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      06-21-2008, 02:41 AM   #1
swamp2
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E92 M3 and C63 AMG car swappin' and corner weighin'

Met up with Hans D this evening to get our cars corner weighed and to take each others cars for a quick spin. We met at Mission Viejo high school auto shop (Orange County, CA) and member kenwlech provided the scales and lift and his nicely maintained E36 M3.

Weight numbers were completely consistent with my previously posted results (within 10 lb from the dump scales as posted in the main forum section). This time with 1/4 tank (about 27 lb of fuel) and driver (160 lb)

FL: 951 FR: 946
RL: 910 RR: 900

F/R balance came in at 51%/49% (don't recall BMWs official spec on this and whether or not it includes a driver and or full tank).

We also got the car up on the lift to look around underneath but you can't see too much due to the extensive coverings for aerodynamic purposes and and the darn M-DCT is COMPLETELY hidden less one small part of a mounting structure.

IIRC the C63 AMG came in right around 4000lb even with full tank. Then probably a mighty 4100 with Hans in the drivers seat .

Not enough time from either of us behind the others wheel but enough time for some basic impressions. The car looks way better in the dark silver color than any other color IMO. The wheels and brakes are beautiful. Definitely a big car, it is so big it makes its 255 x 18 rears look a bit small. Inside, the highlight of the interior is those seats. Beautiful and very racy. Much firmer than the M3s seats and the best part is how high up the side bolsters offer support. In that particular regard I would rate the seats way better than the M3. It really seemed like the seats should be swapped to properly suit each cars character. The sound of that big V8 is pretty glorious as well, part V8 Mustang and part E46 M3, more of the former though! Sounds much louder and meaner than the M3 until you get the M3 really singing. The car is certainly fast. We did not push it all the way as it is not quite broken in but is is fast. Feels awfully close to the same power to weight as the M3 (which it is - corrected for both with a full tank and no driver they calculate out at M3: 8.77 lb/hp, C63 AMG 8.75 lb/hp, identical for all practical purposes). I don't think I felt as much of an "effortless fast" at low rpm as some have noted. I spent quite a bit of time playing with the transmission and it is darn good (for a slushbox ). I simply could not believe how smooth the higher shifts from say 3-4 at high rpm were. Butter. Slightly more lag between paddle grab and upshifts than the M-DCT but the upshifts happened after less lag and are accompanied by a nice throttle blip. Shifts are fast but nowhere near as fast as M-DCT. As well I definitely like the way you can dial down to super smooth all the way up to faster and with the surge. The MB only has two auto modes, and one paddle mode. Supposedly though the transmission has more "hidden modes" as according to Hand it constantly and intelligently adapts to your current driving style (i.e. level of agressiveness). In the lower D modes the M-DCT is darn close to as smooth as the MBs 7 speed.

Would be great fun to "beat on" the cars back to back on some twisties or at the track but we pretty much know the results there as the journalists opinions are united and the track times are consistent with those opinions. I'm sure Hans would smoke me in either car though at the track.

A great way to end my week. Thanks again Hans! Maybe you can add your impressions of the M3 and the M-DCT. As one of the long term members here who "left the fray" without going the M3 route and going with one of its best competitors, you'll have to let us know your thoughts.
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      06-21-2008, 03:04 AM   #2
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Good write-up and proves that each of these cars in this sector (M3, C63, IS-F & RS4) are all as good as each other only with small differences in character.

I agree after seeing the C63 is that colour and in person it looks a heck of a lot better, plus the seat and steering wheel feels just right, though might be a little tight for guys of a bigger frame.
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      06-21-2008, 05:03 AM   #3
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I was torn between these two cars, I understand the M3DCT can do much better against it. Any thoughts?
thks for the post

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      06-21-2008, 09:58 AM   #4
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Having driven an SL63 I would have to agree that the 63 engine dont do "effortless fast" as most believe and need to be worked quite hard.
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      06-21-2008, 11:25 AM   #5
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Quote:
IIRC the C63 AMG came in right around 4000lb even with full tank. Then probably a mighty 4100 with Hans in the drivers seat .
so Hans is 4'-9" and 100#?

Swamp , you have the CF roof or MR?
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      06-21-2008, 11:58 AM   #6
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Very nice post swamp, thanks for taking the time to offer that write-up.
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      06-21-2008, 02:00 PM   #7
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My Coupe is CF roof. Hans posted a short write up with pics here.

Quote:
Originally Posted by footie View Post
Good write-up and proves that each of these cars in this sector (M3, C63, IS-F & RS4) are all as good as each other only with small differences in character.
As much as the cars are reasonable good competitors in the three important departments of looks, handling and character I would take the M3 absolutely hands down over the C63 - and I did.
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      06-21-2008, 03:26 PM   #8
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Here are the pics of my piggy on the scales. Now I'm going to type up some thoughts....
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      06-21-2008, 04:11 PM   #9
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now we want the pic of the scale with you in it! LoL!
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      06-21-2008, 04:35 PM   #10
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M3 or C63?

