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      06-29-2008, 05:28 PM   #1
SteelTorque
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Germany & World War II

Lately, after playing Company of Heroes for PC, like crazy, I seem to have developed a passion for the military aspect of wars, and especially WWII.

So I keep reading like a maniac, about tanks, guns, infantry etc.

The more I read the more I think: "Germany owned!" Tigers, Panthers and Flak 88mm FTW!

I am talking STRICTLY MILITARY! War atrocities are a different subject.

Anyone else into military combat, weaponry etc?
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      06-29-2008, 05:31 PM   #2
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The more I read the more I think: "Germany owned!"
you missed a word - Germany GOT owned.

US military owns too, but for some reason they keep getting owned by IED's and other shit.

Just like Germany, US did not learn from own and/or somebody else's mistakes - Even though they destroy enemy's military, fighting a partisan war is an uphill battle that is rarely won.
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      06-29-2008, 05:50 PM   #3
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you missed a word - Germany GOT owned.

US military owns too, but for some reason they keep getting owned by IED's and other shit.

Just like Germany, US did not learn from own and/or somebody else's mistakes - Even though they destroy enemy's military, fighting a partisan war is an uphill battle that is rarely won.
You missed my point! I never said they won the war.

All I was saying is that they seemed much better prepared, disciplined, trained and a lot of the times technologycally advanced than the US, soviets and UK.

I'm by far not an expert in WW2, but the soviets were a much larger part of the war than the US. They were the ones who were almost destroyed by the Germans and eventually pushed back, entered Berlin and did most of the dirty work that pushed the germans to surrender.
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      06-29-2008, 05:54 PM   #4
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You missed my point! I never said they won the war.

All I was saying is that they seemed much better prepared, disciplined, trained and a lot of the times technologycally advanced than the US, soviets and UK.
Definitely...
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      06-29-2008, 05:57 PM   #5
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Keeping this strictly to equipment.....

Amazing how the German philosophies about engineering still carry through to today's cars

Germany had great equipment throughout the war..very innovative......but they were way too expensive to make and too complicated to maintain.

On Land:
  • The 88mm was an awesome gun
  • If you look at the Panther tanks that came after the Tiger, it had a high velocity 75mm actually had more penetrating power than the 88mm
  • Sturmgewehr 44 - assault rifle....innovative.
  • MG42 - changed tactics of how squads fought
  • Panzershrek - improved Bazooka
  • Panzerfaust - disposable shape-charged weapons
In the Air:
  • BF109e - great plane at the start of the war
  • BF190 Fockewolfe - great plane with a BMW radial engine
  • Me163 Komet - innovative but more of a death trap
  • Me262 Jet Fighter - world's first.... Hilter messed the program by meddling and tried to make it a bomber
Don't forget the Allies:
  • The Russians had the awesome T34....sloped armor....reliable...76mm gun....built in quantity...
  • P51 Mustang - Fly escort over Berlin with the range given by the drop tanks and then outfly the fighters when called on
  • M1A1 Garand rifle - the best infantry rifle of the war
  • Ma Deuce - 50 cal GPMG
  • Spitfires and the unappreciated Hurricanes
  • And my personal favorite the F4U Corsair (which saw almost all action in the Pacific)
Definitely not going to get into any part of the death or carnage of the war but I have been a history buff for along time and the equipment all sides fielded was amazing (ignoring the fact that they were meant to kill of course)

When I did alot of the reading and research in WWII, I was just amazed at how the Americans, specifically, just turn on the engineering and manufacturing might.

I often wonder if there was some incident that would require all of America to build great cars what would happen..... Look at the Corvette....kicks German butt without really trying.
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      06-29-2008, 05:57 PM   #6
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Originally Posted by SteelTorque View Post
I'm by far not an expert in WW2, but the soviets were a much larger part of the war than the US. They were the ones who were almost destroyed by the Germans and eventually pushed back, entered Berlin and did most of the dirty work that pushed the germans to surrender.
yes, this is exactly what i am talking about. their technological advances did not matter much, except for the beginning of the war, that Russia was not even close to being prepared for. Germans HAD to be prepared for starting the war with the biggest freaking country in the world. oh, and "almost destroyed" part is a little exaggerated.
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      06-29-2008, 06:08 PM   #7
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Originally Posted by T Bone View Post
Keeping this strictly to equipment.....

