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      07-03-2008, 10:57 PM   #1
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e92 m3 vs e46 m3 impact on the market

Just a thought, that I'm throwing out here...

As the E92 M3 is out now, does it have just as good of an impact vs it's competitors and the rest of the market versus how the e46 did?

I think e46 kicked ass when it came out for all those years. Everyone was trying to catch up to it's performance. Now, i'm well aware of the technology that has gone in to the e92. I'm an IT guy, i love technology.. i respect the e92 m3... but with LS-F, C63, RS4 out (i know e92 won all reviews, still it out performaned maybe on track... 10% of us would actually go on the track with our M3s... and we'd do it prolly around 4 times the most in a year...

Street wise, does the m3 still kick ass just as hard as the e46 did versus it's competition????
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      07-03-2008, 11:25 PM   #2
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Horsepower wars are hitting a climax, with that said who honestly knows when it will level off. . .the new RS6 is putting out 572(?)bhp, and the new S4 is going to be a twin turbo beast, so I think the jury is still out. . .stay tuned. . .
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      07-03-2008, 11:44 PM   #3
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Quote:
Originally Posted by d3l0n View Post
Just a thought, that I'm throwing out here...

As the E92 M3 is out now, does it have just as good of an impact vs it's competitors and the rest of the market versus how the e46 did?

I think e46 kicked ass when it came out for all those years. Everyone was trying to catch up to it's performance. Now, i'm well aware of the technology that has gone in to the e92. I'm an IT guy, i love technology.. i respect the e92 m3... but with LS-F, C63, RS4 out (i know e92 won all reviews, still it out performaned maybe on track... 10% of us would actually go on the track with our M3s... and we'd do it prolly around 4 times the most in a year...

Street wise, does the m3 still kick ass just as hard as the e46 did versus it's competition????
Looking at it from today, cause that's all we have...the new M3 Kicks ass WAY harder than the E46 M did!

2001 911 Carrera 300 BHP( up to 320 BHP in 2002) / 2001 E46 M3 333BHP
2008 Carrera 325 BHP / 2008 E9x M3 415 BHP

Street wise, the M3 takes on the likes of Porsche MUCH more than the E46 did, and we ALL know, it eats up the direct competition, such as S5, RS4, C63AMG, IS-350 etc...

Also, as I've said in MANY other threads, 1, 2 and 3 year old 911 owners and 996 911 Turbo owners as well (such as myself) are moving to the M3

In 2001, we didn't have the Carrera owners selling or trading their 1, 2 or 3 year old Porsches just to get into an M!! And, it AINT JUST about the horsepower, it's the WHOLE package!! Believe that!!
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      07-04-2008, 12:09 AM   #4
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On the track also, this cars a beast.
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      07-04-2008, 12:27 AM   #5
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The M3 owns the competition, the foundation on which the M3 is built on is superior to the competitors'. The C63, RS4, or IS-F are just bad copies of the M3.
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      07-04-2008, 01:30 AM   #6
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actually, the rs4 has been out since 2006...
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      07-04-2008, 02:07 AM   #7
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Well, I believe street wise its even better.

Yes, everyone knows on the track it is 4+ seconds a lap faster than its rivals in the C&D comparo.

But unlike the E46, you can dial in the E9x M3 for street use with the M-drive. Then with one press of the M-button you have a animal.

I don't believe the other cars in the segment have this adjustment, which is one of main reasons the M3 has won 99% of the comparos.
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      07-04-2008, 03:41 AM   #8
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they are getting closer and closer. Makes it interesting for us consumers.
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      07-04-2008, 01:54 PM   #9
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PLAYON View Post
Horsepower wars are hitting a climax, with that said who honestly knows when it will level off. . .the new RS6 is putting out 572(?)bhp, and the new S4 is going to be a twin turbo beast, so I think the jury is still out. . .stay tuned. . .
Well said... this smacks of the computer "megahertz / gigahertz" wars of the late 90s / early 2000's. Flash forward to 2008 and it's no longer ONLY about clock-speed but, rather, about all-around performance. The same is ringing true for cars.

