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      07-07-2008, 07:41 PM   #67
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Who in the history of the world attacked the US? and don't tell me terrorists attacks. thats not a full scale war.
I believe the British burned Washington D.C. and the Japanese bombed Pearl Harbor.
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      07-07-2008, 07:44 PM   #68
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I believe the British burned Washington D.C. and the Japanese bombed Pearl Harbor.
We weren't attacked by Britain though. The War of 1812 was caused by impressment, British refusal to leave the forts in the U.S, and Britain preventing the U.S from trading with France among other issues.
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      07-07-2008, 07:47 PM   #69
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We weren't attacked by Britain though. The War of 1812 was caused by impressment, British refusal to leave the forts in the U.S, and Britain preventing the U.S from trading with France among other issues.
I thought he was looking for attacks on the US. Invading and burning the capital city surely qualifies, doesn't it?
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      07-07-2008, 07:49 PM   #70
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I thought he was looking for attacks on the US. Invading and burning the capital city surely qualifies, doesn't it?
When he responded to me, I was saying we shouldn't go to war unless we were attacked first where then he claimed we were never attacked first. Though I do believe the War of 1812 was justified.
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      07-07-2008, 07:57 PM   #71
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Japan, Bin Laden, Germany in WWI( indirectly through unrestricted submarine warfare attacking merchant vessels), and the alleged attack on the USS Maine by Spain( though it turned out that a boiler exploded), and Embassy bombings( though is that connected to Bin Laden?).
I don't think you get the point.

The OP posted about wars where the US deployed troops, tanks, aircrafts, bombarded land etc....it's called WAR...not terrorism.

So a few ships got sunk in WW2 and you call that a homeland invasion of the US?

Again, who in the history of the world directly attacked US homeland at a full scale war?
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      07-07-2008, 08:01 PM   #72
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You don't have to be attacked to have justifiable war. Case in point:

What Thomas Jefferson learned from the Muslim book of jihad

Democrat Keith Ellison is now officially the first Muslim United States congressman. True to his pledge, he placed his hand on the Quran, the Muslim book of jihad and pledged his allegiance to the United States during his ceremonial swearing-in.

Capitol Hill staff said Ellison's swearing-in photo opportunity drew more media than they had ever seen in the history of the U.S. House. Ellison represents the 5th Congressional District of Minnesota.

The Quran Ellison used was no ordinary book. It once belonged to Thomas Jefferson, third president of the United States and one of America's founding fathers. Ellison borrowed it from the Rare Book Section of the Library of Congress. It was one of the 6,500 Jefferson books archived in the library.

Ellison, who was born in Detroit and converted to Islam while in college, said he chose to use Jefferson's Quran because it showed that "a visionary like Jefferson" believed that wisdom could be gleaned from many sources.

There is no doubt Ellison was right about Jefferson believing wisdom could be "gleaned" from the Muslim Quran. At the time Jefferson owned the book, he needed to know everything possible about Muslims because he was about to advocate war against the Islamic "Barbary" states of Morocco, Algeria, Tunisia and Tripoli.

Ellison's use of Jefferson's Quran as a prop illuminates a subject once well-known in the history of the United States, but, which today, is mostly forgotten - the Muslim pirate slavers who over many centuries enslaved millions of Africans and tens of thousands of Christian Europeans and Americans in the Islamic "Barbary" states.

Over the course of 10 centuries, Muslim pirates cruised the African and Mediterranean coastline, pillaging villages and seizing slaves.

The taking of slaves in pre-dawn raids on unsuspecting coastal villages had a high casualty rate. It was typical of Muslim raiders to kill off as many of the "non-Muslim" older men and women as possible so the preferred "booty" of only young women and children could be collected.

Young non-Muslim women were targeted because of their value as concubines in Islamic markets. Islamic law provides for the sexual interests of Muslim men by allowing them to take as many as four wives at one time and to have as many concubines as their fortunes allow.

Boys, as young as 9 or 10 years old, were often mutilated to create eunuchs who would bring higher prices in the slave markets of the Middle East. Muslim slave traders created "eunuch stations" along major African slave routes so the necessary surgery could be performed. It was estimated that only a small number of the boys subjected to the mutilation survived after the surgery.

When American colonists rebelled against British rule in 1776, American merchant ships lost Royal Navy protection. With no American Navy for protection, American ships were attacked and their Christian crews enslaved by Muslim pirates operating under the control of the "Dey of Algiers"--an Islamist warlord ruling Algeria.

