 02:30 PM   #64
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Why don't you read your own post you moron, FYI, my buddies and I in the IS forum talk and post about M3's plenty of times.
Context, context, you can only handle one word at a time I see. Let me be clear for you since it is likely everyone got it except you.

Performance wise the M3 and R8 and neck and neck. Some contest in some test go to each car. Look at our database and look at the tests. They are certainly close enough in straight line performance that it is a drivers race. On some tracks the R8 can out handle the M3.

When you factor in the absurd price of the R8, in my opinion as an overall price to performance value the M3 does indeed HOSE the R8. There can't be all that much disagreement on this topic.
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      07-13-2008, 02:31 PM   #65
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Easy to fall in the love the E30 M3 but on every performance metric, braking, acceleration, cornering the E36 was better and then the E46 and then the E92.
+30, exactly. Nostalgia in the place of real advancement.
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      07-13-2008, 03:24 PM   #66
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The GT-R is obviously the E92 M3's direct competition. Two door coupe with four seats and similar price point... anyone? Those who deny it are deluding themselves or scared. The GT-R is simply a super car performance bargain.

Love the R8, difficult not to. A mid engine beauty with performance to boot. However, when compared to the M3, the car is expensive. Yet, it is selling very well due to limited production and the panache factor. Panache is very important to sports car aficionados and can be a very expensive desire indeed. The M3 performs almost as well in spite of it's higher mass and front engine design. It also has a slightly better motor which is saying something considering the greatness of Audi's 4.2 litre.
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