Quote:
Originally Posted by armyav8tor View Post
The M3 owns the competition, the foundation on which the M3 is built on is superior to the competitors'. The C63, RS4, or IS-F are just bad copies of the M3.
And UGLY copies at that. I saw my first IS-F on the freeway yesterday (101 near SFO) and BLECCHH!! What an uninspired car! It certainly photographs better than it looks in person.
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      07-04-2008, 04:03 PM   #10
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It depends on your perspective. I think the E9X M3 comes much closer in performance to its higher priced "competition" (e.g., Porsche, etc.) than the E46. The performance gap is definitely closing along the entire spectrum of today's cars.

By the same token, the E9X has much more (and much better) competition in the same class than the E46. The luxury sports sedan/coupe market has exploded both in terms of quantity and quality since the E46 entered the market. The new competitors are able to put up better performance numbers as compared to the E9X M3, but they still can't duplicate or best the inherent driving feel of the M3. That intangible is what has always set the M3 apart and always will IMO.
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      07-04-2008, 04:20 PM   #11
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Greater competition makes for an improved product on the M3 end. Their is a much wider variety of performance vehciles, but the same still holds today the M3 is the clear cut all around best choice in its segment, no argument, plain and simple. Whats interesting to me is how it stands up to the new direct injection Porsche or MK2. Price aside, it is truly remarkable that we can mention the M in the same breath as the P car.

On that note I'd have both.
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      07-04-2008, 05:51 PM   #12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TLud View Post
It depends on your perspective. I think the E9X M3 comes much closer in performance to its higher priced "competition" (e.g., Porsche, etc.) than the E46. The performance gap is definitely closing along the entire spectrum of today's cars.

By the same token, the E9X has much more (and much better) competition in the same class than the E46. The luxury sports sedan/coupe market has exploded both in terms of quantity and quality since the E46 entered the market. The new competitors are able to put up better performance numbers as compared to the E9X M3, but they still can't duplicate or best the inherent driving feel of the M3. That intangible is what has always set the M3 apart and always will IMO.
I agree with everything you said, up till "always will."
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      07-12-2008, 04:15 AM   #13
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Quote:
Originally Posted by arr0gant View Post
Also, as I've said in MANY other threads, 1, 2 and 3 year old 911 owners and 996 911 Turbo owners as well (such as myself) are moving to the M3
I traded in my 996 Turbo for a new M3

I've also owned 2 x 977 Carrera's, and the M3 has a much better engine note, more fun, better seats, more comfort, more luxury features, more practicality, more everything!

I've owned an E60 M5 in the past as well, so I know what I'm in for. Delivery for my new M3 is in 2 days - can't wait!!
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      07-12-2008, 08:25 AM   #14
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OP: what was the competition in 01 to the M3? Hmmm nothing apples to apples... the mags had to compare it to a vette or boxter. So it had the crown all to itself.

Now everybody has a "M version" of their mid sedan so by default the gap is smaller. The RS4\MB\09 CTSV\S5 are all stellar cars in their own right, some of them do some things better than the M3 some dont.

IMO the M3 is still the best all around sedan in this class, however not everybody will prefer the M as their first choice so Lexus\MB\Audi will get their sales simply from having a car in this segment. Maybe they like an auto, Lexus service, brand loyal, etc etc...
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      07-12-2008, 09:52 AM   #15
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Quote:
Originally Posted by arr0gant View Post
Street wise, the M3 takes on the likes of Porsche MUCH more than the E46 did, and we ALL know, it eats up the direct competition, such as S5, RS4, C63AMG, IS-350 etc...
Are you serious, you think that the M3 is so far ahead of the competition.

The IS-350 or the S5 aren't in the M3 power to weight class so can't be classed as true rivals, as for the others, well the RS4 has won a few group tests against the M3 and the C63amg as won quite a few itself. Only in the US does the M3 win everything and I have my opinions on why that is and it has nothing to do with the M3 being that much better.

It's a great car that is certainly as good as any other rival, that is it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by arr0gant View Post
Also, as I've said in MANY other threads, 1, 2 and 3 year old 911 owners and 996 911 Turbo owners as well (such as myself) are moving to the M3

In 2001, we didn't have the Carrera owners selling or trading their 1, 2 or 3 year old Porsches just to get into an M!! And, it AINT JUST about the horsepower, it's the WHOLE package!! Believe that!!
This is a case that the M3's appeal has broaden more than every before and as a complete package it does cover all bases.

