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      07-01-2008, 08:49 AM   #1
armyav8tor
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MT First Test: 2008 BMW M3 DCT

Nice review on the DCT equipped M3.
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      07-01-2008, 09:12 AM   #2
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Thanks for the link!
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      07-01-2008, 09:13 AM   #3
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Nice find. I hadn't seen that.
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      07-01-2008, 09:14 AM   #4
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Nice find. I hadn't seen that.
I was about to whip out the Repost icon but for once it's actually not one. However, we do need some glue soon.
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      07-01-2008, 09:18 AM   #5
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Interesting - previous MT link was to an editor's blog. Mostly glowing remarks from this latest review too. I found this interesting:

"With the DCT, the 414-hp M3 closes the straight-line performance gap to the sturm-und-drang 451-hp Mercedes-Benz C63 AMG."

Exactly how many of us thought it would be.

Hmm, now I sware I've read this article before, but I can't remember when/where. Weird.
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      07-01-2008, 09:23 AM   #6
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Wow what a great review. I love my DCT.

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Originally Posted by mkoesel View Post
"With the DCT, the 414-hp M3 closes the straight-line performance gap to the sturm-und-drang 451-hp Mercedes-Benz C63 AMG."

Exactly how many of us thought it would be.
Then throw in a few curves and bye-bye C63. The 4000 lb car can't keep up.
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      07-01-2008, 10:26 AM   #7
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Great find, thanks for posting
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      07-01-2008, 10:33 AM   #8
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It's a good read/review and mirrored my own opinions of the system. Whether you will ever see a 9 second dead or near it time from a M-DCT is debatable because 4.1s to 60mph is about as good as you will get IMO.

Whether it's more of a scalpel than the GTR is something I would seriously doubt.
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      07-01-2008, 10:46 AM   #9
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No mention of any lag time from paddle pull until shift? Either 1) they're butts aren't sensitive enough 2) they have it but don't want to report it or 3) it's not there or just not as bad as some reviewers have been saying.
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      07-01-2008, 10:55 AM   #10
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I love my DCT. Can't wait for the 1200 service so I don't have to let up at 5.5k....
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      07-01-2008, 10:58 AM   #11
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thanks johnny...good one!
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      07-01-2008, 10:59 AM   #12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ersin View Post
No mention of any lag time from paddle pull until shift? Either 1) they're butts aren't sensitive enough 2) they have it but don't want to report it or 3) it's not there or just not as bad as some reviewers have been saying.
Maybe that is the reason why MT is faster in 30 to 40 mph against the DCT. I can't wait to drive it this Saturday in Europe but running it in break-in mode.
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      07-01-2008, 01:23 PM   #13
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Nice read. Very typical the first "reviews" come out poor then we get the .

Comments:
  • Just as I predicted so long ago, M-DCT is neck and neck (drivers race) with the most serious competitor, C63 AMG.
  • Amazing 0-100 time, 9.7s
  • They have the wrong torque and redline figures (likely typos)
  • I have updated the performance "database"
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You may be a confirmed stick and clutch-pedal guy. You may think dual-clutch transmissions, which add paddles and subtract a pedal, take the skill, the challenge, the fun out of driving, and have no place in a performance car. You haven't driven the BMW M3 DCT.
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The M3 DCT sprints from corner to corner in a single, electric surge. You're always in the right gear
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The DCT transmission takes the M3, already BMW's best, most rounded performance car, to a new level. This time, the F1-style paddle-shifters and lack of a clutch pedal are not just gimmicks -- they are the real deal, helping you to go faster, smoother, easier, on any given road or track you care to take on. Call it the racer's edge.
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      07-01-2008, 01:44 PM   #14
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Quote:
Originally Posted by swamp2 View Post
Nice read. Very typical the first "reviews" come out poor then we get the .

Comments:
  • Just as I predicted so long ago, M-DCT is neck and neck (drivers race) with the most serious competitor, C63 AMG.
  • Amazing 0-100 time, 9.7s
  • They have the wrong torque and redline figures (likely typos)
  • I have updated the performance "database"
Favorite quotes:
Torque : 270....LOL
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      07-01-2008, 03:22 PM   #15
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Nice find - thanks!