Amazing how the German philosophies about engineering still carry through to today's cars

Germany had great equipment throughout the war..very innovative......but they were way too expensive to make and too complicated to maintain.

On Land:
  • The 88mm was an awesome gun
  • If you look at the Panther tanks that came after the Tiger, it had a high velocity 75mm actually had more penetrating power than the 88mm
  • Sturmgewehr 44 - assault rifle....innovative.
  • MG42 - changed tactics of how squads fought
  • Panzershrek - improved Bazooka
  • Panzerfaust - disposable shape-charged weapons
In the Air:
  • BF109e - great plane at the start of the war
  • BF190 Fockewolfe - great plane with a BMW radial engine
  • Me163 Komet - innovative but more of a death trap
  • Me262 Jet Fighter - world's first.... Hilter messed the program by meddling and tried to make it a bomber
Don't forget the Allies:
  • The Russians had the awesome T34....sloped armor....reliable...76mm gun....built in quantity...
  • P51 Mustang - Fly escort over Berlin with the range given by the drop tanks and then outfly the fighters when called on
  • M1A1 Garand rifle - the best infantry rifle of the war
  • Ma Deuce - 50 cal GPMG
  • Spitfires and the unappreciated Hurricanes
  • And my personal favorite the F4U Corsair (which saw almost all action in the Pacific)
Definitely not going to get into any part of the death or carnage of the war but I have been a history buff for along time and the equipment all sides fielded was amazing (ignoring the fact that they were meant to kill of course)

When I did alot of the reading and research in WWII, I was just amazed at how the Americans, specifically, just turn on the engineering and manufacturing might.

I often wonder if there was some incident that would require all of America to build great cars what would happen..... Look at the Corvette....kicks German butt without really trying.
Yes, the T-34 was an excellent design in the begining, however look at this example:

"On 7 July 1943, a single Tiger tank commanded by Franz Staudegger from the 2nd Platoon of 13th Panzer Company engaged a group of about 50 T-34s around Psyolknee (the southern sector of the German salient in the Battle of Kursk). Staudegger used all his ammunition in destroying 22 Soviet tanks, while the rest retreated. For this, Staudegger was awarded the Knight's Cross"


"On 8 August 1944, a single Tiger commanded by Willi Fey from the 1st Company of sSSPzAbt 102, engaged a British tank column, destroying some 14 out of 15 Shermans, followed by one more later in the day using his last two rounds of ammunition. sSSPzAbt 102 lost all of its Tigers during fighting in Normandy, but reported 227 Allied tanks destroyed in six weeks."

"Over 10 Tiger tank commanders had over 100 tank kills on their account, including: Kurt Knispel with 168 kills, Otto Carius with 150+ kills, Johannes Bölter with 139+ kills, and Michael Wittmann with 138 kills."

"the 503rd SS Heavy Panzer Battalion scored approximately 500 kills in the period from January to April 1945 on the Eastern Front, for the loss of 45 King Tigers (most of which were abandoned and destroyed by their own crews after mechanical breakdown or for lack of fuel)"

Impressive, no?
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      06-29-2008, 06:16 PM   #8
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SteelTorque View Post
Yes, the T-34 was an excellent design in the begining, however look at this example:

"On 7 July 1943, a single Tiger tank commanded by Franz Staudegger from the 2nd Platoon of 13th Panzer Company engaged a group of about 50 T-34s around Psyolknee (the southern sector of the German salient in the Battle of Kursk). Staudegger used all his ammunition in destroying 22 Soviet tanks, while the rest retreated. For this, Staudegger was awarded the Knight's Cross"


"On 8 August 1944, a single Tiger commanded by Willi Fey from the 1st Company of sSSPzAbt 102, engaged a British tank column, destroying some 14 out of 15 Shermans, followed by one more later in the day using his last two rounds of ammunition. sSSPzAbt 102 lost all of its Tigers during fighting in Normandy, but reported 227 Allied tanks destroyed in six weeks."

"Over 10 Tiger tank commanders had over 100 tank kills on their account, including: Kurt Knispel with 168 kills, Otto Carius with 150+ kills, Johannes Bölter with 139+ kills, and Michael Wittmann with 138 kills."

"the 503rd SS Heavy Panzer Battalion scored approximately 500 kills in the period from January to April 1945 on the Eastern Front, for the loss of 45 King Tigers (most of which were abandoned and destroyed by their own crews after mechanical breakdown or for lack of fuel)"

Impressive, no?