Because American commerce in the Mediterranean was being destroyed by the pirates, the Continental Congress agreed in 1784 to negotiate treaties with the four Barbary States. Congress appointed a special commission consisting of John Adams, Thomas Jefferson, and Benjamin Franklin, to oversee the negotiations.

Lacking the ability to protect its merchant ships in the Mediterranean, the new America government tried to appease the Muslim slavers by agreeing to pay tribute and ransoms in order to retrieve seized American ships and buy the freedom of enslaved sailors.

Adams argued in favor of paying tribute as the cheapest way to get American commerce in the Mediterranean moving again. Jefferson was opposed. He believed there would be no end to the demands for tribute and wanted matters settled "through the medium of war." He proposed a league of trading nations to force an end to Muslim piracy.

In 1786, Jefferson, then the American ambassador to France, and Adams, then the American ambassador to Britain, met in London with Sidi Haji Abdul Rahman Adja, the "Dey of Algiers" ambassador to Britain.

The Americans wanted to negotiate a peace treaty based on Congress' vote to appease.

During the meeting Jefferson and Adams asked the Dey's ambassador why Muslims held so much hostility towards America, a nation with which they had no previous contacts.

In a later meeting with the American Congress, the two future presidents reported that Ambassador Sidi Haji Abdul Rahman Adja had answered that Islam "was founded on the Laws of their Prophet, that it was written in their Quran, that all nations who should not have acknowledged their authority were sinners, that it was their right and duty to make war upon them wherever they could be found, and to make slaves of all they could take as Prisoners, and that every Musselman (Muslim) who should be slain in Battle was sure to go to Paradise."

For the following 15 years, the American government paid the Muslims millions of dollars for the safe passage of American ships or the return of American hostages. The payments in ransom and tribute amounted to 20 percent of United States government annual revenues in 1800.

Not long after Jefferson's inauguration as president in 1801, he dispatched a group of frigates to defend American interests in the Mediterranean, and informed Congress.

Declaring that America was going to spend "millions for defense but not one cent for tribute," Jefferson pressed the issue by deploying American Marines and many of America's best warships to the Muslim Barbary Coast.

The USS Constitution, USS Constellation, USS Philadelphia, USS Chesapeake, USS Argus, USS Syren and USS Intrepid all saw action.

In 1805, American Marines marched across the desert from Egypt into Tripolitania, forcing the surrender of Tripoli and the freeing of all American slaves.

During the Jefferson administration, the Muslim Barbary States, crumbling as a result of intense American naval bombardment and on shore raids by Marines, finally officially agreed to abandon slavery and piracy.


Jefferson's victory over the Muslims lives on today in the Marine Hymn, with the line, "From the halls of Montezuma, to the shores of Tripoli, We fight our country's battles in the air, on land and sea."

It wasn't until 1815 that the problem was fully settled by the total defeat of all the Muslim slave trading pirates.

Jefferson had been right. The "medium of war" was the only way to put and end to the Muslim problem. Mr. Ellison was right about Jefferson. He was a "visionary" wise enough to read and learn about the enemy from their own Muslim book of jihad.
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      07-07-2008, 08:05 PM   #73
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Originally Posted by SteelTorque View Post
I don't think you get the point.

The OP posted about wars where the US deployed troops, tanks, aircrafts, bombarded land etc....it's called WAR...not terrorism.

So a few ships got sunk in WW2 and you call that a homeland invasion of the US?

Again, who in the history of the world directly attacked US homeland at a full scale war?
So then the War of 1812 does count in your case.
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      07-07-2008, 08:06 PM   #74
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So then the War of 1812 does count in your case.
I'm curious how Pearl Harbor does not??
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      07-07-2008, 08:10 PM   #75
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I'm curious how Pearl Harbor does not??
In his case it wasn't an invasion, but an attack on a US base( Hawaii wasn't a state yet as well). So there were no land troops involved. He is though stretching the facts to fit his seemingly anti-US agenda.
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      07-07-2008, 08:17 PM   #76
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So a few ships got sunk in WW2
A few ships?
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      07-07-2008, 08:18 PM   #77
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In his case it wasn't an invasion, but an attack on a US base( Hawaii wasn't a state yet as well). So there were no land troops involved. He is though stretching the facts to fit his seemingly anti-US agenda.
Stretching to the point of pointlessness. A massive air strike against a US Naval base and US Army installations on sovereign US territory is an attack on the US by any reasonable definition.
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      07-07-2008, 09:32 PM   #78
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Japan, Bin Laden, Germany in WWI( indirectly through unrestricted submarine warfare attacking merchant vessels), and the alleged attack on the USS Maine by Spain( though it turned out that a boiler exploded), and Embassy bombings( though is that connected to Bin Laden?).
How many US soldiers/civilians died in ALL of those attacks -- including the WW2???