Fine dining? or Cheeseburger?

What I admire, appreciate and aspire to? Or what makes me comfortable, content and ultimately satisfied?

(The supermodel? Or the loving wife? )

These are how I'd compare my experience with these two cars, and yes... it's completely subjective. My thoughts aren't really about the numbers and performance figures, it's about why one person would choose one car over another. IMO, while the character of these cars is very different, their performance ability on the street is strikingly similar.

If you don't want to wade through the bs of my mental process, scroll down to the symbol below to see my short "review"

Otherwise:
To be thorough, I should preface my thoughts by rewinding a little bit, to explain how I arrived where I did. Two years ago, in 2006, I was one year into my wait on the M3, and $500 dollars away from sealing the deal on a lightly used C55 (yes an MB!) to drive "while I waited for the M3" (dumb reason to buy a car: "while I'm waiting" but that's yet another story) The dealer finally came to 500 dollars within my asking price on the C55, it was a good deal, but by that time, I'd been negotiating for 2 hours. I'd had too much time to think about laying down that cash, got cold feet, decided I'd rather keep my money, and walked. Interesting parallel to my personality, perhaps. I think when I just have to fight too hard for something... and it becomes frustrating for me... maybe, things aren't meant to go that way.

Two months after I walked on the C55 deal, I bought one of the very first BMW Z4 M Coupes. It's a stunning car, and I love BMWs. I bought it from an out of state dealer and had it shipped... so I'd never test driven one. I sold it 8 months later because ... I didn't like it. That's another story too!

Anyhow... last month I gave up waiting on the M3 and bought the C63 instead. I had been thinking about it, I test drove it, and this particular car, in the color I wanted, just fell into my lap. My gut said this is what I needed to do. Why? I just felt more comfortable going with the C63. I took into account all the cars I've gone through, and why I've enjoyed some, and got rid of others quickly (and lost my money)....
And (this is the important part!) despite the fact I had admired everything the M3 represents (the F1 heritage, the BMW brand, the engineering), appreciated the leading-edge technology and BMW for putting it in the car, and aspired to put myself in driver's seat.... The C63 is the car that appeals to me in ways that in my REALITY, are a better fit. I'm not justifying, or rationalizing. The C63, despite wearing the MB logo, and being 4000 lbs, is more in my automotive comfort zone... yes, even as an enthusiast. While I appreciate and admire the capabilities of the M3, knowing me, and what I've enjoyed in my cars in the past... is simplicity and what I'd call "worry-free" driving. That I feel I have that, in the C63, is what makes it right for me.

Simple stuff like a plain old slushbox and fixed suspension... inferior to the M3 with DCT and EDC? YES. But for me? NO. Instead it makes me feel that this simple car is easier to use, less things to go haywire, and those things affect me every time I get in the car. Perception is reality. I think I have finally figured out what truly makes me happy, and satisfied. I didn't want to make another car-buying mistake.


BUT, I suppose here is where I contradict myself. My impressions of M-DCT were not what I expected. First of all, at takeoff, "around town" ... it felt very "normal." I was not sitting there thinking "oh my gawd this is a high tech piece of machinery and what if it breaks?!" Because DCT feels just like a very smooth automatic. You can't feel the gear changes, it's unreal. And the lag on takeoff people are chattering about? I felt no lag. The only lag might have been my timid foot, fearing that I'd unleash an uncontrollable beast if I dropped the hammer!

swamp put the car in the most aggressive shift mode, and floored it down a nice smooth straight. WOW WOW WOW. This is THE BEST transmission I've ever felt in a street car. It's what I'd think a sportbike was like. That baaHHH baaHHH baaHHH, just accelerating and banging off gears. I can't imagine better acceleration than this DCT is capable of. It puts ALL the power to the ground. This "surge" debate... I won't go there. I'll just say that there was no doubt in my mind that the surge is just a byproduct of INCREASED acceleration, nothing else. It's not there so we can be entertained. It's surging because the car isn't tempering the shifts to keep us comfy, it's putting ALL the power to the ground, in the instant it shifts. IT IS GREAT.

So, buy the DCT. It's a winner. As I told swamp and ken afterward, if I'd had the chance to get a ride like the one I just got, I probably would have waited for my M3 Sedan w/DCT. The DCT makes the car, because... the experience is unique and it IMPROVES the performance of the car. I don't want to upset you manual guys though either. I think DCT is having some teething pains according to the board. But at this point, I can say that this "unit" felt very stout. I have full confidence in the hardware and it is already a great piece in its present form. The glitches can be overblown when we start reading about them on the internet. In person, in reality, it feels good.

If I could go back 6 weeks and do it all again, knowing what I know NOW, I still would make the same choice! That might not make sense... but I've had time to live with the C63, and it really is what I'm looking for. The M3 has superior technology as far as performance, but the C63 has the ease of use, and it's the fast German tank I've been seeking for several years.