P.S.
The only reason a 911 Turbo owner would consider an M3 is they can't afford the new one, plain and simple. The two cars are a world apart in class, performance, price, everything.
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      07-12-2008, 12:23 PM   #16
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Quote:
Originally Posted by trancier View Post
I traded in my 996 Turbo for a new M3

I've also owned 2 x 977 Carrera's, and the M3 has a much better engine note, more fun, better seats, more comfort, more luxury features, more practicality, more everything!

I've owned an E60 M5 in the past as well, so I know what I'm in for. Delivery for my new M3 is in 2 days - can't wait!!
Congrats on your purchase, and welcome to BMW, hope she treats you as well as Porsche did, we now know you are used to the performance bar set at the top

Quote:
Originally Posted by footie View Post
Are you serious, you think that the M3 is so far ahead of the competition.

The IS-350 or the S5 aren't in the M3 power to weight class so can't be classed as true rivals, as for the others, well the RS4 has won a few group tests against the M3 and the C63amg as won quite a few itself. Only in the US does the M3 win everything and I have my opinions on why that is and it has nothing to do with the M3 being that much better.

It's a great car that is certainly as good as any other rival, that is it.

P.S.
The only reason a 911 Turbo owner would consider an M3 is they can't afford the new one, plain and simple. The two cars are a world apart in class, performance, price, everything.
Quotes like these make it easier to understand why SWAMP likes to rip into you footie, maybe it would be better if sometimes you just didn't post....I won't even comment. If you really think that if anyone could afford it they would take a TURBO'd 911 over a NA car, you really not a lot less about drivers, enthusiasts and cars then I originally came to think.

OP: IMHO for all out horsepower I think the e46 was more of a "shock value" in that it was SO much faster than the next best 3-series, and other than Vettes, EVOs and STis there was NOTHING that was as fast for the money (sorry Mustangs, GTOs and the lot were, are and will ever be sh*t that don't count) and the M3 was definitely the only foreign upscale car like that. It just appeared to the masses as an "affordable" sports car.

But as has been somewhat said before the M3 is built basically from the ground up, and the same can't be said for its competitors (other than the Porsche of course). C63, RS4 and IS-F are all tuned versions of their lesser brothers/sisters, and that is why the reviewers can't always quantify why but they just feel like the //M is a better drivers car......
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      07-12-2008, 12:24 PM   #17
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Quote:
Originally Posted by trancier View Post
I traded in my 996 Turbo for a new M3

I've also owned 2 x 977 Carrera's, and the M3 has a much better engine note, more fun, better seats, more comfort, more luxury features, more practicality, more everything!

I've owned an E60 M5 in the past as well, so I know what I'm in for. Delivery for my new M3 is in 2 days - can't wait!!
Yup, sold my 996TT just to get a new M3!!!
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      07-12-2008, 12:41 PM   #18
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MojorisinM3 View Post
OP: what was the competition in 01 to the M3? Hmmm nothing apples to apples... the mags had to compare it to a vette or boxter. So it had the crown all to itself.

Now everybody has a "M version" of their mid sedan so by default the gap is smaller. The RS4\MB\09 CTSV\S5 are all stellar cars in their own right, some of them do some things better than the M3 some dont.



I find it odd that many of you state that the E46 ///M3 didn't have ample competition. Mercedes and Audi still had their performance variants available for which the ///M3 was compared to, and the CTS-V entered the fray in 2004 (..first appearing at the 2003 NY Auto Show). The only difference now is that that Audi has a performance coupe (..and conversely, BMW has a performance sedan..........again), and Lexus has entered the sports car market.


Quote:
Originally Posted by e46e92love View Post
But as has been somewhat said before the M3 is built basically from the ground up.....
The ///M3 has more similarities to the lower model 3-series than you assert to.

"..built basically from the ground up" is a bit of an exaggeration.
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      07-12-2008, 01:12 PM   #19
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Quote:
Originally Posted by footie View Post
Are you serious, you think that the M3 is so far ahead of the competition.

The IS-350 or the S5 aren't in the M3 power to weight class so can't be classed as true rivals, as for the others, well the RS4 has won a few group tests against the M3 and the C63amg as won quite a few itself. Only in the US does the M3 win everything and I have my opinions on why that is and it has nothing to do with the M3 being that much better.