Now, How many soldiers and civilians did we kill NOT on our territory (since no war was fought on our territory since the Civil War) since 1941?

Case closed...
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      07-07-2008, 09:48 PM   #79
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(since no war was fought on our territory since the Civil War)
This is incorrect. Though most people forget it, the Japanese occupied part of the Aleutian Islands for over a year during WWII.
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shit, if i had that kind of money id buy a gtstreet for monday, an ascari a10 for tuesday, a DBS for wednesday and id just ride jessica alba the rest of the week.
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      07-07-2008, 09:49 PM   #80
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How many US soldiers/civilians died in ALL of those attacks -- including the WW2???

Now, How many soldiers and civilians did we kill NOT on our territory (since no war was fought on our territory since the Civil War) since 1941?

Case closed...
We have the atlantic and pacific, our military might and ability to bring the fight to them and the enemies inability to get their fighting force to the U.S to thank for that. Technically in WWII we had U-Boats in U.S waters.
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      07-07-2008, 09:54 PM   #81
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How many US soldiers/civilians died in ALL of those attacks -- including the WW2???

Now, How many soldiers and civilians did we kill NOT on our territory (since no war was fought on our territory since the Civil War) since 1941?

Case closed...
It sounds like you are blaming the U.S. for being better at not getting it's people killed in war.
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      07-07-2008, 10:21 PM   #82
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I seriously hope you were sarcastic with this remark.

If you weren't, then maybe you'd like to explain how the US is "better" than other countries and we don't "deserve" to be attacked.
Where in the hell did I say that we were better than any other country?

If you misunderstood me, then I apologize for not being clear. But no, I don't want to see my country attacked by anyone, I don't believe we deserve it.

For those who want criticize the U.S. for past actions, fair enough, but if you are seriously going to try to suggest that the U.S. deserves to be attacked, or that U.S. arrogance needs to be "spanked" (whatever the hell that means), then you need to get off of your high horse and realize that you are in reality NO different than those who you hold responsible for past "atrocities" and "aggression" by your wishing of death and destruction to innocent people of this country. Unbelieveable.
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      07-07-2008, 10:24 PM   #83
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How about you go to YOUR post #40, re read that IGNORANT post, put your ass into the place where my school friend lost his innocent life (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/NATO_bo...ia_headquarter), and TRY to care a little bit more... for the attrocities we did and a piece of your and my taxpayer money did...
I didn't kill anyone, I didn't make any decisions to kill anyone. I enjoy this country and what it provides for me. Maybe you can even say that I am patriotic.

But may I ask, if you are so upset with this country, why are you still here? Just curious.

Anyway, I'm out of here. I just want to talk about cars.
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      07-08-2008, 04:28 AM   #84
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How do they not have any ability to project power? They don't have as much money as the US does, but their military is fantastic.

Explain.
you're wrong, they have money too
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      07-08-2008, 07:25 AM   #85
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I didn't kill anyone, I didn't make any decisions to kill anyone. I enjoy this country and what it provides for me. Maybe you can even say that I am patriotic.

But may I ask, if you are so upset with this country, why are you still here? Just curious.

Anyway, I'm out of here. I just want to talk about cars.
Take me with you please
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      07-08-2008, 07:27 AM   #86
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We have the atlantic and pacific, our military might and ability to bring the fight to them and the enemies inability to get their fighting force to the U.S to thank for that. Technically in WWII we had U-Boats in U.S waters.
Tecnically or not -- the world was destroyed in the WW2 -- the US lands were untouched...
The water games are different thing...US lost 500k soldiers in the WW2, USSR 20M people...a big difference...
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      07-08-2008, 07:41 AM   #87
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Tecnically or not -- the world was destroyed in the WW2 -- the US lands were untouched...
You say that like it's a bad thing. Sounds more like the way to win a war to me. Did so well they never even got to the majority of your territory. (Yes, majority - see below and above)
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Tecnically or not -- the world was destroyed in the WW2 -- the US lands were untouched...
Are you ignoring my posts on purpose or did you just miss it? There was a invasion of US land and year+ occupancy by the Japanese in WWII. It was relatively small, but it still happened and claimed the lives of thousands of soldiers.
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      07-08-2008, 07:54 AM   #88
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There is a profound lack of representation for the driving force of our "invasions". That is democracy and Free Enterprise. Both of these allow for the ultmate in personal freedom and I agree bring out both the best and sometimes worst in people. However, set this up against most of the examples of US agression being toward militaristic states that basically enslaved their people and I think the better option is apparent.
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