You don't read about Tigers breaking down or running out of gas....not too glam. The Tigers and King Tigers were deployed in such low quantities, it won more press wars than battles.

One of the Russians tactics was to mix right in with the German Panzers because it was hard to penetrate the Tiger / King Tiger's frontal armor....

Germany had to build the Panther to counter the T34 because they couldn't build enough Tigers. I would argue the best German tank in WW2 was the Panther.
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      06-29-2008, 06:30 PM   #9
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You don't read about Tigers breaking down or running out of gas....not too glam. The Tigers and King Tigers were deployed in such low quantities, it won more press wars than battles.

One of the Russians tactics was to mix right in with the German Panzers because it was hard to penetrate the Tiger / King Tiger's frontal armor....

Germany had to build the Panther to counter the T34 because they couldn't build enough Tigers. I would argue the best German tank in WW2 was the Panther.
The tigers and king tigers had mechanical problems, true, but they where extremely hard to destroy and could inflict massive damage before the enemy tanks could even fire at them. The US's M4 Sherman could not penetrate their front armor even at point blank.

As for the US and Soviets, they had no tanks that could match the tigers/panthers, until almost the end of the war when they deployed the M26 Pershing, that saw very little action and the Soviets came out witht the IS-2 in the Battle of Berlin.

Best tank destroyer of WW2 was the Jagdpanther.
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      06-29-2008, 06:43 PM   #10
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The tigers and king tigers had mechanical problems, true, but they where extremely hard to destroy and could inflict massive damage before the enemy tanks could even fire at them. The US's M4 Sherman could not penetrate their front armor even at point blank.

As for the US and Soviets, they had no tanks that could match the tigers/panthers, until almost the end of the war when they deployed the M26 Pershing, that saw very little action and the Soviets came out witht the IS-2 in the Battle of Berlin.

Best tank destroyer of WW2 was the Jagdpanther.

If you were a Field Marshall, would you rather have 50 Tigers or 500 T34s?
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      06-29-2008, 06:45 PM   #11
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      06-29-2008, 07:06 PM   #12
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If you were a Field Marshall, would you rather have 50 Tigers or 500 T34s?
That depends, but 50 tanks are easier to deploy, control, refuel and repair than 500 and check one of the examples that I gave earlier:

"the 503rd SS Heavy Panzer Battalion scored approximately 500 kills in the period from January to April 1945 on the Eastern Front, for the loss of 45 King Tigers (most of which were abandoned and destroyed by their own crews after mechanical breakdown or for lack of fuel)"

45 King Tigers killed 500 enemy tanks/vehicles.

Look, all I'm saying is that for a small country (compared to US and Russia) Germany kicked some serious ass, considering that they where also fighting 2-3 fronts, where already defeated once in World War I and recovered so brutal and fast...etc...
Russia and UK were fighting only one front and US same, with the exception of fighting Japan.
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      06-29-2008, 08:04 PM   #13
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That depends, but 50 tanks are easier to deploy, control, refuel and repair than 500 and check one of the examples that I gave earlier:

"the 503rd SS Heavy Panzer Battalion scored approximately 500 kills in the period from January to April 1945 on the Eastern Front, for the loss of 45 King Tigers (most of which were abandoned and destroyed by their own crews after mechanical breakdown or for lack of fuel)"

45 King Tigers killed 500 enemy tanks/vehicles.

Look, all I'm saying is that for a small country (compared to US and Russia) Germany kicked some serious ass, considering that they where also fighting 2-3 fronts, where already defeated once in World War I and recovered so brutal and fast...etc...
Russia and UK were fighting only one front and US same, with the exception of fighting Japan.

I am not going to debate the politics of the war but for your own edification, I would read a couple of the books on the topic of the Myth of the Blitzkrieg.

On the Equipment side, the Tiger and King Tiger were great tanks in a perfect world but in war, nothing is perfect.
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      06-30-2008, 10:21 AM   #14
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I am not going to debate the politics of the war but for your own edification, I would read a couple of the books on the topic of the Myth of the Blitzkrieg.

On the Equipment side, the Tiger and King Tiger were great tanks in a perfect world but in war, nothing is perfect.
Agreed.

But what do you think would have happened if Audi was involved in building machines back then?

Do you think tanks would have understeered into trees and fall into ditches?

What is your opinion on modern and WW2 Audis?
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      06-30-2008, 11:43 AM   #15
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Agreed.