Everyone wants to know which one is faster. My answer: on the street, they're the same. My car felt a little sluggish yesterday to be honest... and I think the heat affects the AMG (uhh, that's what i've read on the internetss) but I'm sure it affects the M3 as well. All I know swamp... is that as I motored home at almost midnight last night, with the external temp reading 72 degrees... I got serious wheelspin off the line. YAY! The car felt like a different animal. Not THAT much different, but enough to think temperature did hamper our fun in the late afternoon 100 degree sun.

This has been an extensive ramble and I'm sure I left out at least 50% of what I intended to say, and added 50% of boring useless info.. but... there are my intial impressions.

swamp and I are open for further questions! Thanks ken and swamp for the opportunity!
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      06-21-2008, 05:00 PM   #11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sayemthree View Post
now we want the pic of the scale with you in it! LoL!
Well... I do like big cheeseburgers. Which is why the C63 suits my tastes. I'm crass, loud, and beer-swilling, and make no apologies for it. Just like the AMG

However there are no pics of the scale at that point.
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      06-21-2008, 05:12 PM   #12
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Thanks guys for taking the time for the session and for comparison info in the write-ups.
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      06-21-2008, 06:12 PM   #13
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      06-21-2008, 06:58 PM   #14
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Hans Delbruck View Post
(The supermodel? Or the loving wife? )
What you can't have both!? Damn!

Been there, done that...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Hans Delbruck View Post
If I could go back 6 weeks and do it all again, knowing what I know NOW, I still would make the same choice! That might not make sense... but I've had time to live with the C63, and it really is what I'm looking for. The M3 has superior technology as far as performance, but the C63 has the ease of use, and it's the fast German tank I've been seeking for several years.
I'm happy for you Hans. Seems you got exactly what you were looking for; you already have a dialed in track car so I can understand where you're coming from. Thanks for your observations and enjoy your axe murderer!
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      06-21-2008, 07:23 PM   #15
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I'm less than two weeks from receiving my M3 and I think about the C63 like I do about that girl I never had the courage to ask out. Hopefully the M3 doesn't turn out like my wife.
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      06-21-2008, 07:25 PM   #16
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Quote:
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I'm less than two weeks from receiving my M3 and I think about the C63 like I do about that girl I never had the courage to ask out. Hopefully the M3 doesn't turn out like my wife.
that's the saddest thing ever

fuck C63, irvine is full of them already. i saw like 5 just yesterday in irvine. they're ugly as shit.
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      06-21-2008, 07:31 PM   #17
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ///Mantis View Post
that's the saddest thing ever

fuck C63, irvine is full of them already. i saw like 5 just yesterday in irvine. they're ugly as shit.

C'mon man.... can we keep this thread civil? I restrained myself from saying all the great things about the C63 so you little kids wouldn't get your underoos in a bunch. Have fun going out tonight eating sushi with shallow women.....

BTW I love sushi AND cheeseburgers!

Oh AND... "I saw like 20 M3's yesterday"... they were all sitting on a dealer lot, waiting for some sucker to buy them. Two can play this game, so let's not get started. It will only end up at the track, with your Bimmer getting schooled by a Honda with a big ricey wing!
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      06-21-2008, 07:36 PM   #18
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ihyln View Post
Hopefully the M3 doesn't turn out like my wife.
I'll assume you mean beautiful, discriminating... high maintenance.

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      06-21-2008, 07:36 PM   #19
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It's California, if you don't see at least 10 other people drive what you drive you either have no taste or are Amish.
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      06-21-2008, 07:42 PM   #20
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Quote:
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It's California, if you don't see at least 10 other people drive what you drive you either have no taste or are Amish.
LOL. Amish!!

I drive A LOT, and have only seen one other C63 on the road. That's the thing about the C63, you have to really LOOK to know the difference between it and a regular C... they both have dual exhausts in the rear.

There really aren't that many C63's on the road... I don't believe ya Mantis. And even if I did, well then, there are 5 more drivers with very good taste out there.
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      06-21-2008, 07:44 PM   #21
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Quote:
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C'mon man.... can we keep this thread civil? I restrained myself from saying all the great things about the C63 so you little kids wouldn't get your underoos in a bunch. Have fun going out tonight eating sushi with shallow women.....

BTW I love sushi AND cheeseburgers!

Oh AND... "I saw like 20 M3's yesterday"... they were all sitting on a dealer lot, waiting for some sucker to buy them. Two can play this game, so let's not get started. It will only end up at the track, with your Bimmer getting schooled by a Honda with a big ricey wing!
shhhhh maybe im jealous no not really.... MB drivers are dicks and they gonna try to smoke me now, and if they do im gonna be pissed and do dangerous things to make them total their cars

oh shit civil civill... yah my bad...

wait, what's sushi and what's cheeseburger?
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      06-21-2008, 07:45 PM   #22
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Quote:
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It's California, if you don't see at least 10 other people drive what you drive you either have no taste or are Amish.
or ur driving a SLR... but yah ur right
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