Damn, now I'm back to thinking of paying for DCT (DKG). Yet C&D were not so glowing ("M DCT is no doubt a technical marvel, but we don’t yet prefer it to a traditional manual."); the reviews for this tranny are all over the place like a dog's breakfast!
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      07-01-2008, 03:30 PM   #16
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ersin View Post
No mention of any lag time from paddle pull until shift? Either 1) they're butts aren't sensitive enough 2) they have it but don't want to report it or 3) it's not there or just not as bad as some reviewers have been saying.
there is lag time period....car starts and completes shift after the clicker returns to normal position(i.e. depress clicker, let go clicker, very short wait, then car shifts) every single time. i've tested this many times and no matter what your throttle is, this is the case. annoying in the least, but you kinda get used to it...kinda.

also, significant delay from stop to go in automatic mode, no matter how hard you press the accelerator and even in sport plus setting(i.e. floor accelerator, hear click of accelerator hitting the floordboard, very short wait, wheels spin and car then goes). this is more annoying to me. less evident in manual mode.

overall, still like dct. really hope software update fixes these annoying issues.
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      07-01-2008, 03:51 PM   #17
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Tell me guys (the ones which hate this lag on start-off), do you find that the M-DCT behaves similar to a good automatic in this or something totally different. I know my time was brief but in that time I felt that in D mode the DCT behaved like an automatic from either a Merc or Jag or any other quality manufacturer you care to mention.

The whole objective of D-mode is to mimic an automatic and with this delay on take-off it's got it just right.

Again the delay of shift is way over stated, I say try some other systems before dissing the M-DCT because I know I have driven quite a few and none have been as good as the M-DCT. Maybe Ferrari has it's new F430 Scud performing this exercise better but then it should do when you consider the cost difference.

By all means knock the involvement differences between DCT and manual but as for the rest it's as good as you get.
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      07-01-2008, 04:07 PM   #18
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Quote:
Originally Posted by footie View Post
It's a good read/review and mirrored my own opinions of the system. Whether you will ever see a 9 second dead or near it time from a M-DCT is debatable because 4.1s to 60mph is about as good as you will get IMO.

Whether it's more of a scalpel than the GTR is something I would seriously doubt.
Agreed but I will say it again, the average driver may see a 6MT 0-60 time range from lets say 4.3 sec on the low end and as high as 5.5 sec or even 6.0sec on the high. Given that the shifts and especially the launch needs to be executed perfectly to achieve the best results. The average joe may pull off the perfect launch 1 out of every 5 times.

In my mind, one of the main benefits of DCT is being able to pull off the perfect launch, the perfect downshift into a corner, the perfect upshift out of a corner every single time, and do so very quickly. While the guy in the 6MT next to you may have a lucky day 1 out of every 5 times. In a DCT equiped car you can be confident that you will hit between a 4.1sec and 4.3sec 0-60 time every single time by just holding your foot on the big pedal.

While we all look at 1/4mi times reported by magazines and have dreams of achieving similar times, the reality is that most of us wont, especially in a 6MT. Achieving a great launch with manual tranny is very hard and equally frustrating and only gets worse the more power you try to put down. I think this is something that is overally ignored in these 6MT vs. DCT discussions.

If you have never been to a 1/4mi track or never raced then prepare for a shock when you go to the track for the first time. Tenths of seconds add up quick for the novice track goer and you would be surprised how few mistakes you can make to add a full second onto a 1/4mi pass while rowing through the gears. I was both shocked and depressed the first few times I blasted down the quarter in my, at the time, new E36 M3. There is no coincidence that straight line combat is usually best executed in auto tranny equiped vehicles where the chance for driver error is significantly reduced. DCT is the future....

Sorry for the rant...

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      07-01-2008, 04:13 PM   #19
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Quote:
Originally Posted by footie View Post
Tell me guys (the ones which hate this lag on start-off), do you find that the M-DCT behaves similar to a good automatic in this or something totally different. I know my time was brief but in that time I felt that in D mode the DCT behaved like an automatic from either a Merc or Jag or any other quality manufacturer you care to mention.

The whole objective of D-mode is to mimic an automatic and with this delay on take-off it's got it just right.

Again the delay of shift is way over stated, I say try some other systems before dissing the M-DCT because I know I have driven quite a few and none have been as good as the M-DCT. Maybe Ferrari has it's new F430 Scud performing this exercise better but then it should do when you consider the cost difference.