But what do you think would have happened if Audi was involved in building machines back then?

Do you think tanks would have understeered into trees and fall into ditches?

What is your opinion on modern and WW2 Audis?

There is a historical link.....


The first Audi (slap on some LED light bars and it would be hard to NOT see the resemblance to the modern A4)
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      06-30-2008, 12:14 PM   #16
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      06-30-2008, 01:57 PM   #17
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Quote:
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You missed my point! I never said they won the war.

All I was saying is that they seemed much better prepared, disciplined, trained and a lot of the times technologycally advanced than the US, soviets and UK.

I'm by far not an expert in WW2, but the soviets were a much larger part of the war than the US. They were the ones who were almost destroyed by the Germans and eventually pushed back, entered Berlin and did most of the dirty work that pushed the germans to surrender.
You can have all the technical advantages in the world, but every war of the modern era has shown the winner is the one with the passion and desire to win.
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      06-30-2008, 03:03 PM   #18
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[*]BF190 Fockewolfe - great plane with a BMW radial engine
Just to correct you a litte bit.. its called the Fw190 (Focke-Wulf 190) and it was equipped with a BMW 801 engine. In 2006 i had the opportunity to take place in the Fw190A-8 Warbird, which can be visited in the Air Museum of Laatzen (near Hannover).

Here is a pic, while i was sitting in the bird:


If you are interested in military air force of WWII i can highly recommend you the flight simulation "IL-2 Sturmovik". Its featuring the Airwar from Russia, Asia, Pacific, Africa and Norway.

Quote:
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But what do you think would have happened if Audi was involved in building machines back then?
Audi was former called "Horch"

btw. Nice to read that americans are interested in WWII equipment of GERMANY...!
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      06-30-2008, 03:24 PM   #19
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Just to correct you a litte bit.. its called the Fw190 (Focke-Wulf 190) and it was equipped with a BMW 801 engine. In 2006 i had the opportunity to take place in the Fw190A-8 Warbird, which can be visited in the Air Museum of Laatzen (near Hannover).

Here is a pic, while i was sitting in the bird:

Thanks.

The Butcher's bird is one of my favorite planes. The Germans had great military equipment in WWII. V2 rocket technology led to the Saturn V and the moon.

Unforunately the equipment was tied to politics and Hitler.
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      06-30-2008, 03:42 PM   #20
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Thanks.

The Butcher's bird is one of my favorite planes. The Germans had great military equipment in WWII. V2 rocket technology led to the Saturn V and the moon.

Unforunately the equipment was tied to politics and Hitler.
+1
Hitler definately made a lot of mistakes when it came to production etc. He was the one who ordered the Tiger to be released to the front, when engineers told him it's not ready...hence the mechanical problems.

P.S. I just found out the german MG42 machine gun was one of the best, if not the best, light machine gun in the war.

"The MG34 has a proven record of reliability, durability, simplicity, and ease of operation, but is most notable for being able to produce a stunning volume of suppressive fire. The MG42 has one of the highest average rates of fire of any single-barreled light machine gun, between 1,200 and 1,500 rpm, resulting in a distinctive muzzle report. There were other automatic weapon designs with similar firepower at its inception, such as the Hungarian-Gebauer single-barreled tank MGs and the Russian 7.62 mm GShak aircraft gun. However, the MG42's belt-feed and quick-change barrel system allowed for more prolonged firing in comparison to these weapons."

"So distinct and terrifying was the weapon, that the United States Army created training films to aid its soldiers in dealing with the psychological trauma of facing the weapon in battle."

Score another one for the germans.
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      06-30-2008, 05:51 PM   #21
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And the US had better equipment than the NVA and Vietcong. Germany was fighting an uphill battle from the get go. The navy was not ready so they could not defeat Britain. The invasion of the USSR was premature. The war was pretty much lost by their failure to destroy the BEF at Dunkirk.
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      06-30-2008, 07:23 PM   #22
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And the US had better equipment than the NVA and Vietcong. Germany was fighting an uphill battle from the get go. The navy was not ready so they could not defeat Britain. The invasion of the USSR was premature. The war was pretty much lost by their failure to destroy the BEF at Dunkirk.
The way I see it, if they would have won the Battle of Stalingrad, URSS would have fallen and the world would have been in big trouble.
But failure to supply the 6th Army was one of Hitlers biggest mistakes.
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