It's a great car that is certainly as good as any other rival, that is it.



This is a case that the M3's appeal has broaden more than every before and as a complete package it does cover all bases.

P.S.
The only reason a 911 Turbo owner would consider an M3 is they can't afford the new one, plain and simple. The two cars are a world apart in class, performance, price, everything.
Uh, no sh*t! I'd for SURE take a brand new 911Turbo over an M3 if I could afford it. But, E90 M3 OVER a 996TT, unless it was a MINT 2004/2005 996TT with < 2k miles.

Now 997S on the other hand, M3 is WAY better...and $30k LESS!
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      07-12-2008, 01:25 PM   #20
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sedan_Clan View Post
I find it odd that many of you state that the E46 ///M3 didn't have ample competition. Mercedes and Audi still had their performance variants available for which the ///M3 was compared to, and the CTS-V entered the fray in 2004 (..first appearing at the 2003 NY Auto Show). The only difference now is that that Audi has a performance coupe (..and conversely, BMW has a performance sedan..........again), and Lexus has entered the sports car market.




The ///M3 has more similarities to the lower model 3-series than you assert to.

"..built basically from the ground up" is a bit of an exaggeration.
The M3 shares very little with the 3 series. The M3 is SO far from being a rebadged modified 3 series...so NO, he's NOT exaggerating about the M division building the M from the ground up.

New engine, transmision, upgraded suspension, most body panels etc...
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      07-12-2008, 02:40 PM   #21
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Quote:
Originally Posted by e46e92love View Post
Quotes like these make it easier to understand why SWAMP likes to rip into you footie, maybe it would be better if sometimes you just didn't post....I won't even comment. If you really think that if anyone could afford it they would take a TURBO'd 911 over a NA car, you really not a lot less about drivers, enthusiasts and cars then I originally came to think.
Swamp is a fanboy who believe the sun shines out of an M3's exhaust pipes. You clearly haven't driven an old E30 M3 compared to the more recent versions, if you had then you would understand where my comments where coming from. Another fanboy comment is the total disregard for Forced Induction because M cars aren't built that way, N/A engine are great but I personally don't believe that they are any better than some of the best Turbo powered units currently in production. Engines like the RS6 are miles ahead of the V10 in the M5/6 for many reasons.

Quote:
Originally Posted by e46e92love View Post
But as has been somewhat said before the M3 is built basically from the ground up, and the same can't be said for its competitors (other than the Porsche of course). C63, RS4 and IS-F are all tuned versions of their lesser brothers/sisters, and that is why the reviewers can't always quantify why but they just feel like the //M is a better drivers car......
Again you don't understand or want to understand what happens to either the IS-F, C63 or the RS4 compared to their lessen models. Quattro build they versions from the ground up and I doubt Lexus or AMG are any different, all three models follow a totally different path to the normal cars and aren't even built in the same production plants.

I respect what M-Division do to their models but I don't believe they are much different to any of the others and the M3 engine isn't any more special than the RS4 engine, the C63 engine or the IS-F, it's only different in it's approach and execution.
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      07-12-2008, 03:02 PM   #22
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Quote:
Originally Posted by arr0gant View Post
The M3 shares very little with the 3 series. The M3 is SO far from being a rebadged modified 3 series...so NO, he's NOT exaggerating about the M division building the M from the ground up.

New engine, transmision, upgraded suspension, most body panels etc...
There are just as many similarities as there are differences is my point.


Quote:
Originally Posted by footie View Post

Again you don't understand or want to understand what happens to either the IS-F, C63 or the RS4 compared to their lessen models. Quattro build they versions from the ground up and I doubt Lexus or AMG are any different, all three models follow a totally different path to the normal cars and aren't even built in the same production plants.

I respect what M-Division do to their models but I don't believe they are much different to any of the others and the M3 engine isn't any more special than the RS4 engine, the C63 engine or the IS-F, it's only different in it's approach and execution.
Well said! That is exactly my point. People act as if the other automakers don't perform just as much R&D on their performance variants. I'm pro-///M (..obviously!!!), but that doesn't mean that any less work goes into building other performance cars. What makes BMW different is their ability to craft a product that communicates.
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