By all means knock the involvement differences between DCT and manual but as for the rest it's as good as you get.
the difference between full auto and dct(d mode) is that when you step on it from stop in an auto, it appears to react..albeit slower, there is at least some instant response. dct on the other hand...when you really want to start quickly(as if trying to cross roads with fast traffic) and you gun it, there is a slight wait bf the car does anything at all. although this wait is short, this is what annoys me the most. for anyone that doubts this..go get your dct car, put it in any "d" mode, and floor the throttle(this is an extreme condition but it demonstrates the point). car will not budge until after the pedal hits the floorboard + a very short wait time. i'm use to driving an e46 m3 in sport mode all the time, so I'm conditioned to instant throttle response. like i said, still like dct..just takes some getting used to and it may just be a software issue.
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      07-01-2008, 04:24 PM   #20
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Quote:
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the difference between full auto and dct(d mode) is that when you step on it from stop in an auto, it appears to react..albeit slower, there is at least some instant response. dct on the other hand...when you really want to start quickly(as if trying to cross roads with fast traffic) and you gun it, there is a slight wait bf the car does anything at all. although this wait is short, this is what annoys me the most. for anyone that doubts this..go get your dct car, put it in any "d" mode, and floor the throttle(this is an extreme condition but it demonstrates the point). car will not budge until after the pedal hits the floorboard + a very short wait time. i'm use to driving an e46 m3 in sport mode all the time, so I'm conditioned to instant throttle response. like i said, still like dct..just takes some getting used to and it may just be a software issue.
I was never able to replicate any "lag" when I drove Swamps car and I even tried to induce this kind of situation. I can understand the computer taking time to understand inputs if you take the pedal all the way to the floor. However, I question the need for all 414 horses at basically a standstill while crossing lanes. In my mind that would create another situation in which you sit there and smoke the tires while waiting to move.... or you simply rotate the car and end up accelerating in the wrong direction (I saw a Mustang do this once). However, as stated previously, I have yet to replicate this. Maybe I will get my car to do this when it comes in next week...

Footie I believe I read that you were also unable to replicate any "lag" in the throttle response....

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      07-01-2008, 04:42 PM   #21
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JEllis View Post
I was never able to replicate any "lag" when I drove Swamps car and I even tried to induce this kind of situation. I can understand the computer taking time to understand inputs if you take the pedal all the way to the floor. However, I question the need for all 414 horses at basically a standstill while crossing lanes. In my mind that would create another situation in which you sit there and smoke the tires while waiting to move.... or you simply rotate the car and end up accelerating in the wrong direction (I saw a Mustang do this once). However, as stated previously, I have yet to replicate this. Maybe I will get my car to do this when it comes in next week...

Footie I believe I read that you were also unable to replicate any "lag" in the throttle response....

Jason
414hp is never available at a standstill or at any low rpm, but either way, like i said, an extreme case, but just demonstrating the point.....i have been in situations where i am crossing traffic and the car just doesn't budge when i want it to...it makes me think twice every single time before crossing in this car, whereas in other cars, its wasn't even a forethought. the lag is without a question definitely there(i own the car and drive it every single day)...whether it bugs you or not depends on how you drive and what you're accustomed to driving.
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      07-01-2008, 04:46 PM   #22
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ajj View Post
the difference between full auto and dct(d mode) is that when you step on it from stop in an auto, it appears to react..albeit slower, there is at least some instant response. dct on the other hand...when you really want to start quickly(as if trying to cross roads with fast traffic) and you gun it, there is a slight wait bf the car does anything at all. although this wait is short, this is what annoys me the most. for anyone that doubts this..go get your dct car, put it in any "d" mode, and floor the throttle(this is an extreme condition but it demonstrates the point).
Well, I guess that this is probably due to the fact that, at a stand still, the DCT will have the clutch (both clutches) open and be awaiting your input. When you hit the gas it will have to feather the clutch appropriately for a smooth take off. For a true auto, there is no clutch to open or close obviously and no mechanical linkage at all - its just a torque converter that allows the car to idle as long the engine is below stall speed. As soon as revs rise, you're off.

And in a manual, in a situation like this, you might have the car revved up a bit and begin letting the clutch out very close to the point of engagement even before you are ready to pull away. The DCT cannot do this since it would mean it would have to know that you are going for a quick take off. Otherwise launches would be jerky in general. The closest M-DCT can come I suppose is Launch Control but that will not be something you use in a case like this typically.

Quote:
car will not budge until after the pedal hits the floorboard + a very short wait time.
Now that seems pretty nuts to me. How can the car require you push the pedal that far? It seems to me it should be able to go as long as you've got RPM high enough and it has had a chance to let out the clutch in an appropriate fashion. If its really that bad then sounds like some conservative software indeed. I just hope its something that can be fixed and not something they did purely to increase clutch life at the expense of driveability, because if that's the case then I don't know they will be eager to change it.
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